OT: Electric vehicles

BABYBULL24

Junior
Oct 15, 2006
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So we don't have the Lithium to create these batterys and they are an environmental nightmare to get rid of...lithium batteries pollute everything around them and you can't recycle them.

lol - you electric car idiots are lost....lost
 

fsg2

All American
Apr 3, 2018
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So we don't have the Lithium to create these batterys and they are an environmental nightmare to get rid of...lithium batteries pollute everything around them and you can't recycle them.

lol - you electric car idiots are lost....lost

Sure dude. I guess the entire auto industry is lost, because EVs are now the direction in which it's rapidly accelerating.

At least until distilled water becomes the new miracle fuel.
 

BABYBULL24

Junior
Oct 15, 2006
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Actually distilled water could be used in a combustion engine...do your your research sir... already patent on it. Oopps or just plain water...lol
 

mildone

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It will be the best selling EV in the US if they can produce enough of them.
It’s the first EV, already being sold, that I’ve had some real interest in acquiring. Only things holding me back are the range and the fact that I really have no need for something that large and would prefer a midsized SUV to a full-size truck.

But still, it’s great looking, has lots of utility, and looks to be well made from a company that knows how to build pickup trucks.
 

fsg2

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Apr 3, 2018
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It’s the first EV, already being sold, that I’ve had some real interest in acquiring. Only things holding me back are the range and the fact that I really have no need for something that large and would prefer a midsized SUV to a full-size truck.

But still, it’s great looking, has lots of utility, and looks to be well made from a company that knows how to build pickup trucks.

Also smart that it shares the dimensions of the regular F-150 so works out of the box with the existing aftermarket.
 

WhichReligionIsRight

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Why wouldn't you read what I post first? Try calming down and weighing costs vs benefits. Have you noticed the economy is tanking and inflation is our of control? Spending an extra $250,00 per school bus hardly seems.like a prudent use of money considering the miniscule benefits.

I only responded to the daffy comment that diesel emissions aren't harmful to human health. Now this has turned into a cost-benefit analysis. Where will the goalposts have moved to for the next post?
 

mildone

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Software update that has to be done at dealership. Seems like both manufacturers have some work to do on this front.
Given the inherent security issues, and this is very much an area in which I have expertise, I won't be surprised to see all automotive software updates wind up requiring a trip to a dealership or other brick-and-mortar facility. The manufacturers are working the problem from their end, but it's being worked hard from the hacking end too at the moment. It's far from clear if manufacturers can stay ahead.

The same is true for a lot of other connected devices (e.g. TVs). But having one's TV hacked is a little less concerning than having one's car hacked.

Ultimately, OTA updates may wind up a feature too far. But we'll see.
 

mildone

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I certainly didn't see the George Soros card being played on this, but here you go.

It's mind-boggling just how much rabid partisanship has caused our society to devolve in the past decade or so. Now having jobs is a bad thing because it's "them" creating the jobs, not "us". Insane.

Kemp apparently wants to do the right thing by his constituents. The other guy would rather cut off his constituents nose to spite his face over an entirely meaningless 100% ideological invention. And plenty of folks in GA will actually applaud him for doing it. Unbelievable.

When people use the term "woke" seriously (on either side of the political spectrum), I start deducting IQ points by the dozens. As if having an activist mentality is limited to only one side.

So irritating that people can be so monumentally and stupidly hypocritical about a thing and be utterly clueless about it.
 
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goru1869

All American
Nov 16, 2005
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Who is living with it? Non issue.

Frankly, the issues with brown outs/black outs has been a bigger problem in Texas than California.
Again, tell people who have to live with it. Our power grid is not ready. You and I will be long gone before the infrastructure is in place. MOST people can't afford an EV. Good night.
 

BABYBULL24

Junior
Oct 15, 2006
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Here it is - an H2O/Water engine. All you need to do is separate the 2 Hydrogen molecules from the Oxygen molecule and you can run an engine or power your house or free energy . No searching for rare earth elements or non recycle batteries to fallow the Earth....the Feds know all this shit since the 1930s. No emissions just water vapor.

 

Pils86

Senior
Sep 21, 2008
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Here it is - an H2O/Water engine. All you need to do is separate the 2 Hydrogen molecules from the Oxygen molecule and you can run an engine or power your house or free energy . No searching for rare earth elements or non recycle batteries to fallow the Earth....the Feds know all this shit since the 1930s. No emissions just water vapor.

Energy is required to separate the hydrogen. The tanks also need to be very high pressure to have enough hydrogen for reasonable range, which can be an issue in collisions. EV's everyone can charge at home, not the case for hydrogen.
 

WhichReligionIsRight

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Energy is required to separate the hydrogen. The tanks also need to be very high pressure to have enough hydrogen for reasonable range, which can be an issue in collisions. EV's everyone can charge at home, not the case for hydrogen.

Hydrogen fuel cell cars have been around a while. I imagine folks remember Ahnold's fuel cell Hummer.

Presently, there are only 50 or so hydrogen fueling stations in all of North America (most are in California). An incredible amount of infrastructure will have to created before this becomes a viable and mainstream automotive fuel option.
 

BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap

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Hydrogen fuel cell cars have been around a while. I imagine folks remember Ahnold's fuel cell Hummer.

Presently, there are only 50 or so hydrogen fueling stations in all of North America (most are in California). An incredible amount of infrastructure will have to created before this becomes a viable and mainstream automotive fuel option.
Hydrogen is a fools errand for personal passenger vehicles. Logistically, it will never be cost competitive with batteries. Busses and freight maybe if you have localized production, transport, and fueling.
 

BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap

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So we don't have the Lithium to create these batterys and they are an environmental nightmare to get rid of...lithium batteries pollute everything around them and you can't recycle them.

lol - you electric car idiots are lost....lost
Lithium ion batteries are currently being recycled by dozens of companies all over the world with >95% recovery rate of all metals. The recycling effort continues to expand rapidly with many new startups and vehicle manufactures starting their own recycling. You don't take highly valuable metals, already in a purified, refined state, and throw them in a landfill. Your argument is straight out of the fossil fuel industry handbook.....from 20 years ago. At least get some modern bullshit to sling.
 

fsg2

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Hydrogen is a fools errand for personal passenger vehicles. Logistically, it will never be cost competitive with batteries. Busses and freight maybe if you have localized production, transport, and fueling.

It's a fool's errand to make blanket statements about what's going to happen in such an evolving space. A decade ago, people were saying the same about EVs, which was equally foolish.

H FC vehicles came out of the gate with solid range figures and they're working on a number of different solutions for onboard storage to improve how much viable propulsion energy can be carried, including storage in liquid form and storage in solids. There are also some hydrogen combustion engines out there.

No idea if any of it will work out, but there's enough activity in the space not to discount it. Do agree that it's better for large vehicles currently.
 

BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap

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It's a fool's errand to make blanket statements about what's going to happen in such an evolving space. A decade ago, people were saying the same about EVs, which was equally foolish.

H FC vehicles came out of the gate with solid range figures and they're working on a number of different solutions for onboard storage to improve how much viable propulsion energy can be carried, including storage in liquid form and storage in solids. There are also some hydrogen combustion engines out there.

No idea if any of it will work out, but there's enough activity in the space not to discount it. Do agree that it's better for large vehicles currently.
Hydrogen isn't a new technology. The problems of 20 years ago are the same today. Production (which is a highly energy inefficient process btw), storage, and transportation are all continuous costs. Add to that the infrastructure that needs to be built out. A hydrogen infrastructure would be vastly more expensive than EV charging infrastructure.
Given this, how could hydrogen ever be cost competitive with battery EVs for personal vehicles? Charging an EV is already extremely cheap. I'd love to be wrong, but I'm not alone with those that don't see a way.
 

BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap

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Energy is required to separate the hydrogen. The tanks also need to be very high pressure to have enough hydrogen for reasonable range, which can be an issue in collisions. EV's everyone can charge at home, not the case for hydrogen.
Don't think he thought of that.
 

fsg2

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Hydrogen isn't a new technology. The problems of 20 years ago are the same today. Production (which is a highly energy inefficient process btw), storage, and transportation are all continuous costs. Add to that the infrastructure that needs to be built out. A hydrogen infrastructure would be vastly more expensive than EV charging infrastructure.
Given this, how could hydrogen ever be cost competitive with battery EVs for personal vehicles? Charging an EV is already extremely cheap. I'd love to be wrong, but I'm not alone with those that don't see a way.

Electricity isn't a new technology, either. Neither is the EV.

Hydrogen's energy density is too attractive to give up on when battery packs remain deficient in that category. Which is why they haven't.
 

LBusDoor90

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Aug 31, 2007
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Don't think he thought of that.
The willingness of those 2 H atoms to give up their single electrons to an O atom thirsty to complete its outermost energy level with those 2 to make a stable octet is one of the most cozy and difficult to break up in all of chemistry. Sure, if abundant clean energy of some kind is available to break their bond, then maybe renewable farms and power plants with massive basements could store the H to time shift needed power from sunny daytime or windy nighttime to when it's needed. Compressing it for mobile propulsion is a dead end based on basic scientific and engineering logic (unless maybe you are a natural gas company looking for another place to sell each methane molecule's 4 H atoms....which would liberate a C atom to make troublesome CO2 unless it is captured).
 

WhichReligionIsRight

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It's a fool's errand to make blanket statements about what's going to happen in such an evolving space. A decade ago, people were saying the same about EVs, which was equally foolish.

H FC vehicles came out of the gate with solid range figures and they're working on a number of different solutions for onboard storage to improve how much viable propulsion energy can be carried, including storage in liquid form and storage in solids. There are also some hydrogen combustion engines out there.

No idea if any of it will work out, but there's enough activity in the space not to discount it. Do agree that it's better for large vehicles currently.

I took a serious look at fuel cell vehicles when purchasing a new car (~ 2 years ago). In the Sacramento Region, there are three hydrogen fuel stations. Checking closer, the three pumps were closed - heat-related issues. (Can't pump if it's too hot outside.) I've spot checked a few times since and found that the pumps were frequently out of service - heat, no fuel available.

If you live in New Jersey, good luck. The nearest fueling station is in Quebec. Canada. Not a joke.


My take on this is hydrogen fuel cells are many years away - probably decades - from making a significant inroads as a viable automotive fuel option. Maybe we will read about massive public and private sector investment into locating fuel cell pumps at gas stations, but don't hold your breath.

I could go on about this topic, but will leave it here for now.
 

fsg2

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I took a serious look at fuel cell vehicles when purchasing a new car (~ 2 years ago). In the Sacramento Region where I live there are three hydrogen fuel stations. When I checked a little closer, three pumps were closed - heat-related issues. (Can't pump if it's too hot outside.) I've spot checked a few times since and found that the pumps were frequently out of service - heat, no fuel available.

If you live in New Jersey, good luck. The nearest fueling station is in Quebec. Canada. I am not kidding.


My take on this is hydrogen fuel cells are many years away - probably decades - from making a significant inroads as a viable automotive fuel option. Maybe we will read about massive public and private sector investment into locating fuel cell pumps at gas stations, but don't hold your breath.

I could go on about this topic, but will leave it here for now.

That's a fair take. I don't expect them to make a dent anytime soon.

I'm more interested in hydrogen power for aircraft, where H's light weight could help zero emissions crafts fly farther than fuel planes, let alone electric. Fueling would be more concentrated that way, too, as it could be for car/ride-share fleets (on the ground and in the air) in cities.
 

BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap

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The willingness of those 2 H atoms to give up their single electrons to an O atom thirsty to complete its outermost energy level with those 2 to make a stable octet is one of the most cozy and difficult to break up in all of chemistry. Sure, if abundant clean energy of some kind is available to break their bond, then maybe renewable farms and power plants with massive basements could store the H to time shift needed power from sunny daytime or windy nighttime to when it's needed. Compressing it for mobile propulsion is a dead end based on basic scientific and engineering logic (unless maybe you are a natural gas company looking for another place to sell each methane molecule's 4 H atoms....which would liberate a C atom to make troublesome CO2 unless it is captured).
Your post made me think of atmospheric CO2 capture, which I do hear about from time to time. Sounds like a similar problem to Hydrogen in that an energy input is necessary to break that cozy, stable bond. Plants are very good at it, could we? Any thoughts?
 

BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap

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That's a fair take. I don't expect them to make a dent anytime soon.

I'm more interested in hydrogen power for aircraft, where H's light weight could help zero emissions crafts fly farther than fuel planes, let alone electric. Fueling would be more concentrated that way, too, as it could be for car/ride-share fleets (on the ground and in the air) in cities.
Perhaps production via solar directly on airport property (they have the land).
 
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Scarlet4Shore

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I had a patient 10-15 years ago who was brought out to Oklahoma to trial his theory of solar panels on top of school buses, since there was very little interference from trees in the areas they were trialing, and there should be enough surface area on the top of the bus to provide the power it needs.
 

HeavenUniv.

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