Ah, right. I forgot about that one. I actually am okay with a number of the provisions in that bill. Although again, I have a feeling lawsuits might water it down some.
But yes, sorry - I will try to resist the side-discussions. My bad.
OT: Electric vehicles
- Thread starter BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap
- Start date
But yes, sorry - I will try to resist the side-discussions. My bad.
Both sides are frustrated right now. Look at Bidens polling with his base and how many don't want him to run in 2024. After this bill was announced, there was a climate group protesting because they felt it did not go far enough. It is both sides.
This is why it's so good to hang out in the center and play for neither team. The frustration can still be there, but it's so much less intense, so much less of a factor in my life.
I highly recommend it.
And now I'm going fully on-topic; no more side discussions. Probably.
Nah, join me in derailing this thread and making it a trainwreck like the world. LOL. Just kiddin. Carry on.
It is remarkable how the USA has cut the use of coal (and oil) for electrical energy production. Just 22 years ago, over half of electric energy generation was from coal - now it is just over 20%. The USA burns less than half the amount of coal we used to. Acid rain in the northeast has been largely reversed. Burning less coal has certainly played a role.
Electricity sector of the United States - Wikipedia
What happened to acid rain? How the environmental movement won — and could again
Scientists and policymakers turned what once was considered a "serious environmental problem" into a success story.
www.cbsnews.com
Nat gas has replaced coal in a lot of plants in the US and really should continue to do so. Coal is just a terrible fuel and much of China’s pollution issues have to do with coal playing such a major role in electricity generation (63% of their electricity generation). I’m in PA and have been following the story of how the Sierra Club finally won in court to get a large coal plant near Harrisburg converted to nat gas. The transition will be complete in the next couple of years. AG’s in NJ and CT were involved as well since the pollution from the plant affected the eastern seaboard.It is remarkable how the USA has cut the use of coal (and oil) for electrical energy production. Just 22 years ago, over half of electric energy generation was from coal - now it is just over 20%. The USA burns less than half the amount of coal we used to. Acid rain in the northeast has been largely reversed. Burning less coal has certainly played a role.
Electricity sector of the United States - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
What happened to acid rain? How the environmental movement won — and could again
Scientists and policymakers turned what once was considered a "serious environmental problem" into a success story.
Last edited:
Looks like a Tesla fan trying to hate on F150 Lighting. It looks like the F150 was braking instead of pulling. The wheels were locked and the brake lights were on. I would like to see a more professional test.
Biden had zero to do with coming up with this bill..stop lying
Talk about lies...the admin is lying about multiple issues right now to your face playing words games not to mention multiple disasters with cdc lying
I dont want to get the thread shut down. Why do you keep injecting politics and calling out one side. Dont bring Fox up when we clearly have evidence from msm and Dems lying as well. Its a stupid political xargument to make
Well, the Senate just passed the bill. Here's a summary (from CNN) on what is in the bill WRT to EVs and climate change. A huge investment in clean energy and EVs.
Extending tax credits for electric vehicles made it in, after previous opposition from Manchin. The tax credits would continue at their current levels, up to $4,000 for a used electric vehicle and $7,500 for a new one. However, the income threshold for eligibility would be lowered -- a key demand of Manchin's.
The bill also contains 10-year consumer tax credits to bring down the cost of heat pumps, rooftop solar, electric HVAC and water heaters. It includes $60 billion of funding for environmental justice communities and for the reduction of legacy pollution.
And it puts $60 billion towards domestic clean energy manufacturing and $30 billion for a production credit tax credit for wind, solar and battery storage.
The bill provides $4 billion in additional drought funding -- a key negotiation point for Sinema amid the multi-year drought in the Southwest -- Democrats confirmed on Thursday afternoon.
The tax credits will be technology neutral -- meaning they won't favor renewables over fossil fuels outfitted with carbon-reducing measures. However, they are designed to reward those who reduce their emissions the most, according to Senate Finance Chairman Ron Wyden, a Democrat from Oregon.
The deal also includes major provisions like a methane program that would levy a fee on oil and gas producers that emit methane above a certain threshold. It also includes $27 billion for a so-called clean energy accelerator -- essentially a green bank that will leverage public and private funding to expand more green projects.
Extending tax credits for electric vehicles made it in, after previous opposition from Manchin. The tax credits would continue at their current levels, up to $4,000 for a used electric vehicle and $7,500 for a new one. However, the income threshold for eligibility would be lowered -- a key demand of Manchin's.
The bill also contains 10-year consumer tax credits to bring down the cost of heat pumps, rooftop solar, electric HVAC and water heaters. It includes $60 billion of funding for environmental justice communities and for the reduction of legacy pollution.
And it puts $60 billion towards domestic clean energy manufacturing and $30 billion for a production credit tax credit for wind, solar and battery storage.
The bill provides $4 billion in additional drought funding -- a key negotiation point for Sinema amid the multi-year drought in the Southwest -- Democrats confirmed on Thursday afternoon.
The tax credits will be technology neutral -- meaning they won't favor renewables over fossil fuels outfitted with carbon-reducing measures. However, they are designed to reward those who reduce their emissions the most, according to Senate Finance Chairman Ron Wyden, a Democrat from Oregon.
The deal also includes major provisions like a methane program that would levy a fee on oil and gas producers that emit methane above a certain threshold. It also includes $27 billion for a so-called clean energy accelerator -- essentially a green bank that will leverage public and private funding to expand more green projects.
How does this impact Rutgers in the Boston College game? 🤣
At least you did not post a link to porn.
I should not have brought that up. The poor guy took a beating for that.
Is there an income limit for Federal EV tax credit? I was told no.
The tax credit for union made vehicles was abandoned. A good thing as a union made EV is no cleaner than a non-union EV.
Tax credit for hybrids is still waaaaay too high. A hybrid with a puny 5-7 kWh battery pack (which most hybrids are), is a poorly disguised ICE.
I'm curious how the battery material credit is going to be enforced:
The bill includes rising requirements for the percentage of North American battery components by value in order to qualify for EV incentives and would disallow any batteries after 2023 with any Chinese components. Last week, Senator Marco Rubio sought to toughen the standards further to ensure EV credits can apply only if the EV battery’s critical minerals are sourced in the United States or from a country with which the United States has a free trade agreement
Many different metals go into a pack. Supplier contracts constantly change. Battery chemistries change also. Who's responsible for keeping track of all this?
Tax credit for hybrids is still waaaaay too high. A hybrid with a puny 5-7 kWh battery pack (which most hybrids are), is a poorly disguised ICE.
I'm curious how the battery material credit is going to be enforced:
The bill includes rising requirements for the percentage of North American battery components by value in order to qualify for EV incentives and would disallow any batteries after 2023 with any Chinese components. Last week, Senator Marco Rubio sought to toughen the standards further to ensure EV credits can apply only if the EV battery’s critical minerals are sourced in the United States or from a country with which the United States has a free trade agreement
Many different metals go into a pack. Supplier contracts constantly change. Battery chemistries change also. Who's responsible for keeping track of all this?
Respectfully disagree on hybrids. The way I look at it, those who may be pure EV hesitant because of range and charging careers are doing "their part." Let them join the party. And without opening up that can of worms again, hybrids don't have all of those indeterminate pollution issues caused by mining mass quantities of battery materials.
On the Chinese thing, typical political virtue signaling.
Did Manchin get his income threshold in the signed bill? Is there a price limit for the $7,500 tax credit?
Finally, this does not affect the existing program, does it? Can't see how it would. As noted above, my Lightning is $14 over the limit that was proposed in the legislation.
Test drove a Lightning this morning at my dealer. It was the Pro base model. Fun to drive. Acceleration off the line and while cruising was insanely high.
Answering my own questions above, I should be safe:
"Further, vehicles must have an MSRP of under $55K for cars and $80K for SUVs and trucks, otherwise they don’t count, leaving out several Tesla configurations and trucks like the USA-made Rivian. And buyers can only take advantage of the credit if they make under $150K a year – which will likely affect some of these higher-end car buyers.
There is also a provision that allows usage of the previous credit on a car delivered after the bill is enacted if there is a valid purchase order signed in 2022 before President Biden signs the bill, which should happen in the next week or two."
The income limit is BS, particularly for people who live in expensive areas like NY/NJ/CT/California etc. $150K in the southeast is a lot of money. Not so much in high cost of living areas. What this will do is cause the right leaning people who are already predisposed to not buying an EV have another reason to skip buying one. Income limits in legislation need to be more thoughtfully applied.
And $20 Billion to reduce agricultural emissions? Total nonsense. No more cow farting.
Senate improves EV tax credit in largest climate bill ever
The new electric car tax credit is easier to claim and extended to 2032 to US-built EVs, along with a new $4,000 credit on used EVs.
electrek.co
Firstly, I'm on record as saying EVs and hybrids don't need any credit whatsoever..... currently. I think we can all agree there is no demand issues for EVs or hybrids. There are production issues. I'm on board for incentives to increase mining, refining, and recycling of battery metals in the US.
But, since the bill did pass, and hybrids are a part of it, I strongly feel the credit for hybrids should be scaled back and based on the size of the pack. A pure EV is cleaner than a hybrid and should be credited as such. The bloated hybrid credit is a blowjob to legacy auto who are struggling with EV production. I'm sure the dealerships lobby had their say too, who make money servicing hybrids, but want no part of selling pure EVs.
Agree with Knight Shift, some form of locality should be factored in for income limits. Fed gov does it for salaries, NYC and surrounding suburbs pay scale is 35% higher than the standard GS rates.
Why does the article quote Mario Rubio, of all people?
i agree with all of this. The link is to a long Twitter thread on some of the details within the bill.
Chinese absolutely plays the long game. Our "leaders" for the most part are too corrupt to even care about the long game. We are setting up future Americans for serfdom.
They are dominating America. It’s amazing how they’ve cornered the market on EVs via mining, convincing Americans it’s the only way, while building a coal plant a week.
Their leaders get what global domination looks like and are methodically working toward just that. And they will not be the benevolent leaders America was.
Great breakdown for those interested in the bill. Thanks 👍
It's what they call a "mannequin". Weird name. They sell it after they have had a while, surely at a huge markup. All American Ford in Point Pleasant.
It’s pretty much a now or later situation - make your citizens semi slave labor now (China) or mortgage away their future (U.S.) to create a similar case down the road.
With that said, these tax credits and other EV/renewables related incentives are a tiny speck of a drop of that looming disaster. At least they are intended to address a separate looming catastrophe.
I think the link I posted above may address that. The way I read it, once the bill is enacted, the new rules take hold, except if a buyer has a signed contract before Pres. Biden signs the bill.
"There is also a provision that allows usage of the previous credit on a car delivered after the bill is enacted if there is a valid purchase order signed in 2022 before President Biden signs the bill, which should happen in the next week or two."
You or @mildone ?
I'm just happy I will hopefully get in under the wire with the income limit and the $80,000 limit ($14 over the limit).
Nope, not me. I like the brand and all, but have zero purchasing interest in EV sedans or sports cars and that's unlikely to change.
So no Taycan or 718 EV (when it comes out). I have lots of academic interest, though, and look forward to seeing what all the manufacturers bring to the EV table. I might be interested in a hybrid 911, though, depending on the details. OTOH, my current 911 already gets better gas mileage than any car I've owned in the past several decades.
I am, OTOH, interested, from a potential purchase standpoint, to see what the Macan EV (or eventually, Cayenne EV). But pretty sure the range won't yet be where I'd want it yet. And long road-trips is a priority for my next SUV.
And I'm very interested to hear how your experience with your F150 Lightning goes. I'm kind of focused on EV SUVs, but I could see myself getting a truck instead.
More updates/interpretations of the new bill here:
" (Update: This article previously said that the credit would remain unchanged this year, but while much of the bill takes effect next year, the domestic assembly requirement goes into effect immediately upon enactment of the bill, so foreign-made EVs will need a signed purchase order before that time in order to qualify for the current credit) "
the relevant text of the bill, believed to be the relevant part for us (Starting at page 402):
TRANSITION RULE.—Solely for purposes of the 19 application of section 30D of the Internal Revenue Code 20 of 1986, in the case of a taxpayer that—
(1) after December 31, 2021, and before the date of enactment of this Act, purchased, or entered into a written binding contract to purchase, a new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle (as defined in section 30D(d)(1) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as in effect on the day before the date of enactment of this Act), and
2) placed such vehicle in service on or after the date of enactment of this Act, such taxpayer may elect (at such time, and in such form and manner, as the Secretary of the Treasury, or the Secretary’s delegate, may prescribe) to treat such vehicle as having been placed in service on the day before the date of enactment of this Act.
www.f150lightningforum.com
" (Update: This article previously said that the credit would remain unchanged this year, but while much of the bill takes effect next year, the domestic assembly requirement goes into effect immediately upon enactment of the bill, so foreign-made EVs will need a signed purchase order before that time in order to qualify for the current credit) "
the relevant text of the bill, believed to be the relevant part for us (Starting at page 402):
TRANSITION RULE.—Solely for purposes of the 19 application of section 30D of the Internal Revenue Code 20 of 1986, in the case of a taxpayer that—
(1) after December 31, 2021, and before the date of enactment of this Act, purchased, or entered into a written binding contract to purchase, a new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle (as defined in section 30D(d)(1) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as in effect on the day before the date of enactment of this Act), and
2) placed such vehicle in service on or after the date of enactment of this Act, such taxpayer may elect (at such time, and in such form and manner, as the Secretary of the Treasury, or the Secretary’s delegate, may prescribe) to treat such vehicle as having been placed in service on the day before the date of enactment of this Act.
If you are over the income limits (150/300k) of the new bill and haven't gotten your truck....
It sounds like we need a signed purchase order before Biden signs the bill, or we will not receive the $7,500 tax credit. Biden is expected to sign in the next week or two: https://electrek.co/2022/08/07/senate-improves-ev-tax-credit-in-largest-climate-bill-ever/ My build week is this week...
www.f150lightningforum.com
I'm confused. If there are income limits (150/300), aka means-testing, and one exceeds those limits, then how does the timing matter at all? Wouldn't one be excluded from using the credit? Or was there no kind of means-testing prior to the bill being passed?More updates/interpretations of the new bill here:
" (Update: This article previously said that the credit would remain unchanged this year, but while much of the bill takes effect next year, the domestic assembly requirement goes into effect immediately upon enactment of the bill, so foreign-made EVs will need a signed purchase order before that time in order to qualify for the current credit) "
the relevant text of the bill, believed to be the relevant part for us (Starting at page 402):
TRANSITION RULE.—Solely for purposes of the 19 application of section 30D of the Internal Revenue Code 20 of 1986, in the case of a taxpayer that—
(1) after December 31, 2021, and before the date of enactment of this Act, purchased, or entered into a written binding contract to purchase, a new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle (as defined in section 30D(d)(1) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as in effect on the day before the date of enactment of this Act), and
2) placed such vehicle in service on or after the date of enactment of this Act, such taxpayer may elect (at such time, and in such form and manner, as the Secretary of the Treasury, or the Secretary’s delegate, may prescribe) to treat such vehicle as having been placed in service on the day before the date of enactment of this Act.
If you are over the income limits (150/300k) of the new bill and haven't gotten your truck....
It sounds like we need a signed purchase order before Biden signs the bill, or we will not receive the $7,500 tax credit. Biden is expected to sign in the next week or two: https://electrek.co/2022/08/07/senate-improves-ev-tax-credit-in-largest-climate-bill-ever/ My build week is this week...
