OT: Electric vehicles

[Knight Shift]

I'm confused. If there are income limits (150/300), aka means-testing, and one exceeds those limits, then how does the timing matter at all? Wouldn't one be excluded from using the credit? Or was there no kind of means-testing prior to the bill being passed?

The way it is being interpreted presently is that if a buyer has completed the purchase of an eligible EV or has a BINDING CONTRACT to purchase an EV signed before the bill is enacted, the old rules apply, meaning no income limits and limit on price of vehicles. This is all kind of in flux.

But a Ford Lightning reservation is NOT a binding contract. Once your order is executed two deposits are paid. I am working on my dealer to make one of my deposits non-refundable, and to say the contract is binding.

 

[RUevolution36]

California regulator claims Tesla falsely advertised Autopilot, Full Self-Driving

Tesla Inc , the electric car company run by billionaire Elon Musk, has been accused by a California state transportation regulator of falsely advertising its Autopilot and Full Self-Driving features as providing autonomous vehicle control.

www.reuters.com

 

[jtung230]

I called around trying to find a Ford Lighting, no luck. I’ll probably cxl my order with the changes. I already canceled my Silverado order. Will put in an order for a Bronco Wildtrak instead.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

California regulator claims Tesla falsely advertised Autopilot, Full Self-Driving

Tesla Inc , the electric car company run by billionaire Elon Musk, has been accused by a California state transportation regulator of falsely advertising its Autopilot and Full Self-Driving features as providing autonomous vehicle control.

www.reuters.com

Yawn....
Let's do a poll in the thread:
How many Tesla owners need to be better educated about the capabilities and limitations of their ADAS system? Me? I'm good.

Why do you love overregulation so much? Or...you just can't let go of your bizarre hatred for Tesla and Elon.

Any surprise the California DMV is trying to retard Tesla's progress? It's the land of overregulation, bureaucracy and red tape. Plus, they've had it out for Tesla ever since the Elon spoke out about the fascist Fremont factory shutdown. Nor are they too happy about Tesla relocating thier headquarters to Austin. The list of cooperations abandoning California is growing.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adammi...nts-and-president-biden-should-pay-attention/

 

[mildone]

I didn’t read this, and cannot verify it’s accuracy, because I have no dog in this hunt. But some of you, who are hoping for an EV purchase tax credit, will be interested in this, I think.

Virtually No EVs Currently Qualify For Expanded Tax Credits

The devil is in the battery-sourcing details.

www.roadandtrack.com

 

[Knight Shift]

I didn’t read this, and cannot verify it’s accuracy, because I have no dog in this hunt. But some of you, who are hoping for an EV purchase tax credit, will be interested in this, I think.

Virtually No EVs Currently Qualify For Expanded Tax Credits

The devil is in the battery-sourcing details.

www.roadandtrack.com

Saw that analysis in several other places. Never underestimate the power of politicians (of both parties) to virtue signal that they are doing something for someone when actually, they are doing next to nothing for nobody.

As I noted above in another post, the politicians have to decide what the goal is. Is it to purportedly reduce emissions? Then why should there be income means testing or vehicle price caps? Or is this more about helping regular people to get into EVs, which will also purportedly reduce emissions, but what if they reduce the number of people who are financially able to purchase EVs AND willing to buy EVs to the point where a much lower number of EVs are sold. I did not dig in as to why the vote broke on party lines (let's not derail this with political infighting). Were there principled objections to the bill?

 

[mildone]

Saw that analysis in several other places. Never underestimate the power of politicians (of both parties) to virtue signal that they are doing something for someone when actually, they are doing next to nothing for nobody.

As I noted above in another post, the politicians have to decide what the goal is. Is it to purportedly reduce emissions? Then why should there be income means testing or vehicle price caps? Or is this more about helping regular people to get into EVs, which will also purportedly reduce emissions, but what if they reduce the number of people who are financially able to purchase EVs AND willing to buy EVs to the point where a much lower number of EVs are sold. I did not dig in as to why the vote broke on party lines (let's not derail this with political infighting). Were there principled objections to the bill?

I’m somewhat torn on the issue. I want the folks in our little on-line community on this forum to get the tax break if they purchase an EV.

OTOH, I am not really a fan of tax credits for hybrid/EV purchases on principle. I guess I have three reasons for that: (1) I think manufacturers/dealers factor such tax credits into their EV pricing strategy, which inflates the cost of their products, (2) I think we need energy infrastructure improvements more, at the moment, than we need to speed up EV adoption, and (3) I would prefer to see us cut back on government spending where possible, and such tax credits work against that goal.

 

[RUevolution36]

Yawn....
Let's do a poll in the thread:
How many Tesla owners need to be better educated about the capabilities and limitations of their ADAS system? Me? I'm good.

Why do you love overregulation so much? Or...you just can't let go of your bizarre hatred for Tesla and Elon.

Any surprise the California DMV is trying to retard Tesla's progress? It's the land of overregulation, bureaucracy and red tape. Plus, they've had it out for Tesla ever since the Elon spoke out about the fascist Fremont factory shutdown. Nor are they too happy about Tesla relocating thier headquarters to Austin. The list of cooperations abandoning California is growing.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adammi...nts-and-president-biden-should-pay-attention/

I am always pro-consumer....always. Including those consumers dumber than dirt. You are always pro-Tesla because you're brainwashed and in a cult. Until companies stop overselling and underdelivering, I side with protecting the consumer and punishing the companies.

 

[Knight Shift]

Ford has released price increases for 2023 for the F150 Lightning. Feel lucky to get a 2022. They also increased their standard range from 230 to 240 miles.

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2022/08/09/ford-f-150-lightning-standard-range-increased.html

In chart:

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

I am always pro-consumer....always. Including those consumers dumber than dirt. You are always pro-Tesla because you're brainwashed and in a cult. Until companies stop overselling and underdelivering, I side with protecting the consumer and punishing the companies.

How does this protect consumers?

 

[RUevolution36]

How does this protect consumers?

highly deceptive marketing sets expectations of functionality that does not exist. assume everyone is dumb as shit and you can start from there.

 

[jtung230]

Ford has released price increases for 2023 for the F150 Lightning. Feel lucky to get a 2022. They also increased their standard range from 230 to 240 miles.

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2022/08/09/ford-f-150-lightning-standard-range-increased.html

In chart:

This and the changes to the tax credit make it official. Will cancel my order.

 

[mildone]

Ford has released price increases for 2023 for the F150 Lightning. Feel lucky to get a 2022. They also increased their standard range from 230 to 240 miles.

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2022/08/09/ford-f-150-lightning-standard-range-increased.html

In chart:

It's just a guess, of course, but I would bet that Ford had two sets of price increases planned. One for no change in tax credit policy. One adjusted upwards based on tax credit policy.

And I would further bet that those are from the later set of price increases.

I know dealerships, at least for luxury cars, adjust the selling price upwards in their negotiations when folks trade in cars based on the fact that the buyer is saving N dollars in taxes by only having to pay tax on the gap between trade-in and new car costs.

If people think I'm being too cynical, then consider how BMW is trying to force their customers to accept a subscription model to enable various features of their cars. A 100% transparent money grab. And eventually, customers will just accept it, although they're pushing back pretty hard at the moment.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

highly deceptive marketing sets expectations of functionality that does not exist. assume everyone is dumb as shit and you can start from there.

Lol...highly deceptive. Ok, prove it. Surely you have evidence of thousands of Tesla owners who blindly purchased an expensive vehicles and then demanded some type of retribution after being deceived about the capabilities of their ADAS.

We should legislate based on everyone being dumb as shit? I don't think you thought that statement out.

 

[Knight Shift]

It's just a guess, of course, but I would bet that Ford had two sets of price increases planned. One for no change in tax credit policy. One adjusted upwards based on tax credit policy.

And I would further bet that those are from the later set of price increases.

I know dealerships, at least for luxury cars, adjust the selling price upwards in their negotiations when folks trade in cars based on the fact that the buyer is saving N dollars in taxes by only having to pay tax on the gap between trade-in and new car costs.

If people think I'm being too cynical, then consider how BMW is trying to force their customers to accept a subscription model to enable various features of their cars. A 100% transparent money grab. And eventually, customers will just accept it, although they're pushing back pretty hard at the moment.

But as currently written, most buyers of F150 Lightning's will get no tax credit because vehicles will exceed the $80,000 limit.

Ford has joined the subscription game. The Blue Cruise feature is included for 3 years after vehicle purchase, but then the owner has to subscribe to keep it.

 

[mildone]

But as currently written, most buyers of F150 Lightning's will get no tax credit because vehicles will exceed the $80,000 limit.

Ford has joined the subscription game. The Blue Cruise feature is included for 3 years after vehicle purchase, but then the owner has to subscribe to keep it.

I understand (that few will actually benefit from the legislation). That just means that Ford's policy is that much more of a money grab. Incidentally, I'm not saying it's a Ford thing; it's any corporation - they are in business to make money and will generally use whatever approach they can to increase their profitability.

And that's fine; it's up to consumers to push back when necessary, to step away from a purchase if the terms of the purchase are not fair.

I think most auto-manufacturers are looking into leveraging the subscription model. Because of what I said just above. Although they try to market it as a plus for consumers, it's not; it's nothing more than a means of increasing profits.

 

[RUevolution36]

Lol...highly deceptive. Ok, prove it. Surely you have evidence of thousands of Tesla owners who blindly purchased an expensive vehicles and then demanded some type of retribution after being deceived about the capabilities of their ADAS.

We should legislate based on everyone being dumb as shit? I don't think you thought that statement out.

assuming everyone is dumb as shit is a good rule of thumb to go by. because all of you are dumber than me.

 

[mildone]

This and the changes to the tax credit make it official. Will cancel my order.

That's the only way consumers, like you, have to control market prices. If sales suffer, pricing will drop.

And even if jobs remain okay, the combination of inflation, ridiculous dealer markups, and rising interest rates are going to slow people's acquisitiveness with cars. I won't buy a car in the current market unless I somehow wind up with no other option.

 

[mildone]

assuming everyone is dumb as shit is a good rule of thumb to go by. because all of you are dumber than me.

Hey now! 😃

 

[RUevolution36]

Hey now! 😃

alright, with a few exceptions...

 

[Tango Two]

Toyota offering to buy back these recalled electric cars​

Toyota offering to buy back these recalled electric cars

Toyota is now offering to buy back models of a recalled electric SUV crossover because the vehicle had loose hub bolts on the wheel that could detach while the vehicle is in operation

www.nj.com

 

[jtung230]

That's the only way consumers, like you, have to control market prices. If sales suffer, pricing will drop.

And even if jobs remain okay, the combination of inflation, ridiculous dealer markups, and rising interest rates are going to slow people's acquisitiveness with cars. I won't buy a car in the current market unless I somehow wind up with no other option.

Unfortunately, I’m the minority. Demand and prices are crazy right now. People are spending like there is no tomorrow.

 

[Knight Shift]

Unfortunately, I’m the minority. Demand and prices are crazy right now. People are spending like there is no tomorrow.

That is what is crazy about the new F150 prices. Where is all this money coming from. We have been scrupulous savers living well BELOW our means for 30+ years, and this is still a huge splurge for this.

 

[mildone]

alright, with a few exceptions...

LOL. That's okay. I like to maintain that I'm a total idiot (as well as a douchebag), or at least half an idiot savant (but still a full douchebag).

And I find that many people will totally agree with me on all that. 🤣

 

[mildone]

Unfortunately, I’m the minority. Demand and prices are crazy right now. People are spending like there is no tomorrow.

Yep. And it's very unfortunate because it's allowing the crazy jacking up of prices and dealer markups and all. For new and used cars.

GPU (graphics cards) manufacturers have been doing the same because, between people doing crypto-mining whoa are buying up every high-end card they can plus supply-chain driven chip issues, manufacturers have been able to basically dictate insane pricing and get away with it. It's even created a massive scalper market where folks buy at an inflated MSRP then resell GPUs for thousands over that MSRP.

But, and I'm hoping this happens soon with cars, GPU prices are being slashed now because crypto-mining died (for now) leaving more supply than expected and newer products are coming out - so manufacturers are trying to clear out inventory and buyers are refusing to buy older products at their inflated pricing.

I won't be surprised to see the newer GPUs offered at insane pricing again though. Now that the manufacturers see what people are willing to pay, there may be no going back.

 

[mildone]

That is what is crazy about the new F150 prices. Where is all this money coming from. We have been scrupulous savers living well beyond our means for 30+ years, and this is still a huge splurge for this.

Crazed consumerism seems to be driving pricing way, way up for so much stuff. It's not just supply-chain issues.

How else can we explain the, so far, limited effect of interest rate hikes? I'm not an economist or finance guy, but it sure seems like we've been in an unsustainable consumerism trend that started roughly 8 years back and has just been accelerating.

 

[Knight Shift]

Crazed consumerism seems to be driving pricing way, way up for so much stuff. It's not just supply-chain issues.

How else can we explain the, so far, limited effect of interest rate hikes? I'm not an economist or finance guy, but it sure seems like we've been in an unsustainable consumerism trend that started roughly 8 years back and has just been accelerating.

I changed beyond to BELOW in my post. I am still somewhat uneasy about the purchase, not because we can't afford it, but stuck with the notion that I should not spend more than $40K for a vehicle. Will get over it.

 

[jtung230]

I would’ve thought that crypto winter would temper the craziness, like luxury watches. But it hasn’t hit cars yet.

 

[mildone]

I changed beyond to BELOW in my post. I am still somewhat uneasy about the purchase, not because we can't afford it, but stuck with the notion that I should not spend more than $40K for a vehicle. Will get over it.

I knew what you meant before you changed it.

And, although it might seem otherwise, buying cars seems to be the one area in which I mostly hate parting with money. Because, for the most part, they depreciate like mad. And the more they cost, the more profit-margin is built in which makes me feel a little dumb for playing the game.

But whatever. Life is short. Gotta have a little fun, enjoy a little comfort.

 

[jtung230]

It’s the monthly payment game.

 

[mildone]

It’s the monthly payment game.

I, very stupidly as it turns out, paid cash for my last new car (in 2019) - and it was a decent chunk of change. The Porsche finance guy was offering 3.5%, and I'm guessing I could've gotten that down closer to 3%. But I felt the stock market would go bear shortly so I turned it down.

I would've made at least 17% on that money had I just left it alone and financed the damn thing. Just very dumb of me. I mean, the market did wind up taking a dive like I thought, but not nearly as quickly as I thought. I would've paid it off by the time the market dropped.

Oh well. 🤷‍♂️

 

[OntheBanks]

I didn’t read this, and cannot verify it’s accuracy, because I have no dog in this hunt. But some of you, who are hoping for an EV purchase tax credit, will be interested in this, I think.

Virtually No EVs Currently Qualify For Expanded Tax Credits

The devil is in the battery-sourcing details.

www.roadandtrack.com

Here's another article:

Most electric vehicles won’t qualify for Inflation Reduction Act tax credit

A tax credit of up to $7,500 could be used to defray the cost of an electric vehicle under the Inflation Reduction Act now moving toward final approval in Congress.

nypost.com

 

[mildone]

Here's another article:

Most electric vehicles won’t qualify for Inflation Reduction Act tax credit

A tax credit of up to $7,500 could be used to defray the cost of an electric vehicle under the Inflation Reduction Act now moving toward final approval in Congress.

nypost.com

Congress being congress.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

Some incredible stats for Tesla. I didn't realize the Fremont plant is the biggest auto plant in the country.

 

[Knight Shift]

Some incredible stats for Tesla. I didn't realize the Fremont plant is the biggest auto plant in the country.

View embedded media

That Tesla plant was originally a joint venture between Toyota and GM in the 1980s called the New United Motor Manufacturing, Inc (NUMMI). Prior to that, it was the worst GM plant in the nation. Toyota sent GM workers to training in Japan: "Workers who made the transition identified the emphasis on quality and teamwork by Toyota management as what motivated a change in work ethic." "Almost right away, the NUMMI factory was producing cars at the same speed as the Japanese factories and Corollas produced at NUMMI were seen as equal in quality to those produced in Japan with a similar number of defects per 100 vehicles."

Tesla moved in 2010.

NUMMI - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[jtung230]

Some incredible stats for Tesla. I didn't realize the Fremont plant is the biggest auto plant in the country.

View embedded media

Isn’t this plant rumor to close because of unionization?

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

Isn’t this plant rumor to close because of unionization?

Lol...only in the TSLAQ bubble.
Zero chance that happens.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

Some incredible stats for Tesla. I didn't realize the Fremont plant is the biggest auto plant in the country.

View embedded media

If you're impressed with Fremont (generation 1), wait until you see what Tesla does in Shanghai(gen 2) the 2nd half of this year. Shanghai alone will do 1 million EVs next year. Then of course we have Berlin and Austin (gen 3) with cathode and battery production on site. Next gigafactory will be announced by the end of the year. Truly amazing how fast they're scaling up while maintaining high profitability.

 

[Knight Shift]

If you're impressed with Fremont (generation 1), wait until you see what Tesla does in Shanghai(gen 2) the 2nd half of this year. Shanghai alone will do 1 million EVs next year. Then of course we have Berlin and Austin (gen 3) with cathode and battery production on site. Next gigafactory will be announced by the end of the year. Truly amazing how fast they're scaling up while maintaining high profitability.

Saw that Musk sold off a lot of Tesla stock.

 

[mildone]

Saw that Musk sold off a lot of Tesla stock.

He has been doing that for about a year in order to prep for the Twitter purchase, should it go through. At least that’s what he says.