OT: Electric vehicles

[NewJerseyGuy]

“EV battery fires burn hot and long. CT firefighters may be ill-equipped to handle them.”​

“Despite the growing popularity of electric vehicles in Connecticut, firefighters across the state have received little to no training on how to combat the intense fires that can erupt in their specialized high-voltage batteries, fire officials say.”

“[T]hey tend to be involved in more complex fires that are harder to put out. Among the challenges posed by electric vehicle fires are extreme heat and the potential for the lithium-ion batteries to continuously re-ignite, even long after the flames have been doused.”

EV battery fires burn hot and long. CT firefighters may be ill-equipped to handle them.

According to a 2020 report by the National Transportation Safety Administration, it can...

www.stamfordadvocate.com

 

[Rutgers Chris]

“EV battery fires burn hot and long. CT firefighters may be ill-equipped to handle them.”​

“Despite the growing popularity of electric vehicles in Connecticut, firefighters across the state have received little to no training on how to combat the intense fires that can erupt in their specialized high-voltage batteries, fire officials say.”

“[T]hey tend to be involved in more complex fires that are harder to put out. Among the challenges posed by electric vehicle fires are extreme heat and the potential for the lithium-ion batteries to continuously re-ignite, even long after the flames have been doused.”

EV battery fires burn hot and long. CT firefighters may be ill-equipped to handle them.

According to a 2020 report by the National Transportation Safety Administration, it can...

www.stamfordadvocate.com

Typical disinformation put out by big fire lobby, unions, etc to get new fire trucks and hoses

 

[mildone]

Troll denied

“BMW confirmed that the crash had involved one of its models and that the vehicle was equipped with Level 2 driver assistance systems. In such cases 'the driver always remains responsible', a spokesperson said in an emailed statement.”

Yeah, Level 2 means your hands should be on the wheel.

Big troll fail.

I cannot speak for NJ guy, but for me, posting such stuff about Level 2 assistance provides yet more evidence that Level 2 driver assistance systems should probably be banned.

In the case of a car that veers into oncoming traffic, as seemed to happen in the cited case, it can happen in a heartbeat and even if the driver was somewhat alert with hands on the wheel, it's possible that the driver assistance could wrench the wheel causing an accident before the driver could react. The driver's gonna have to allow the car to do it's thing to some extent and gripping the wheel super tightly and refusing the wheel adjustments entirely ain't gonna work.

OTOH, it's not really a comment on EVs so much as the fatally flawed concept behind Level 2 driver assistance. It's just that automakers seem to be mostly putting these systems into their EVs.

 

[fsg2]

I cannot speak for NJ guy, but for me, posting such stuff about Level 2 assistance provides yet more evidence that Level 2 driver assistance systems should probably be banned.

In the case of a car that veers into oncoming traffic, as seemed to happen in the cited case, it can happen in a heartbeat and even if the driver was somewhat alert with hands on the wheel, it's possible that the driver assistance could wrench the wheel causing an accident before the driver could react. The driver's gonna have to allow the car to do it's thing to some extent and gripping the wheel super tightly and refusing the wheel adjustments entirely ain't gonna work.

OTOH, it's not really a comment on EVs so much as the fatally flawed concept behind Level 2 driver assistance. It's just that automakers seem to be mostly putting these systems into their EVs.

Level 3, maybe, not Level 2.

Terrible driving doesn't start with assistive tech.

 

[mildone]

Why did you post the article? Kinda random for this thread since it ultimately had nothing to do with the vehicle being electric.

The Daily Mail should probably never be linked unless it's to make fun of.

I agree it's not about the car being electric, although aren't most level 2 assistance systems being put into EVs?

And I totally agree that Daily Mail is a propaganda site, much like HuffPo, and as such, who even knows if a link to an article there is being reported in a factually correct and complete way.

 

[fsg2]

I agree it's not about the car being electric, although aren't most level 2 assistance systems being put into EVs?

And I totally agree that Daily Mail is a propaganda site, much like HuffPo, and as such, who even knows if a link to an article there is being reported in a factually correct and complete way.

They're in both ICE and EVs. Hyundai Highway Driving Assist, as an example, is in a variety of both.

 

[mildone]

They're in both ICE and EVs. Hyundai Highway Driving Assist, as an example, is in a variety of both.

Yeah, but aren't the majority of them in EVs? In any event, it's been discussed a lot in this thread prior to today, and it is a much touted feature in Tesla's, and under investigation by the NHTSA, and was mentioned earlier today in the following post...

https://rutgers.forums.rivals.com/threads/ot-electric-vehicles.221435/post-5816310

So I mean, while I'm not disputing that it was intended somewhat as an anti-EV trolling post of sorts, the fact remains that NJ guy isn't the first to bring up Level 2 driver assistance in the context of EVs in this thread.

 

[Rutgers Chris]

Yeah, but aren't the majority of them in EVs? In any event, it's been discussed a lot in this thread prior to today, and it is a much touted feature in Tesla's, and under investigation by the NHTSA, and was mentioned earlier today in the following post...

https://rutgers.forums.rivals.com/threads/ot-electric-vehicles.221435/post-5816310

So I mean, while I'm not disputing that it was intended somewhat as an anti-EV trolling post of sorts, the fact remains that NJ guy isn't the first to bring up Level 2 driver assistance in the context of EVs in this thread.

I had the same thing in a Nissan Altima

 

[fsg2]

Yeah, but aren't the majority of them in EVs? In any event, it's been discussed a lot in this thread prior to today, and it is a much touted feature in Tesla's, and under investigation by the NHTSA, and was mentioned earlier today in the following post...

https://rutgers.forums.rivals.com/threads/ot-electric-vehicles.221435/post-5816310

So I mean, while I'm not disputing that it was intended somewhat as an anti-EV trolling post of sorts, the fact remains that NJ guy isn't the first to bring up Level 2 driver assistance in the context of EVs in this thread.

No ...is what I was saying in a few extra words😋

https://www.cars.com/articles/which-cars-have-self-driving-features-for-2022-2-448458/

 

[letitrip2]

“EV battery fires burn hot and long. CT firefighters may be ill-equipped to handle them.”​

“Despite the growing popularity of electric vehicles in Connecticut, firefighters across the state have received little to no training on how to combat the intense fires that can erupt in their specialized high-voltage batteries, fire officials say.”

“[T]hey tend to be involved in more complex fires that are harder to put out. Among the challenges posed by electric vehicle fires are extreme heat and the potential for the lithium-ion batteries to continuously re-ignite, even long after the flames have been doused.”

EV battery fires burn hot and long. CT firefighters may be ill-equipped to handle them.

According to a 2020 report by the National Transportation Safety Administration, it can...

www.stamfordadvocate.com

Yawn - more rehashed misinformation. The data is clear - ICE vehicles have fires at a far greater rate than BEV's. but don't let facts get in the way of a good narrative.

 

[OntheBanks]

How long have you had your Escape?
Which model?
Did you consider other models such as Rav4 Prime?
Would you recommend it over the Rav4 Prime?

My goal was to get a PHEV because I drive less than 30 miles a day and electric would cover most of my driving. I've got 600 miles on my Escape right now and have used only 46 miles on gas.
I initially looked at Hyundai Ioniq PHEV but by the time I was ready to buy they discontinued the model. I loved the Ioniq 5 but didn't want to spend that much. I moved on to looking at the Hyundai Tuscan but could not find any. Even checked a dealer in Connecticut but dealers could not get them delivered. Frustrated with supply chain cars I turned to Ford. Escape is made in Louisville. I did a test drive at our very large local dealer and loved the car. I sat down with the salesman to work out a deal and then he informed me he just found out the car was already sold and they had no others on the lot. So I hit the internet to search for another dealer that had the Escape and found one in the eastern edge of Brooklyn. I went there and the white Escape that they advertised had been sold. However, they had a blue one. Sold. I drove it home 23 miles all on gas since they never charged it. So half the gas mileage I've used since June 29th was on my trip home.
No, I didn't look at the RAV4 because I heard they were also having supply train problem.
I suggest you google comparisons of the Escape, RAV4 and Tuscan. and check out some youtube videos of test drives.
For someone like me a PHEV is a better choice than a full electric. I plug in at home using Level 1 connector that is provided. I have a outlet on the side of my house in the driveway and plug in when I get home from any running around I do during the day. Car is rated 37 miles on a full charge but I'm getting better than that. According to the display in the car I'm getting 4.2 miles per kWh.

 

[letitrip2]

Some IRS guidance on the new rules for the legislation signed today affecting eligible EV Rebates:

"Vehicles Purchased and Delivered between August 16, 2022 and December 31, 2022

If you purchase and take possession of a qualifying electric vehicle after August 16, 2022 and before January 1, 2023, aside from the final assembly requirement, the rules in effect before the enactment of the Inflation Reduction Act for the EV credit apply (including those involving the manufacturing caps on vehicles sold). If you entered into a written binding contract to purchase a new qualifying vehicle before August 16, 2022, see the rule above. "

Other stuff in link below on how vehicles not finally assembled in US do or do not qualify, depending on whether buyer has a binding contract.

Credits for new electric vehicles purchased in 2022 or before | Internal Revenue Service

If you bought or leased a new, qualified plug-in electric vehicle (EV) in 2022 or before, you may be eligible for a clean vehicle tax credit up to $7,500 under IRC 30D.

www.irs.gov

That new EV credit law is another in a long line of well intentioned legislative fiasco's. If the congress did even a little research they would know that the main issue with BEV adoption is supply not demand. That $7500 is going right to the bottom line of the companies that build the cars -and that is mainly Tesla. Musk to his credit several months ago was quoted as saying credits should not be increased or expanded.

 

[RUevolution36]

Tesla Model S Plaid Road Test Review: The new American muscle sedan

Our Road Test of the Tesla Model S Plaid where we dive deep into everything you might want to know about the ultra-quick Plaid.

www.autoblog.com

The more journos who pile on the yoke hate, the better it is for the consumers at large. What a dumb idea.

 

[newell138]

Looks like the inflation reduction act rebate for buying an EV will be offset by the increase in prices. Coincidentally it’s for about the same amount as the rebate

Ford raises price of electric F-150 Lightning by up to $8,500 due to 'significant' battery cost increases

The starting prices for the F-150 Lightning will range from about $47,000 to $97,000, up from roughly $40,000 to $92,000.

www.cnbc.com

 

[Knight Shift]

My goal was to get a PHEV because I drive less than 30 miles a day and electric would cover most of my driving. I've got 600 miles on my Escape right now and have used only 46 miles on gas.
I initially looked at Hyundai Ioniq PHEV but by the time I was ready to buy they discontinued the model. I loved the Ioniq 5 but didn't want to spend that much. I moved on to looking at the Hyundai Tuscan but could not find any. Even checked a dealer in Connecticut but dealers could not get them delivered. Frustrated with supply chain cars I turned to Ford. Escape is made in Louisville. I did a test drive at our very large local dealer and loved the car. I sat down with the salesman to work out a deal and then he informed me he just found out the car was already sold and they had no others on the lot. So I hit the internet to search for another dealer that had the Escape and found one in the eastern edge of Brooklyn. I went there and the white Escape that they advertised had been sold. However, they had a blue one. Sold. I drove it home 23 miles all on gas since they never charged it. So half the gas mileage I've used since June 29th was on my trip home.
No, I didn't look at the RAV4 because I heard they were also having supply train problem.
I suggest you google comparisons of the Escape, RAV4 and Tuscan. and check out some youtube videos of test drives.
For someone like me a PHEV is a better choice than a full electric. I plug in at home using Level 1 connector that is provided. I have a outlet on the side of my house in the driveway and plug in when I get home from any running around I do during the day. Car is rated 37 miles on a full charge but I'm getting better than that. According to the display in the car I'm getting 4.2 miles per kWh.

Thanks for all the great information.
No complaints?
Did you get the SE or SEL model?

I have a Ford Maverick with an Ecoboost (non-hybrid) engine. My F150 Lightning should be delivered by year end, probably November. My wife will get rid of her 2013 car with a lot of miles, and she was going to take my Maverick. But the MPG has been terribly disappointing, and we really don't need two pickups. So we are considering either selling the Maverick and buying an Escape hybrid, or trading it in. I see my same model truck selling for $4-8,000 more than what I paid for it. If I can get a good trade, which also offsets the sales tax on the Escape, we may just trade in.

I saw on one YouTube video that the Escape Plug In Hybrid does not get the full $7500 tax credit--something like $6,800?

 

[jtung230]

Not all that strange. Auto manufacturers make statements about future plans all the time and then change course as needs dictate.

Some states have been creating aggressive targets for no longer permitting sales of ICEVs. And many/most auto manufacturers have been issuing statements about their EV plans. But I'm pretty sure that, in most cases, these government and manufacturer plans are subject to adjustment given potential changing conditions.

One example of a potential changing condition is if there are ongoing supply chain issues that impact EVs more than ICEVs. People need cars and manufactures need sales. So plans are good, but we'll see what happens.

I don't claim to know what will happen with this stuff. But I've been a car guy since I was 10 years old and I've seen tons of announcements that didn't work out exactly as stated. I see no reason not to think EV transition plans are any different.

It's also entirely within the realm of possibility that some manufacturers (or states) will advance EV changeover or ICEV cut-off targets. Again, we'll have to wait and see.

you have to face it. change is here.

Dodge unveils new electric muscle car concept that could replace the Challenger and Charger

Dodge on Wednesday unveiled a new concept car called the Charger Daytona SRT as a preview of its first all-electric muscle car, expected in 2024.

www.cnbc.com

 

[RUevolution36]

you have to face it. change is here.

Dodge unveils new electric muscle car concept that could replace the Challenger and Charger

Dodge on Wednesday unveiled a new concept car called the Charger Daytona SRT as a preview of its first all-electric muscle car, expected in 2024.

www.cnbc.com

“This is not a science project,” he said. “It looks like a Dodge, sounds like a Dodge and drives like a Dodge.”

Is this a good thing?

 

[jtung230]

“This is not a science project,” he said. “It looks like a Dodge, sounds like a Dodge and drives like a Dodge.”

Is this a good thing?

Depends. Will have to wait on the final product.

 

[mildone]

you have to face it. change is here.

Dodge unveils new electric muscle car concept that could replace the Challenger and Charger

Dodge on Wednesday unveiled a new concept car called the Charger Daytona SRT as a preview of its first all-electric muscle car, expected in 2024.

www.cnbc.com

I am not claiming change isn’t occurring. I’m saying that I am skeptical that all the targets and plans will be met and achieved in the timeframes being stated. That the change will be slower, in many cases, than expected.

 

[OntheBanks]

Thanks for all the great information.
No complaints?
Did you get the SE or SEL model?

I have a Ford Maverick with an Ecoboost (non-hybrid) engine. My F150 Lightning should be delivered by year end, probably November. My wife will get rid of her 2013 car with a lot of miles, and she was going to take my Maverick. But the MPG has been terribly disappointing, and we really don't need two pickups. So we are considering either selling the Maverick and buying an Escape hybrid, or trading it in. I see my same model truck selling for $4-8,000 more than what I paid for it. If I can get a good trade, which also offsets the sales tax on the Escape, we may just trade in.

I saw on one YouTube video that the Escape Plug In Hybrid does not get the full $7500 tax credit--something like $6,800?

I have the SEL. Also, at my income I will get much less of a tax break then $6.800. If you're going to sell you should go to CarMax in Edison next to Top Golf. I sold my 2017 Honda Civic there and the process took less than an hour and got 23K for a car I paid $24K.

 

[Knight Shift]

I have the SEL. Also, at my income I will get much less of a tax break then $6.800. If you're going to sell you should go to CarMax in Edison next to Top Golf. I sold my 2017 Honda Civic there and the process took less than an hour and got 23K for a car I paid $24K.

I did not think the tax credits were changed based on income?

 

[Caliknight]

Looks like the inflation reduction act rebate for buying an EV will be offset by the increase in prices. Coincidentally it’s for about the same amount as the rebate

Ford raises price of electric F-150 Lightning by up to $8,500 due to 'significant' battery cost increases

The starting prices for the F-150 Lightning will range from about $47,000 to $97,000, up from roughly $40,000 to $92,000.

www.cnbc.com

Companies always win.

 

[OntheBanks]

I did not think the tax credits were changed based on income?

I should have said that I will not pay close to $6,800 in taxes because of being retired and on Pension & Social Security.

 

[newell138]

I am not claiming change isn’t occurring. I’m saying that I am skeptical that all the targets and plans will be met and achieved in the timeframes being stated. That the change will be slower, in many cases, than expected.

at best you may see 50/50 gas/EV by the year 2040 is my estimate, which is based on Zero research or knowledge. There will always be a need for gas powered vehicles until the battery technology improves as well as the charging infrastructure

 

[mildone]

at best you may see 50/50 gas/EV by the year 2040 is my estimate, which is based on Zero research or knowledge. There will always be a need for gas powered vehicles until the battery technology improves as well as the charging infrastructure

You could be right.

My take is that there are way too many variables involved and tech is progressing far too fast now for me to feel comfortable making too many long term guesses about technology-related things like energy and motor-vehicles and so forth.

I wouldn't be at all shocked if some other energy technology arises and overtakes EVs before they reach 50% market-share in the US. But I also won't be surprised to see EVs get a nice long run before that happens.

We'll see.

 

[RUevolution36]

Porsche explores hydrogen combustion with virtual V8

Porsche talks about some of its hydrogen engine research and virtual testing of a modified 4.4-liter V8.

www.autoblog.com

 

[newell138]

We'll see.

Hopefully

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

at best you may see 50/50 gas/EV by the year 2040 is my estimate, which is based on Zero research or knowledge. There will always be a need for gas powered vehicles until the battery technology improves as well as the charging infrastructure

>50% of new car sales will be EVs before the end of this decade in the US. Some European countries are already there today. China is also on a faster track than the US.

Don't think linear growth. EV adoption is an exponential.

 

[newell138]

>50% of new car sales will be EVs before the end of this decade in the US. Some European countries are already there today. China is also on a faster track than the US.

Don't think linear growth. EV adoption is an exponential.

that may be, but i was referring to vehicles on the road. Cant see the average commuter being able to use. I work from home full time now so the only time i get in the car is to go on a road trip or vacation.

 

[RUevolution36]

>50% of new car sales will be EVs before the end of this decade in the US. Some European countries are already there today. China is also on a faster track than the US.

Don't think linear growth. EV adoption is an exponential.

the average age of cars on the road in the US is 12 years. it's going to take quite a while for the cars on the road to cycle out and get to a point where EV's make up a majority of cars in use. If half of new car buys in 2030 are EV's (in this country), it still means the other 50% of cars will stay on the road into the 2040s.

 

[mildone]

Porsche explores hydrogen combustion with virtual V8

Porsche talks about some of its hydrogen engine research and virtual testing of a modified 4.4-liter V8.

www.autoblog.com

This is why they, and Audi, are very interested in joining F1 when the new engine regulations take effect, in 2026. The regulation call for hybrid V6 engines that are similar to what they're using now, but use even more electrical power than today's formula and, crucially, use 100% sustainable synthetic fuel to power the ICE. Porsche and others in the industry have been seeking ways to produce that synthetic and cleaner burning fuel, which may well involve stuff they learn from their work with hydrogen. Although not at the start, in 2026.

What lures Porsche/Audi (and potentially others) to F1 is F1's interest in pursuing cutting edge sustainable, ecologically improved, relevant technologies.

I'm pretty excited about it. Not quite as excited as Porsche releasing the 992 GT3-RS to their configurator (I really, really, really want one). But still, pretty excited. Alas, the GT3RS probably ain't happening, for me at least, because the "real" selling price is likely to be around $500K instead of the ~$250K MRSP and I ain't gonna pay that much over MSRP for any car that I play to actually drive regularly.

 

[mildone]

Hopefully

I was thinking exactly that as I typed it. LOL

Ain't no guarantees for any of us.

 

[mildone]

the average age of cars on the road in the US is 12 years. it's going to take quite a while for the cars on the road to cycle out and get to a point where EV's make up a majority of cars in use. If half of new car buys in 2030 are EV's (in this country), it still means the other 50% of cars will stay on the road into the 2040s.

And I think it likely that while EV adoption is fast paced right now, the early adopters are going to pan out and then there will be lots of people who aren't so interested, be it due to legitimate reasons like range or price or lack of charging infrastructure in their homes (apartments and hi-rise condos and so forth), or for less legitimate reasons like pseudo-ideological pressure.

And realities of EV ownership, aging and range-depleted batteries, costs of replacing those batteries, etc. might factor in and some adopters may wind up wishing they had an ICE or hybrid instead. The future can be hard to predict.

I just think there are roadblocks that evangelists dismiss out of hand but non-evangelists and people who aren't in the throes of recent purchase confirmation bias will not dismiss so readily.

But who knows. We'll have to wait and see (if we can).

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

>50% of new car sales will be EVs before the end of this decade in the US. Some European countries are already there today. China is also on a faster track than the US.

Don't think linear growth. EV adoption is an exponential.

Agreed. The growth projections for EV fleets keep getting torn up because the growth rates keep expanding. I expect we will see EV deployment growth rates like Norway's and California's in other countries and states very soon.

 

[Knight Shift]

My insurance experience with the Volvo xc 60 recharge a PHEV was interesting
I was debating between the Volvo and the Tesla model Y. The insurance on the a
Tesla was almost 3500 per year( I live in South Florida) The insurance on the Volvo is 1300 per year actually less than the 1400 that I am paying for my 4 year old Kia Sorrento ICE even though the Volvo cost 61k vs the Kia 41k ( when it was brand new)

Have you driven the XC60, and if yes, what has your real world electric range been?

 

[Knight Shift]

Just bought a Volvo XC60 hybrid here in Denver. Gets my wife to and from work without the use of gas. Have had it for 10 days now with no issues.

How is the electric range- is it truly 35 miles?

 

[Knight Shift]

Have you driven the XC60, and if yes, what has your real world electric range been?

I see you had already answered this. We are considering an S60 Plug-In Hybrid Extended Range, with an advertised electric range of 41 miles.

I don't know if this has been covered yet as I am too lazy to read through 122 pages but i just got the 2022 Volvo XC60 PHEV Extended range. For me it is the best of both worlds. The 35-40 miles of Electric range covers 95% of the driving that I do. If I have to evacuate from a hurricane( I live in S Florida) I have well over 500 miles of total electric and gasoline range. I charge the car in my garage as needed . So far in about 400-500 miles of driving I do not think that I have used a gallon of gas as of yet. The PHEV is not for everyone but if most of your driving is local and you need more than 300+/- of total range it is the perfect solution.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

ANyone yet bring up how the upcoming (potential) tax breaks have already been mitigated by car brands raising pricing a similar amount?

Its crazy.. the whole bill amounts to a roundabout way to shovel money to automakers. And worse.. ALL taxpayers will pay for it.. they get nothing.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

Agreed. The growth projections for EV fleets keep getting torn up because the growth rates keep expanding. I expect we will see EV deployment growth rates like Norway's and California's in other countries and states very soon.

Humans have difficulty conceptualizing exponential growth.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

ANyone yet bring up how the upcoming (potential) tax breaks have already been mitigated by car brands raising pricing a similar amount?

Its crazy.. the whole bill amounts to a roundabout way to shovel money to automakers. And worse.. ALL taxpayers will pay for it.. they get nothing.

Agree. No need (currently) to subsidize EVs. Production is the issue, not demand.

I keep hearing how the Chevy Bolt (bare bones) will come in under $20k with the credit. For that price, it's a great deal, IMO. But, let's see what GM and the dealerships have to say about that.