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OT: Electric vehicles

I’d rather be faster from 0-100mph than 100-200mph.
I'd rather be faster in corners than straight lines. Corners are where all the serious fun's to be found.

That Lambo would presumably be a lot faster than a Model X (or S) Plaid through corners. It has substantial weight, mechanical grip, and downforce advantages that, combined, are very hard to overcome when it comes to being fast through high speed corners.

But no doubt EVs and hybrids are going to hold all the records for straight line.
 
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I like how you guys are whinging about losing to a family SUV.
I'll offer you the same thing I offer my other Tesla friends.

Wanna settle it? Here to Pittsburgh.

Add @mildone's point about high-speed handling to the fact that no Tesla can do the 360 miles at any kind of high speed and not have to stop - maybe twice, depending on which Tesla we're talking about.

That, right there, is what matters to me. When I do road, it's a competition - even if it's only with myself. The blistering quarter miles... It's really cool, and certainly acceleration from 60 is meaningful, but... it's not everything. And a Model X Plaid isn't how I'd spend $140,000.

If I was going to spend that kind of money on a car... I'd probably get a Jag F-Type 575 and pocket 25 grand.
 
For the millionth time, hybrids are not zero-emission vehicles. They are marginally EVs, but with all the parts and fluids of an ICE vehicle.
The first part depends on what the other power source is. A fuel cell vehicle with battery is a ZE hybrid.

Also, did anyone call them ZE?
 
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The first part depends on what the other power source is. A fuel cell vehicle with battery is a ZE hybrid.

Also, did anyone call them ZE?

Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (example Mirai from Toyota) are considered ZEV. There are no fuel cell-battery hybrids that I am aware of.
 
For the millionth time, hybrids are not zero-emission vehicles. They are marginally EVs, but with all the parts and fluids of an ICE vehicle.

You could repeat that ten million times. I still won’t care. The thread title says electric vehicles, not zero emission vehicles. Lots of us are talking about and excited by hybrid technology which embraces electrification as a vehicular technology while also retaining the advantages of gas engines.

If that offends your extremist views, well, sorry not sorry. I remain a fan of all vehicle types.
 
Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (example Mirai from Toyota) are considered ZEV. There are no fuel cell-battery hybrids that I am aware of.
Maybe not in the US, but they're out there. Renault has been a leader in the area, specifically with its vans.
 
New Battery technology is coming and its going to make a huge difference in range

 
New Battery technology is coming and its going to make a huge difference in range

Interesting and would be great if it proves out. Gonna need more details before I reach for the champagne though. In particular, I’d like to know a realistic timeframe in which these new batteries can be supplied to auto manufactures.
 
New Battery technology is coming and its going to make a huge difference in range

The advances made in battery technology over the next 10 years will be wild.

500-1000 miles range will be the norm and charging times will be reduced.
 
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The advances made in battery technology over the next 10 years will be wild.

500-1000 miles range will be the norm and charging times will be reduced.
This has been promised for a long time. I’ll believe it when I see it.
 
This has been promised for a long time. I’ll believe it when I see it.
Correct. Building a few hundred cells in a lab vs manufacturing thousands of cells/hour is a different universe. Prototypes are easy (relatively speaking), production is hard. The secret sauce is the manufacturing system, not the battery cells themselves.
 
Correct. Building a few hundred cells in a lab vs manufacturing thousands of cells/hour is a different universe. Prototypes are easy (relatively speaking), production is hard. The secret sauce is the manufacturing system, not the battery cells themselves.
Translation: Whatever it happens to be that Tesla is doing well at the moment is the secret sauce.

We understand.
 
It really hasn’t though outside of gimmick headlines. Range has been steadily increasing every year. With EVs hitting critical mass and the several very real new technologies that are in test, range will continue to grow.
There's little doubt that range will improve a lot, along with battery tech in general.

Will it get to 1000 miles in passenger cars? Bit more doubt. Will the specific technology being discussed in the article be usable in automotive industry manufacturing soon? Even more doubt.

The resident Teslerati here tried to give me shit, a year or so back, for saying I'm waiting for an SUV with a real-world range of 500+ miles and some better public charging infrastructure before getting an EV. Because, as I was told, range isn't going to get that good.

But I'm sure it will within, just a matter of time - under 10 years or so is my guess. Some EVs claim to be there already, at least by advertisement. But I'm not so sure about 1000 mile range in an common passenger vehicle. That seems like it might take a bit longer.
 
There's little doubt that range will improve a lot, along with battery tech in general.

Will it get to 1000 miles in passenger cars? Bit more doubt. Will the specific technology being discussed in the article be usable in automotive industry manufacturing soon? Even more doubt.

The resident Teslerati here tried to give me shit, a year or so back, for saying I'm waiting for an SUV with a real-world range of 500+ miles and some better public charging infrastructure before getting an EV. Because, as I was told, range isn't going to get that good.

But I'm sure it will within, just a matter of time - under 10 years or so is my guess. Some EVs claim to be there already, at least by advertisement. But I'm not so sure about 1000 mile range in a common passenger vehicle. That seems like it might take a bit longer.
I think in 10 years 1000miles will definitely be more of the outer range exception. I think that much range is overkill. 500-750 will probably be pretty normal.
 
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I think in 10 years 1000miles will definitely be more of the outer range exception. I think that much range is overkill. 500-750 will probably be pretty normal.
I don't know if 1000 miles is overkill but I think auto manufacturers will see it as unprofitable.

I know I'm like a broken record about this, but I think public charging infrastructure improvements are crucially important. I know the improvements are taking place. But it needs to happen much, much more quickly to meet the targets some states like CA are putting out there for ending ICE sales.

Otherwise, even with 500 mile range, people who don't live in a situation that permits at-home overnight charging will not be happy EV owners. Not an issue for those of us who can charge at home. Big issue for everybody else.

Those folks need to be assured of reliably finding a rapid public charger without any lines. I think we need to see chargers everywhere there's a parking space (parking decks, parking lots). And everywhere there's a parking meter, there should be a charger.

Basically, if you park anywhere, you can charge right there. That's the goal, IMO. Then range only remains an issue for people making really long drives (which is where the 1000 miles of range could help).
 
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@jtung230 :WooHoo:

A 120-Year-Old Company Is Leaving Tesla in the Dust​

"Tesla’s veneer of irreverence conceals an inflexible core, an old-fashioned corporate autocracy. Consider Tesla’s remote work policy, or lack thereof."

"Ford also tends to make good on its promises, an area that’s become increasingly fraught for Tesla. Ford said it would offer a hands-free driver assist system, and now it does, with BlueCruise; you can take your hands off the steering wheel when it is engaged on premapped sections of highway."

"If you want to pay $15,000 for a feature that’s currently subject to a National Highway Traffic Safety Administration recall whose filing is titled “Full Self-Driving Software May Cause Crash,” don’t let me stop you, but a Tesla engineer also recently testified that a company video purporting to show the system in flawless action was faked."

"Tesla’s long-promised new vehicles, like the Cybertruck and a new version of its Roadster, also keep getting delayed."

"Sure, Ford sold only 15,617 electric F-150 Lightning pickups in 2022, but that beats the Cybertruck’s sales by, let’s see, 15,617."

 
More accolades for the F150 Lightning:

"there are a few that you can buy, including the Rivian R1T, the Hummer EV and the Ford F-150 Lightning. The latter, to me, is the most interesting, because the Lightning has to cater to not only EV early adopters, but it also has to win over people who buy normal trucks."

 

@jtung230 :WooHoo:

A 120-Year-Old Company Is Leaving Tesla in the Dust​

"Tesla’s veneer of irreverence conceals an inflexible core, an old-fashioned corporate autocracy. Consider Tesla’s remote work policy, or lack thereof."

"Ford also tends to make good on its promises, an area that’s become increasingly fraught for Tesla. Ford said it would offer a hands-free driver assist system, and now it does, with BlueCruise; you can take your hands off the steering wheel when it is engaged on premapped sections of highway."

"If you want to pay $15,000 for a feature that’s currently subject to a National Highway Traffic Safety Administration recall whose filing is titled “Full Self-Driving Software May Cause Crash,” don’t let me stop you, but a Tesla engineer also recently testified that a company video purporting to show the system in flawless action was faked."

"Tesla’s long-promised new vehicles, like the Cybertruck and a new version of its Roadster, also keep getting delayed."

"Sure, Ford sold only 15,617 electric F-150 Lightning pickups in 2022, but that beats the Cybertruck’s sales by, let’s see, 15,617."

Ouch! I mean, it's just one (unnamed, so far as I could see) person's viewpoint. But damn. 🤣

Ultimately, I think Tesla will be fine once it abandons its "we can do whatever we want" stupidity which only ever worked when they were the only competitor in the game. They finally figured out that they had to offer a steering wheel, right?

Musk seems to be the biggest problem. His type of disdain for employees rarely works out well for modern companies, at least in the US. But he's very smart. So I'm guessing he's maybe starting to realize he's causing himself a lot of headaches.

Only question I have is if Musk's capacity for business intelligence can weigh higher in his decision-making than his capacity for ego. Let's hope so.
 

@jtung230 :WooHoo:

A 120-Year-Old Company Is Leaving Tesla in the Dust​

"Tesla’s veneer of irreverence conceals an inflexible core, an old-fashioned corporate autocracy. Consider Tesla’s remote work policy, or lack thereof."

"Ford also tends to make good on its promises, an area that’s become increasingly fraught for Tesla. Ford said it would offer a hands-free driver assist system, and now it does, with BlueCruise; you can take your hands off the steering wheel when it is engaged on premapped sections of highway."

"If you want to pay $15,000 for a feature that’s currently subject to a National Highway Traffic Safety Administration recall whose filing is titled “Full Self-Driving Software May Cause Crash,” don’t let me stop you, but a Tesla engineer also recently testified that a company video purporting to show the system in flawless action was faked."

"Tesla’s long-promised new vehicles, like the Cybertruck and a new version of its Roadster, also keep getting delayed."

"Sure, Ford sold only 15,617 electric F-150 Lightning pickups in 2022, but that beats the Cybertruck’s sales by, let’s see, 15,617."

Funny article.
I bet Jim Farley would disagree.
 
Funny article.
I bet Jim Farley would disagree.
Duh. He surely would disagree, publicly.


But who knows what he really thinks. CEOs of large publicly held automotive companies probably don't place "speaking absolute truth to the public at all times" very high on their list of requirements for success.

At least not on their private list.
 
The point is that it's not the 1000 mile range that is important. It's how quickly you can recharge the EV. If you can get it down to a reasonable time of half an hour that would be a major improvement.
Largely true, but it's more a sweet spot of both. I don't want to stop for half an hour of charging every four hours if I'm doing a 10+ hour trip. I wouldn't mind stopping for maybe 10 minutes in that case .... or stopping for 30 mins every 6 hours (mealtime schedule).
 
The point is that it's not the 1000 mile range that is important. It's how quickly you can recharge the EV. If you can get it down to a reasonable time of half an hour that would be a major improvement.
You don't need a half hour. There's a charging curve on EVs. When the battery is nearly empty it charges quickly, and when it’s nearly full, it charges slowly. Every EV is a little different, but as an example, you can charge from 5% SOC to 80% in ~20 min. To go from 80% to 100% would probably take an additional 20 minutes. If you're in a rush, it makes no sense to charge to 100% SOC.
 
Largely true, but it's more a sweet spot of both. I don't want to stop for half an hour of charging every four hours if I'm doing a 10+ hour trip. I wouldn't mind stopping for maybe 10 minutes in that case .... or stopping for 30 mins every 6 hours (mealtime schedule).
Chances are that if you are going on a 10+ hour trip starting with a full charge range of 1000 miles you won't need to stop. That is unless you're pulled over for speeding.
 
Chances are that if you are going on a 10+ hour trip starting with a full charge range of 1000 miles you won't need to stop. That is unless you're pulled over for speeding.
500 real world miles between charge (from 100% to 15-20%) on a road trip would be fine. 500 miles at 75-80mph, heat or AC on to a reasonable temperature, in either 90 degree heat or 25 degree cold.
 
Chances are that if you are going on a 10+ hour trip starting with a full charge range of 1000 miles you won't need to stop. That is unless you're pulled over for speeding.
Without an exponential leap in battery density, 1,000 miles is overkill for anything except maybe an RV or extreme off-roader. It would be useful for an all-electric RV or work vehicle that runs both equipment and powertrain off the battery but unnecessary for a regular passenger vehicle ... and unlikely to come to fruition for any of those use cases anytime soon.

I'm thinking 500 miles (real world miles like @RUevolution36 said) would be plenty - that's over six hours at 80 mph.
 
Without an exponential leap in battery density, 1,000 miles is overkill for anything except maybe an RV or extreme off-roader. It would be useful for an all-electric RV or work vehicle that runs both equipment and powertrain off the battery but unnecessary for a regular passenger vehicle ... and unlikely to come to fruition for any of those use cases anytime soon.

I'm thinking 500 miles (real world miles like @RUevolution36 said) would be plenty - that's over six hours at 80 mph.
While some are holding out for ultra long range EVs, that's not the reality of what's happening. The auto industry is moving towards lower energy density cells. LFP (lithium, iron, phosphate) cells are cheap to manufacture, they can be manufactured at scale, and iron is an abundant cathode source. BYD, + most of the other Chinese EVs use LFP, Tesla uses LFP in >50% of their vehicles, and Ford recently announced an LFP plant in the US. Expect more to follow.


Cells with a high energy density have been around for some time, but they use expensive materials and none are being manufactured at scale, nor have I heard any plans to manufacture such cells at scale from any of the major suppliers. Those holding out for 500+ mi range EVs to be commonplace should be prepared to wait. Bottom line is most consumers don't need that type of range and toting an extremely heavy battery pack is inefficient.
 
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While some are holding out for ultra long range EVs, that's not the reality of what's happening. The auto industry is moving towards lower energy density cells. LFP (lithium, iron, phosphate) cells are cheap to manufacture, they can be manufactured at scale, and iron is an abundant cathode source. BYD, + most of the other Chinese EVs use LFP, Tesla uses LFP in >50% of their vehicles, and Ford recently announced an LFP plant in the US. Expect more to follow.


Cells with a high energy density have been around for some time, but they use expensive materials and none are being manufactured at scale, nor have I heard any plans to manufacture such cells at scale from any of the major suppliers. Those holding out for 500+ mi range EVs to be commonplace should be prepared to wait. Bottom line is most consumers don't need that type of range and toting an extremely heavy battery pack is inefficient.
Agree. 1000 miles is ridiculous for a passenger vehicle and light duty (consumer) pickup truck.

What's in the works for tractor trailer and commercial vehicles that drive long distances? Anything for longer hauls?
 
That guy seemed to have an axe to grind with Musk, which is not surprising coming from the NYT with their typical agenda-based BS. But I digress, and I will take the micro-victory for Ford anyway, even if it is stupid. 🤣

Why would Farley disagree?
Read the link I posted about it. He explains for himself, sort of.
 
Agree. 1000 miles is ridiculous for a passenger vehicle and light duty (consumer) pickup truck.

What's in the works for tractor trailer and commercial vehicles that drive long distances? Anything for longer hauls?
High nickel cathodes for long range EVs.

On the anode side, replacing graphite with silicon seems to be the most talked about solution for longer range. Silicon anodes would boost range by up to 40%, but they degrade much more quickly vs graphite leading to fewer charging cycles. No one has been able to solve this conundrum with a cost effective solution so far let alone producing at scale.
 
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