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OT: Electric vehicles

mildone said:
This is true. A Mercedes GL450 is a good example of a "standard" luxury SUV (i.e. very luxurious but not a Rolls Royce or whatever). A Tesla Model Y is a perfectly fine car that, according to all objective reports, is not as luxurious feeling as a Kia Telluride's top trim (which is often compared to the Merc).

Read through the ownership experiences by folks in luxury automotive forums who own both high end luxury cars and Teslas and they'll quickly point out that their Teslas are not "luxury" cars.

That's not really a knock on Tesla so much as on automotive journalist's odd and misleading adoption of marketing hyperbole at times (they do it a lot with other manufacturers too, e.g. giving rave reviews of 991.2 Carrera manual shifters when in reality that particular shifter/cable design kind of sucks and tons of 911 owners wind up replacing them with aftermarket shifters and cables to get that "Porsche feel" back).

Wish the journalists would do less cheerleading and more factual reporting. It's a first world problem, though, so as complaints go, it's a minor one.
Click to expand...
Journalists? What's a journalist in today's world?
That aside, consistent with your reading of ownership experiences, a friend has a Porsche, a BMW and a Tesla Y (I think). He said that the build quality of the Tesla (alignment of panels-e.g., hood, fenders, etc) is really poor and he has had several quality issues with his Tesla. He is not sour on the brand, and he is still fairly happy with the Tesla, but his comments and experience surprised me.

Tesla is ranked very poorly for reliability. 27 out of 28.

insideevs.com

Consumer Reports Still Ranks Tesla Reliability 27th Out Of 28

Even though Tesla dominates CR's owner satisfaction surveys, it fares very poorly when it comes to reliability and dependability.
insideevs.com insideevs.com
 
Do you guys think Tesla will be build a more affordable car at some point? In the $20-25,000 range?
 
Knight Shift said:
Journalists? What's a journalist in today's world?
That aside, consistent with your reading of ownership experiences, a friend has a Porsche, a BMW and a Tesla Y (I think). He said that the build quality of the Tesla (alignment of panels-e.g., hood, fenders, etc) is really poor and he has had several quality issues with his Tesla. He is not sour on the brand, and he is still fairly happy with the Tesla, but his comments and experience surprised me.

Tesla is ranked very poorly for reliability. 27 out of 28.

insideevs.com

Consumer Reports Still Ranks Tesla Reliability 27th Out Of 28

Even though Tesla dominates CR's owner satisfaction surveys, it fares very poorly when it comes to reliability and dependability.
insideevs.com insideevs.com
Click to expand...
Perhaps Teslas will be like Jeeps, reliability-wise. Infamously unreliable but still somehow generating intense brand loyalty.

My youngest has two Jeeps, which he purchased used. Both have required constant work. But he really likes them a lot and never complains about all the time/money he's putting into them. He had to buy a third vehicle (a Nissan Armada) because the Jeeps are so unreliable. This does not strike me as an efficient use of money (not to mention how it clutters up my driveway). But he's otherwise good w/his money. So I keep the taunting about it to a minimum. 🙂
 
HeavenUniv. said:
Do you guys think Tesla will be build a more affordable car at some point? In the $20-25,000 range?
Click to expand...
If they cannot meet demand at current price points, why would they? So no time soon. My guess would be 2024 at the earliest. By that time, Fremont, Shanghai, Berlin and Austin will all be close to production capacity.

Another thought to consider is the Tesla 4680 cell. These cells will reduce the cost of a battery pack by over 60%, while increasing energy density. The big question right now is how does Tesla plan on using these cells? Do they reserve them for higher trim models and boost range and performance? Or, do they put out a more affordable EV with something like a 40 kWh pack that gets ~280 miles? We should get the answer in a few weeks. Austin built Model Y with 4680s will begin deliveries April 7th. Tesla is holding the vehicle specs of the 4680 Model Y very close to their chest.
 
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HeavenUniv. said:
Do you guys think Tesla will be build a more affordable car at some point? In the $20-25,000 range?
Click to expand...
I think nobody can predict what will happen (not even Tesla) very accurately at this point.

The industry is already being shaken up by the disruption inherent to being such a new technology. ICEs have existed in a mature and largely settled industry for a long time now. But EVs are really still in their infancy and, since nothing is settled yet, the future is pretty unpredictable.

Nobody really knows how or when supply-chain issues will resolve, or what new supply chains issues might arise, or what sort of unrelated economic pressures will affect market-growth, or how competitive pressures will impact manufacturers. Just a ton of unknowns.
 
BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap said:
If they cannot meet demand at current price points, why would they?
Click to expand...
That's exactly right. For now. And that's why it's become so expensive to buy a car (new or used) these days. It's a seller's market.

But that won't always be the case. The future is, as always, far less certain.
 
BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap said:
If they cannot meet demand at current price points, why would they?
Click to expand...
To become an all around/various income level car company. And yes, I know right now about all car companies not being able to meet demand very well with my Maverick being ordered in October and not expecting it until June at the earliest. I am talking about Tesla offering one after the chip and part shortages, train delays, truck driver shortages, etc. end.
 
mildone said:
Consider using more emojis. A picture being worth a thousand words and no risk of sloppy wording. 😉

I'm gonna get a smile out of you yet, grumpy. You'll see. 😀
Click to expand...
Given the richness of the English language it would be a shame to devolve back to pictograms, don't you think? 😀
 
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Knight Shift said:
Journalists? What's a journalist in today's world?
That aside, consistent with your reading of ownership experiences, a friend has a Porsche, a BMW and a Tesla Y (I think). He said that the build quality of the Tesla (alignment of panels-e.g., hood, fenders, etc) is really poor and he has had several quality issues with his Tesla. He is not sour on the brand, and he is still fairly happy with the Tesla, but his comments and experience surprised me.

Tesla is ranked very poorly for reliability. 27 out of 28.

insideevs.com

Consumer Reports Still Ranks Tesla Reliability 27th Out Of 28

Even though Tesla dominates CR's owner satisfaction surveys, it fares very poorly when it comes to reliability and dependability.
insideevs.com insideevs.com
Click to expand...

True, but Tesla also gets really high ranks for customer satisfaction.

insideevs.com

Tesla Is Number One In Consumer Reports' 2020 Owner Satisfaction Survey

This is now Tesla’s fourth consecutive year as CR’s owner satisfaction king.
insideevs.com insideevs.com
 
HeavenUniv. said:
To become an all around/various income level car company. And yes, I know right now about all car companies not being able to meet demand very well with my Maverick being ordered in October and not expecting it until June at the earliest. I am talking about Tesla offering one after the chip and part shortages, train delays, truck driver shortages, etc. end.
Click to expand...
This is a change in topic, but here goes. Tesla's mission statement is to "accelerate the transition to sustainable energy". Accelerate being the key word.

This is not going to be achieved by increasing EV ownership, especially when it's cost prohibitive to so many consumers. It's accomplished by increasing the total number of miles driven by EVs. What do I mean? Autonomy and robotaxis. Tesla is going all in on autonomy, AI, and robotics. Once solved, the value of an autonomous vehicle goes through the roof. Vehicle ownership will decrease and the cost of transportation will plummet. This is how Tesla meets the needs of all income levels while holding steadfast to their mission.

So, IMO, a $20-25k Tesla is off the table. Of course, I could be wrong, but that's what I see reading through the tea leaves.
 
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BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap said:
This is a change in topic, but here goes. Tesla's mission statement is to "accelerate the transition to sustainable energy". Accelerate being the key word.

This is not going to be achieved by increasing EV ownership, especially when it's cost prohibitive to so many consumers. It's accomplished by increasing the number of miles driven by EVs. What do I mean? Autonomy and robotaxis. Tesla is going all in on autonomy, AI, and robotics. Once solved, the value of an autonomous vehicle goes through the roof. Vehicle ownership will decrease and the cost of transportation will plummet. This is how Tesla meets the needs of all income levels while holding steadfast to their mission.

So, IMO, a $20-25k Tesla is off the table. Of course, I could be wrong, but that's what I see reading through the tea leaves.
Click to expand...
I can guarantee you I will never, ever, let R2-D2 drive me anywhere. Driving , outside of cities, is fun.
 
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BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap said:
Part of that is many consumers making "the Tesla leap", i.e. purchasing a vehicle outside of their normal price range. I'm certainly guilty of that.
Click to expand...
That's where I am at with a pickup truck. Was interested in the Cybertruck, and have not written it off, but my family was too opposed to the design, and if it comes with a yoke, it's out for me. However, it was/is the least expensive of the current pickup truck "offerings" if there is such a thing. We shall see. I think Rivian is the only company actually producing and selling a pickup truck right now. Was not comfortable going with a startup with no track record, but the reviews I have read have been positive for Rivian. Their pricing (around $70K) is not too bad an in line with higher end gasoline-powered pickup trucks.

We shall also see if/when my F150 Lightning will be scheduled for production. A couple of weeks ago, received an e-mail saying mine would be some time in 2023. Also have a reservation of an electric Silverado. The pricing for the F150 Lightning is probably about 10-15% more than the ICE price range, but I am willing to pay extra for an everyday commuter/around town vehicle for the advantages an EV offers and for some of the cool features of both the F150 and the Silverado EVs.
 
Knight Shift said:
That's where I am at with a pickup truck. Was interested in the Cybertruck, and have not written it off, but my family was too opposed to the design, and if it comes with a yoke, it's out for me. However, it was/is the least expensive of the current pickup truck "offerings" if there is such a thing. We shall see. I think Rivian is the only company actually producing and selling a pickup truck right now. Was not comfortable going with a startup with no track record, but the reviews I have read have been positive for Rivian. Their pricing (around $70K) is not too bad an in line with higher end gasoline-powered pickup trucks.

We shall also see if/when my F150 Lightning will be scheduled for production. A couple of weeks ago, received an e-mail saying mine would be some time in 2023. Also have a reservation of an electric Silverado. The pricing for the F150 Lightning is probably about 10-15% more than the ICE price range, but I am willing to pay extra for an everyday commuter/around town vehicle for the advantages an EV offers and for some of the cool features of both the F150 and the Silverado EVs.
Click to expand...
Knight Shift, Lightning production starts in a few weeks. Ford is going to sell a gazillion of these with a price of $40,000. Someone mentioned almost $10,000 in State and federal rebates which brings the price down to almost $30,000. Too much for me, but some can afford that without much angst.
 
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HeavenUniv. said:
Knight Shift, Lightning production starts in a few weeks. Ford is going to sell a gazillion of these with a price of $40,000. Someone mentioned almost $10,000 in State and federal rebates which brings the price down to almost $30,000. Too much for me, but some can afford that without much angst.
Click to expand...
Before you start proclaiming Ford's sales numbers, remember, profitable, mass production of a new technology is excruciatingly difficult. Not sure where Ford is getting the batteries and chips for a "gazillion" EVs either.
 
Knight Shift said:
That's where I am at with a pickup truck. Was interested in the Cybertruck, and have not written it off, but my family was too opposed to the design, and if it comes with a yoke, it's out for me. However, it was/is the least expensive of the current pickup truck "offerings" if there is such a thing. We shall see. I think Rivian is the only company actually producing and selling a pickup truck right now. Was not comfortable going with a startup with no track record, but the reviews I have read have been positive for Rivian. Their pricing (around $70K) is not too bad an in line with higher end gasoline-powered pickup trucks.

We shall also see if/when my F150 Lightning will be scheduled for production. A couple of weeks ago, received an e-mail saying mine would be some time in 2023. Also have a reservation of an electric Silverado. The pricing for the F150 Lightning is probably about 10-15% more than the ICE price range, but I am willing to pay extra for an everyday commuter/around town vehicle for the advantages an EV offers and for some of the cool features of both the F150 and the Silverado EVs.
Click to expand...
FWIW, I would take the original Cybertruck pricing and throw it out the window. No more single motor or tri motor either. Dual and quad motor only as it stands now. Expect more changes.

One thing you can count on is Cybertruck will be the most efficient of the EV pickups (lightest weight, lowest Wh/mile). Part of that is Tesla's engineering superiority + Cybertruck will use the 4680 cells.

Also, Rivian recently raised prices significantly. They are going to honor the original prices for existing order holders, but new orders are seeing a big increase.
 
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HeavenUniv. said:
I can guarantee you I will never, ever, let R2-D2 drive me anywhere. Driving , outside of cities, is fun.
Click to expand...
Once I started driving, at 14, I was hooked. Even if V2I is accomplished in my lifetime, making it safe enough to trust the car to drive itself, I still would would want to drive. Just one of life’s joys.
 
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jtung230 said:
www.marketwatch.com

Polestar’s O2 concept: A gorgeous drop-top EV built for the love of driving

Can an electric car be something beautiful, exhilarating to drive, and a little impractical? Polestar is banking on it.
www.marketwatch.com www.marketwatch.com

wow
Click to expand...
The drone aspect reminds me of the Audi concept car. Assuming that never made it into production.
www.businessinsider.com

Audi created an autonomous off-roader that uses flying drones to illuminate the road instead of headlights

Audi recently revealed the concept AI:TRAIL Quattro, an autonomous off-roader that uses flying LED drones instead of headlights.
www.businessinsider.com www.businessinsider.com
 
HeavenUniv. said:
Knight Shift, Lightning production starts in a few weeks. Ford is going to sell a gazillion of these with a price of $40,000. Someone mentioned almost $10,000 in State and federal rebates which brings the price down to almost $30,000. Too much for me, but some can afford that without much angst.
Click to expand...
I wonder how many of the base model they’ll produce. Have to think they’ll push the expensive trims for higher margins.
 
Rutgers Chris said:
The drone aspect reminds me of the Audi concept car. Assuming that never made it into production.
www.businessinsider.com

Audi created an autonomous off-roader that uses flying drones to illuminate the road instead of headlights

Audi recently revealed the concept AI:TRAIL Quattro, an autonomous off-roader that uses flying LED drones instead of headlights.
www.businessinsider.com www.businessinsider.com
Click to expand...
A drone equipped with a downward-looking camera to scan the road ahead, when added to radar and laser detectors, laser shifters, Waze, and GPS speed cam locations, would nicely round out the lead-footed driver’s arsenal against speeding tickets. OTOH, I suspect it won’t be long before highway patrol officers have drones to assist with speeding driver detection.
 
jtung230 said:
I wonder how many of the base model they’ll produce. Have to think they’ll push the expensive trims for higher margins.
Click to expand...
Saw a video somewhere that Ford wants the $39,900 version as the go to truck for working guys. But I am sure they will be happy to sell ones at double the price for the heated seats, cruise control, heated steering wheel guys too.
 
Production of the Lyriq starts Monday. Will be at dealerships in May.

www.yahoo.com

Cadillac Lyriq EV draws robust response ahead of spring launch

GM's premium brand already has received 233,000 expressions of interest from consumers, Rory Harvey, Cadillac's global vice president, said. "We can't tell yet how many of those will translate into orders," Harvey told a media briefing. GM told suppliers earlier this year to gear up for...
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com
 
jtung230 said:
They have to if they want to maintain the growth rate they projected.
Click to expand...
No, they don't.
With industry leading margins, they have plenty of wiggle room to adjust pricing if needed. Throw in an anticipated battery shortage in 2023 and it makes no sense to introduce new models beyond Cybertruck and Semi.
 
when the avg price of a new car being sold in the US at >$45k, under $25k is not necessary at all. having one starting around $30-35k is probably appropriate, which the Model 3 was supposed to be, but quickly ran away from that.
 
Tesla 3 and Nissan Leaf make a good list. Cost of ownership. Anyone have any experience with a Leaf? We have 4 electric chargers at our office building and saw one plugged in this morning.


"At any rate, KBB factors in a vehicle's purchase price, insurance, maintenance costs, fuel costs, and depreciation when determining the winners of its 5-Year Cost to Own Awards. According to the publication, the 2022 Tesla Model 3 topped the Electric Luxury Vehicle segment with a total 5-year cost to own of $48,233. KBB says this is $16,411 less than the segment average.


Meanwhile, the 2022 Nissan Leaf was the top non-luxury Electric Vehicle, with a $34,134 5-Year Cost to Own. This figure comes in at $13,258 less than the average in the segment."

Interesting comments on the Leaf under the story:

"My 2014 Leaf has been super reliable and trouble free now with nearly 60,000 home charged miles, battery at full bars, only been recalled twice once for Firmware update and second for precautionary battery ground strap replacement, drives like the day I bought it stiil gets 4.3 mile kwh winter 4.7 when temp is above 42 degrees!
Would I buy a new Leaf....no, I like the funkiness of this one plus its easy to upgrade the battery if needed."

"I've been wishing my wife would want a Leaf for commuting to work...it's range would be fine and I can find them for about $5K for first gen with under 30K miles on them. When it becomes time to update the battery pack, about $5K installed for another 10 years service... seems like a deal. I'd love a Tesla, just can't afford them at all at the moment."

insideevs.com

Tesla Model 3 / Nissan Leaf Only EVs On KBB's 5-Year Cost To Own Awards

It seems EVs need to either be very well-priced like the Leaf or incredibly efficient like the Model 3 to truly offer notable savings over gas-powered rivals.
insideevs.com insideevs.com
 
Knight Shift said:
Tesla 3 and Nissan Leaf make a good list. Cost of ownership. Anyone have any experience with a Leaf? We have 4 electric chargers at our office building and saw one plugged in this morning.


"At any rate, KBB factors in a vehicle's purchase price, insurance, maintenance costs, fuel costs, and depreciation when determining the winners of its 5-Year Cost to Own Awards. According to the publication, the 2022 Tesla Model 3 topped the Electric Luxury Vehicle segment with a total 5-year cost to own of $48,233. KBB says this is $16,411 less than the segment average.


Meanwhile, the 2022 Nissan Leaf was the top non-luxury Electric Vehicle, with a $34,134 5-Year Cost to Own. This figure comes in at $13,258 less than the average in the segment."

Interesting comments on the Leaf under the story:

"My 2014 Leaf has been super reliable and trouble free now with nearly 60,000 home charged miles, battery at full bars, only been recalled twice once for Firmware update and second for precautionary battery ground strap replacement, drives like the day I bought it stiil gets 4.3 mile kwh winter 4.7 when temp is above 42 degrees!
Would I buy a new Leaf....no, I like the funkiness of this one plus its easy to upgrade the battery if needed."

"I've been wishing my wife would want a Leaf for commuting to work...it's range would be fine and I can find them for about $5K for first gen with under 30K miles on them. When it becomes time to update the battery pack, about $5K installed for another 10 years service... seems like a deal. I'd love a Tesla, just can't afford them at all at the moment."

insideevs.com

Tesla Model 3 / Nissan Leaf Only EVs On KBB's 5-Year Cost To Own Awards

It seems EVs need to either be very well-priced like the Leaf or incredibly efficient like the Model 3 to truly offer notable savings over gas-powered rivals.
insideevs.com insideevs.com
Click to expand...
A+ for a short commuter car. Battery pack is either 40 or 62 kWh depending on year & trim, so it's not ideal for long trip and I don't think Leafs accept DC fast charging, but I could be wrong about that.

I've seen used leafs discussed a lot recently as an affordable EV option. So the market may dry up quick or you may see prices increase.
 
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BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap said:
No, they don't.
With industry leading margins, they have plenty of wiggle room to adjust pricing if needed. Throw in an anticipated battery shortage in 2023 and it makes no sense to introduce new models beyond Cybertruck and Semi.
Click to expand...
Who are the competitors? Which car company that only sells 1mm car per year?
 
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