OT-ish: Sig Ep kicked out
- Thread starter RU4Real
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... and the more that administrators treat undergrads like children, the more childishly they'll behave.
Hey, I shared a house with three of your brothers in 89/90, and -- not coincidentally -- it was the year I had to drop out of school. Lumpy, Paul W., Bill D., and I lived -- along with six other guys -- at 54 Easton Avenue, right above the Sport Port (which eventually became Cafe Newz).
Raise a mug for James Callahan.
Rufinal4 - the frats have insurance too. Always had. There was an Atlantic article a few years back that mentioned the insurance companies finally got wise and made the frats execute agreements with brothers with "you will not drink on premises and any losses arising from ...." verbiage.
The result? Well not pretty for mom and dad's bank account. Apparently homeowner policies had a target on them.
The result? Well not pretty for mom and dad's bank account. Apparently homeowner policies had a target on them.
Not sure which reason you're referring to. I think the biggest reason is that the whole idea of greek life has outlived its usefulness. I lived in a house with 6 other guys. We had a great time and never paid dues. Off-campus housing has killed frat life, IMO.
I tend to take an agnostic view of fraternities. I was not in one, but I have lots of friends who were at RU and other places. I see the lure, I saw it at 17 and 18, but at this point I know that it was for the best not joining- I had a blast otherwise and enough time to keep academics in order.
Perhaps it was different very long ago, but when I was at RU, I don't think it was even 10% in fraternities.
There a couple of reasons. I think a lot of private and Southern schools where there are more frats have more hereditary members or legacies. A lot, if not most people, at RU, are either first in their family to attend college, or first to do so in the US.
A second big one is dorms at RU are co-ed. No need to need to join a frat to mix, because girls are next door 24`7.
And lastly, RU is so diverse that is probably some other sub culture somewhere on campus easier and cheaper to join.
That said, RU shouldn't kill the frats. What they can't do, nor the national frats, is let people get hurt or die because those lawsuits will kill frats themselves.
I tend to agree with Der though, abolishing them will just make more kids drink in random houses in the 5th and 6th wards.
Perhaps it was different very long ago, but when I was at RU, I don't think it was even 10% in fraternities.
There a couple of reasons. I think a lot of private and Southern schools where there are more frats have more hereditary members or legacies. A lot, if not most people, at RU, are either first in their family to attend college, or first to do so in the US.
A second big one is dorms at RU are co-ed. No need to need to join a frat to mix, because girls are next door 24`7.
And lastly, RU is so diverse that is probably some other sub culture somewhere on campus easier and cheaper to join.
That said, RU shouldn't kill the frats. What they can't do, nor the national frats, is let people get hurt or die because those lawsuits will kill frats themselves.
I tend to agree with Der though, abolishing them will just make more kids drink in random houses in the 5th and 6th wards.
Geez..what a shame. My old stomping grounds and fraternity in the late '70s. I have some great memories of that place, lived in the old two house arrangment on the hill overlooking George St. Some really great relationships were made and a lot of fun. It's a different era today, drinking was widespread and abused back then (I certainly did my share). I don't advocate heavy drinking ..a lesson learned over the course of time. But..these kind of episodes of severe intoxication were pretty frequent back then and certainly not in only 1 fraternity. I'm glad i grew up when i did, everything today is really very mircroscopic and public. I'm glad there were no cameras following me around when i was 20.
RU frats were Animal House prior to Animal House. Don't think the movie was the problem as that was the prevalent mindset of the day.
Here's the deal.
Rutgers has a vested interest in destroying fraternities. For decades, the most college-life-oriented and school-spirited folk were frat guys. That meant when Rutgers got in line for donations, they had to have good relations with these alums frats. Meanwhile, frat life came under attack for a myriad of reasons.. too white, too male, too "old boy".
Couple that with rise of lawsuits for any number of reasons naming every entity with resources.. like Rutgers.. and the drinking age moving from 18 to 21.. you can see why and when Rutgers began the attack on frats. Rutgers closed its own campus pubs for the same reason and stopped kegs at tailgates and so on. So they then start shutting down all the things that frats do to recruit members. Stop recruitment of freshmen, close the bars inside frats, etc. Sig Ep and other national fraternity offices had to protect themselves legally as well. They cannot fight to keep rogue houses open in this hyper-legal society.
Now add in a rise in drug use, alcohol abuse, aging buildings with demands for ever changing fire control systems and the like and you got a situation where frats have fewer members of poorer quality than the past who mostly treat the house like crash pads. Frats always had winners and losers among their members.. but the winner once outnumbered the losers. I think that reflects on society as a whole as well. Basically.. the houses entered a downward spiral that made it ever easier for Rutgers and the national organizations to just take the legally-safe path and shut them down. And Rutgers has the benefit of not competing with frats for alums loyalty and donations.
Who can come to the defense of these to old-boy, too male and too white dinosaurs? Its a damn shame, imho, but that is where we are.
PS. I have heard of the Zeta Psi situation. They had a problem with the members and decided to shut the house down until they all graduated and they could re-boot the frat with members who gave a damn. good luck to them in finding such people on campus today. imho, they should approach some honor society.
This post was edited on 3/26 8:24 AM by GoodOl'Rutgers
Rutgers has a vested interest in destroying fraternities. For decades, the most college-life-oriented and school-spirited folk were frat guys. That meant when Rutgers got in line for donations, they had to have good relations with these alums frats. Meanwhile, frat life came under attack for a myriad of reasons.. too white, too male, too "old boy".
Couple that with rise of lawsuits for any number of reasons naming every entity with resources.. like Rutgers.. and the drinking age moving from 18 to 21.. you can see why and when Rutgers began the attack on frats. Rutgers closed its own campus pubs for the same reason and stopped kegs at tailgates and so on. So they then start shutting down all the things that frats do to recruit members. Stop recruitment of freshmen, close the bars inside frats, etc. Sig Ep and other national fraternity offices had to protect themselves legally as well. They cannot fight to keep rogue houses open in this hyper-legal society.
Now add in a rise in drug use, alcohol abuse, aging buildings with demands for ever changing fire control systems and the like and you got a situation where frats have fewer members of poorer quality than the past who mostly treat the house like crash pads. Frats always had winners and losers among their members.. but the winner once outnumbered the losers. I think that reflects on society as a whole as well. Basically.. the houses entered a downward spiral that made it ever easier for Rutgers and the national organizations to just take the legally-safe path and shut them down. And Rutgers has the benefit of not competing with frats for alums loyalty and donations.
Who can come to the defense of these to old-boy, too male and too white dinosaurs? Its a damn shame, imho, but that is where we are.
PS. I have heard of the Zeta Psi situation. They had a problem with the members and decided to shut the house down until they all graduated and they could re-boot the frat with members who gave a damn. good luck to them in finding such people on campus today. imho, they should approach some honor society.
This post was edited on 3/26 8:24 AM by GoodOl'Rutgers
I have to believe that if the drinking age returned to 18 you would see a revitalization of the Greek system on the frat side. Amazing that the sorority side has thrived and exploded in popularity in contrast to fraternities.
I didn't get the feeling that it was a good question to ask. Suffice to say the local and national alumni organizations thought the situation required a drastic change. There has always been a rebel sentiment in that house.. not caring if Rutgers "recognized" them for example. In some ways that is "healthy".. as in, Rutgers makes the rules such that recruiting is impossible? Well, go de-recognized and play by your own rules and survive. It just seems that sentiment went too far... so I was told.
Some years back I checked in there with some friends on a homecoming.. the house was in dismal shape. That is the one cardinal sin.. not taking care of the house when you have a gem.. an aging gem.. like that house. The alums I spoke with remembered the sweat equity they had in the house and were visibly upset.
That place always had great parties back in the 80s. And it seemed like they took great pride in the house and their rep as hosts. In fact, most Rutgers frats were like that and had relatively open parties.
And the stuff frats get criticized for today happens everywhere.. off-campus apartments and houses, dorms.. hell.. even in high school. It just seems that they get more criticism because of the old-boy white "elite" rep... which is simply not a true image of the kind of people in frats.. at state colleges, at least.
If something bad happens at a frat.. the culture is blamed. If the same kids did the same thing someplace else, it would not be subject to the same scrutiny. If guys in a River Dorm were accused of date rape... would Rutgers dorms be accused of fostering some kind of anti-women environment? If some Corwin house party resulted in a DUI and trip to the hospital.. would the housemates be kicked out and have the house closed?
When the UVA thing and Sig Ep thing came up.. I saw Mike Barancle on Morning Joe mockingly ask.. "Who joins frats?.. Its not the 1960s..". I think he speaks for a whole lot of people who, strangely, are being elitists in being anti-fraternity. I do not know why a columnist and pundit like Barnacle cannot be open-minded when it comes to people choosing to belong to a fraternity. It is something in their DNA I think. I think they see every choice they made as being the correct choice and want to reinforce that by criticizing alternative choices people might make. Like how some atheists actively mock religious people rather than just allowing others to believe what they choose to believe.
I see I have droned on too long here. I just find it all fascinating.
Good Ol I think is partially referring to the Zeta House at RU where Sig Ep was renting from them.
As a whole Greek life at Rutgers has gone in and out of favor, but to be honest the last 20 years have been very dismal. Other schools in the Big Ten are really fostering Greek life, go take a look at the Greek village at UM or heck go look at the brand new village just built at NJIT.
This really comes down to the administration and bringing in younger and more proactive greek advisors to clean up the system the right way. You can easily find some of these professionals at mid-west schools who are doing a great job helping students and bridging relationships with alumni.
Great post GOR. I believe that you nailed it.
Also a good point by NIRH that coed dorms have hurt fraternity life. When I was at RU there were binders of women lining up to attend fraternity parties on campus while guys in the all male dorms rarely had unattached women showing up at their dorms.
Also a good point by NIRH that coed dorms have hurt fraternity life. When I was at RU there were binders of women lining up to attend fraternity parties on campus while guys in the all male dorms rarely had unattached women showing up at their dorms.
Spoke to my son at University of Illinois at Champaign/Urbana and he stated it maybe one of the largest systems in country with 23% of under graduate students part of the Greek system. My niece at Purdue could not gat a room at the sorority house on campus her sophomore year. It was evident in the later 70's RU was not pro Greek.
If I recall correctly the University wanted to create a "Fraternity Row" on Busch and offered it to the existing frats back in the late 70's. Most of us (if not all fraternities) rejected the idea for a lot of reasons - 1. social life as it is now is still on College Ave. 2. we owned our own house and didn't want the University as a landlord.
Owning your own house is a good reason. Problem is these days any greek life owned house is prime real estate for RU or for investors looking to build apartments.
As it stands now a Greek housing complex would be a huge boost to the system. The existing housing stock is terrible and purchasing property on College Ave is cost prohibitive for the vast majority of groups.
Ideally a Greek Village could be built behind the gym/student center. Not sure how many units could go back there maybe 15-20 decent sized units. If you incorporate it into the master plan and also use the space available after the student center is removed you could add more. Otherwise you could take a chunk of land on Livingston campus and put it to use.
Ideally a Greek Village could be built behind the gym/student center. Not sure how many units could go back there maybe 15-20 decent sized units. If you incorporate it into the master plan and also use the space available after the student center is removed you could add more. Otherwise you could take a chunk of land on Livingston campus and put it to use.
Whoever mentioned the increasing number of off campus housing where 8-10 people can live together without being greek, I think that plays a large part in the RU greek life declining. I had the option to pledge Alpha Epsilon Pi and chose not to because I already had a greek like atmosphere just by living off campus from a social perspective.
There are other advantages to fraternities than to party. I was part of one while I was at Rutgers about 10 years ago. I was able to participate in many charity events organized by the fraternity itself. Also, after graduation I had a recent graduate brother that helped me find a job right out of college.
Its more the drinking culture, the idea that you need to drink as much as possible to have a good time that causes these kinds of incidents. Any social gatherings that booze is served in college and young men are trying to be.... well young men and wanting to get some liquid courage, there will be incidents. Fraternities or no Fraternities. When these incidents happen at random house parties and kids go to hospitals it doesn't get any media attention. But when a fraternity is involved there's something to write about.
Its more the drinking culture, the idea that you need to drink as much as possible to have a good time that causes these kinds of incidents. Any social gatherings that booze is served in college and young men are trying to be.... well young men and wanting to get some liquid courage, there will be incidents. Fraternities or no Fraternities. When these incidents happen at random house parties and kids go to hospitals it doesn't get any media attention. But when a fraternity is involved there's something to write about.
I went to RU in the fall of 82. My freshman year we had a big Alabama Slammer Party. Everybody kicked in money and we had beer and whatever is in an AS. I think the drinking age was 19 at the time or maybe had moved to 21 but it didn't matter, we all partied up including grad students who were live in monitors. If I remember correctly there was a big snowstorm and some kids were jumping off the rroof of Davidson A into the snow piles. I went to parties in the River Dorms and the kegs were lined up in the common areas. All you had to do was tape your license to your chest and you could get beer. Didn't matter if you were 17 as long as you had a license. I joined Sig Ep my sophomore year and there were many great parties but I'll provide no details, but I also had fun with fraternity sports and other activities. By srping of 86 the Universtiy was forcing fraternities to check ID's and lower the taps at the bar so they could not be seen and dorm parties died. I felt like when I came in I saw how it had been and when I was left I saw how it would be, major change in those 4 years.
The Sig Ep flag always flies in the Scarlet lot by some brothers that have had season tickets since we graduated. Its nice to stop by and see old friends. I do feel greek life is threatened as the allure is parties but that is where all the liability is for brothers, officers and alumni that help out. Not sure where it goes but my son will go off to college this fall and he talks to college freshman and greek life seems to be popular.
The Sig Ep flag always flies in the Scarlet lot by some brothers that have had season tickets since we graduated. Its nice to stop by and see old friends. I do feel greek life is threatened as the allure is parties but that is where all the liability is for brothers, officers and alumni that help out. Not sure where it goes but my son will go off to college this fall and he talks to college freshman and greek life seems to be popular.
This is a perfect example of why RU Greeks are having so much trouble. It's not because people can have a Greek experience in off campus housing but rather because that perception exists. People equate fraternity with partying. That is such a small slice of the true experience but yet that is what too many members and chapters focus on and sell. If that is what I was looking for I would never have joined either.
Many of the problems with the Greek system at Rutgers can be traced back to Rutgers itself. Years ago every fraternity had some type of supervision and accountability. Each fraternity had a resident "house mother". As archaic as it may seem there was some accountability much like having a preceptor in a dorm. As Rutgers went coed the house mothers phased out and there was no formal oversight. I could never understand why the office of student affairs did not require all fraternities/sororities to have an in house grad student much like a resident advisor is in the dorms. Add in requirements for an alumni board of trustees and you have a reasonable system in place. No oversight = greater chances for problems. The equation is that simple. Add in another factor of females for the most part being the administrators of a Greek system at a school that for over 200 years had been all male and you have basic communication problems. I have no knowledge of this but I wonder how many of the current university personnel involved in Greek life affairs was ever a member of a fraternity or sorority. Also being involved as an alumni trustee for my Rutgers fraternity I so no or hardly any mention of an Alumni Interfraternity Council which in past years was another oversight connection between the alumni fraternity trustees and the university and was a positive communication link.
Add in the fact that the dorms now became wide open coed situations and one has to ask why isn't this the same for the frats/sororities. No question that times do change but things need to be equal across the board and supervised accordingly. In addition there were always curfews on parties which had to be shut down at a certain hour. Needless to say the rules have been changed and often eliminated and Rutgers wonders why some problems exist. Perhaps a look in the mirror might help!
Add in the fact that the dorms now became wide open coed situations and one has to ask why isn't this the same for the frats/sororities. No question that times do change but things need to be equal across the board and supervised accordingly. In addition there were always curfews on parties which had to be shut down at a certain hour. Needless to say the rules have been changed and often eliminated and Rutgers wonders why some problems exist. Perhaps a look in the mirror might help!
