OT: Today in History. Germany invades the Soviet Union

[RUboston]

What a momentous attack, from the Baltic to the Black Sea.

From Barbarossa (the code name for the German invasion) by Alan Clark:

"On June 22, 1941, before dawn, German tanks and guns began firing across the Russian border. It was the beginning of Hitler's Operation Barbarossa, one of the most brutal campaigns in the history of warfare. Four years later, the victorious Red Army had suffered a loss of seven million lives. A Russian fighting force that in one two-month period lost two million men was nevertheless able to rally to defeat the Wehrmacht. The Barbarossa campaign included some of the greatest episodes in military history: the futile attack on Moscow in the winter of 1941-42, the siege of Stalingrad, the great Russian offensive beginning in 1944 that would lead the Red Army to the historic meeting with the Americans at the Elbe and on to victory in Berlin."

"What an appalling moment in time this is! The head on crash of the two greatest armies, the two most absolute systems, in the world. No battle in history compares with it. Not even that first ponderous heave of August 1914, when all the railway engines in Europe sped the mobilization, or the final exhausted lunge against the Hindenburg Line four years later. In terms of numbers of men, weight of ammunition, length of front, the desperate crescendo of the fighting, there will never be another day like 22nd June, 1941."

 

[RUfromSoCal?]

sure, but it was the 26th when Finland joined in that things got interesting....

 

[BigWill]

IF, he hadn't stopped outside Dunkirk it is most likely that the entire BEF would have had to surrender and become POW's, 300,000 or so.

He could have walked into England.

Luckily he listened go Goering.

 

[dbaguy]

And three days (plus years) later another well known invasion occurred.

 

[RUfromSoCal?]

IF, he hadn't stopped outside Dunkirk it is most likely that the entire BEF would have had to surrender and become POW's, 300,000 or so.
He could have walked into England.
Luckily he listened go Goering.

Of course, the Achilles heel of the blitzkrieg was always the supply lines. The point of the spear was mechanized -but those supply lines were horse drawn. Pushing into Dunkirk was certainly plausible -but not necessarily assured. Pausing to retool was not unwarranted (just, fortunate). The biggest heroes of Dunkirk were the perimeter forces (mostly French - and mostly colonial) who had two options (fight and die or fight and be captured) - but they held just long enough.

no doubt Dynamo made a big difference in the calculus (though the BEF left all their kit behind) - but very unclear if Hitler ever seriously wanted to undertake Operation Sea lion - and even if he had, how successful it really would have been. As Overloard showed - supply lines across the channel were incredibly difficult. The Royal Navy probably could have severely inhibited any amphibious landing attempt. Records seem to indicate that Hitler expected a UK "surrender" or "negotiated Détente" after Dunkirk. In the end it was Churchill's firm refusal to surrender (as opposed to what Chamberlain or Halifax would have done) that led to the last 75 years of Freedom. Too bad that Winston character was a racist (or something...)

 

[mdk01]

And if Hitler didn't have had to send a couple of panzer divisions down to Greece in April to bail out Mussolini's botched invasion it would have started in May and they might have reached Moscow before winter.

 

[RUfromSoCal?]

 

[DJ Spanky]

And if Hitler didn't have had to send a couple of panzer divisions down to Greece in April to bail out Mussolini's botched invasion it would have started in May and they might have reached Moscow before winter.

Yep, the original plan was to invade in Spring - if they had stuck to that they might have succeeded.

 

[ecojew]

Yep, the original plan was to invade in Spring - if they had stuck to that they might have succeeded.

Let's thank the Greeks! They/we are a very stubborn people, as Mussolini learned.

Finland was the only democracy to join the Axis powers and that was purely a defensive maneuver to get German help against the Soviets, who had invaded earlier during the so-called "winter war."

It's nice to see many of us who are WW II buffs. That has shown up in other threads as well. Those of us in our 60s and 70s were mostly raised by the generation who fought that war.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

Largest invasion in history.

 

[RUboston]

Nearly 4.5 million troops involved in the surprise attack.

 

[ecojew]

Nearly 4.5 million troops involved in the surprise attack.

Yeah, it's hard to believe that 4.5 million enemy troops could be lined up along your western border and still have it be a surprise. Stalin was really delusional to think that Hitler would honor the agreement from 1939 to facilitate his invasion of Poland.

In retrospect, though, the Axis invasion of the USSR along with Japan's earlier invasion of China were two of the most significant factors in aiding the Allies' eventual victory. The huge number of German and Japanese tied up during those two ultimately unsuccessful invasions really helped the Western Allies pull off the invasions of Italy and France in Europe along with the island-hopping strategy used by the US in the Asia-Pacific theatre.

By some estimates, the USSR lost 22 - 28 million people during the war. I don't know the figure for China but those two huge countries clearly paid the biggest price of the conflict in terms of civilian deaths.

 

[CERU00]

And if Hitler didn't have had to send a couple of panzer divisions down to Greece in April to bail out Mussolini's botched invasion it would have started in May and they might have reached Moscow before winter.

Taking Moscow meant nothing. The Russians had already moved much to the east. The Germans needed to take the oilfields in the Caucasus that first summer. That was there only chance of winning. Instead, his generals caused him to spread the attack along an insanely wide front and waste precious fuel doing it.

 

[patk89]

Yeah, it's hard to believe that 4.5 million enemy troops could be lined up along your western border and still have it be a surprise. Stalin was really delusional to think that Hitler would honor the agreement from 1939 to facilitate his invasion of Poland.

By some estimates, the USSR lost 22 - 28 million people during the war. I don't know the figure for China but those two huge countries clearly paid the biggest price of the conflict in terms of civilian deaths.

Huge losses but they willingly jumped into bed with Hitler at the onset to gain eastern Poland. Signed a non-aggression pact with the Germans. Stalin was a terrible person. Power hungry tyrant.

 

[MYHATINTHERING]

Taking Moscow meant nothing. The Russians had already moved much to the east. The Germans needed to take the oilfields in the Caucasus that first summer. That was there only chance of winning. Instead, his generals caused him to spread the attack along an insanely wide front and waste precious fuel doing it.

most don't about the Greek divisions but that is the reason Hitler lost Russia. Could any power have asked for a worse ally than Italy?

I don't think it was the generals as Hitler changed the plan a few times medling like he always did

Hitlers real achillies heal was no long range bombers

 

[T2Kplus10]

What a momentous attack, from the Baltic to the Black Sea.

From Barbarossa (the code name for the German invasion) by Alan Clark:

"On June 22, 1941, before dawn, German tanks and guns began firing across the Russian border. It was the beginning of Hitler's Operation Barbarossa, one of the most brutal campaigns in the history of warfare. Four years later, the victorious Red Army had suffered a loss of seven million lives. A Russian fighting force that in one two-month period lost two million men was nevertheless able to rally to defeat the Wehrmacht. The Barbarossa campaign included some of the greatest episodes in military history: the futile attack on Moscow in the winter of 1941-42, the siege of Stalingrad, the great Russian offensive beginning in 1944 that would lead the Red Army to the historic meeting with the Americans at the Elbe and on to victory in Berlin."

"What an appalling moment in time this is! The head on crash of the two greatest armies, the two most absolute systems, in the world. No battle in history compares with it. Not even that first ponderous heave of August 1914, when all the railway engines in Europe sped the mobilization, or the final exhausted lunge against the Hindenburg Line four years later. In terms of numbers of men, weight of ammunition, length of front, the desperate crescendo of the fighting, there will never be another day like 22nd June, 1941."

And thus proving the guiding principle of the board game Risk:

You can't hold onto Europe

:)
@Rhuarc

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

Yeah, it's hard to believe that 4.5 million enemy troops could be lined up along your western border and still have it be a surprise. Stalin was really delusional to think that Hitler would honor the agreement from 1939 to facilitate his invasion of Poland.

In retrospect, though, the Axis invasion of the USSR along with Japan's earlier invasion of China were two of the most significant factors in aiding the Allies' eventual victory. The huge number of German and Japanese tied up during those two ultimately unsuccessful invasions really helped the Western Allies pull off the invasions of Italy and France in Europe along with the island-hopping strategy used by the US in the Asia-Pacific theatre.

By some estimates, the USSR lost 22 - 28 million people during the war. I don't know the figure for China but those two huge countries clearly paid the biggest price of the conflict in terms of civilian deaths.

Folks may seen this, but always worth a re-look:

http://www.fallen.io/ww2/

 

[kapyoche]

Soviet Union was responsible for WWII.
They were not good guys.

 

[ru109]

Yeah, it's hard to believe that 4.5 million enemy troops could be lined up along your western border and still have it be a surprise. Stalin was really delusional to think that Hitler would honor the agreement from 1939 to facilitate his invasion of Poland.

In retrospect, though, the Axis invasion of the USSR along with Japan's earlier invasion of China were two of the most significant factors in aiding the Allies' eventual victory. The huge number of German and Japanese tied up during those two ultimately unsuccessful invasions really helped the Western Allies pull off the invasions of Italy and France in Europe along with the island-hopping strategy used by the US in the Asia-Pacific theatre.

By some estimates, the USSR lost 22 - 28 million people during the war. I don't know the figure for China but those two huge countries clearly paid the biggest price of the conflict in terms of civilian deaths.

The Russians basically bleed the Germans dry.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

Huge losses but they willingly jumped into bed with Hitler at the onset to gain eastern Poland. Signed a non-aggression pact with the Germans. Stalin was a terrible person. Power hungry tyrant.

Stalin was as evil as Hitler.

 

[RUBigFrank]

The moving battle front between the Russians and Nazis was described as a meat grinder. Nothing in-between survived. The death toll was astounding both by military and civilians. The Soviet machine and allied bombing essentially won this war.

Allied bombing denied scale and capacity of the Nazi war production - The Soviet army simply destroyed everything in its path.

 

[MYHATINTHERING]

Stalin was as evil as Hitler.

worse really

 

[mdh2003]

And thus proving the guiding principle of the board game Risk:

You can't hold onto Europe

:)
@Rhuarc

Doesn't everybody know to load up in Australia, methodically take the rest of the Southern Hemisphere (Africa/SouthAm), keeping fortifications to a minimum (I believe 5 total territories), while playing hit/run against the Northern continents until you can overrun them. I think I figured that out when I was 7.

 

[ecojew]

Stalin was as evil as Hitler.

Yes, he was, which is why he should have known better than to ever trust him.

Fortunately for us, he was able to rally the Soviet peoples to defend the motherland at all costs + prevent the Nazis from over-running that vast, resource-rich country. Had Hitler prevailed and transferred his full forces over to the Western front, it would have been far more difficult to establish a foothold in France and ultimate victory would have taken much longer to achieve. And that would have given the Nazis much more time to allow the Holocaust to run its course.

 

[victorio1]

One of our greatest living novelists, Colum McCann, wrote a semi-biography of famed ballet dancer Rudolph Nureyev. The first several pages present the most powerful and vivid depiction of the Russian-German front that I have ever read. (In fact, the most compelling depiction of ANY combat situation I have ever read.)

You can read this amazing descriptive account simply by selecting "books" in Amazon and clicking on "Dancer" by Colum McCann.

 

[Rhuarc]

And thus proving the guiding principle of the board game Risk:

You can't hold onto Europe

:)
@Rhuarc

Yep, trying to lock down Europe with 4-5 borders ain't happening early in the game.

 

[Rhuarc]

Doesn't everybody know to load up in Australia, methodically take the rest of the Southern Hemisphere (Africa/SouthAm), keeping fortifications to a minimum (I believe 5 total territories), while playing hit/run against the Northern continents until you can overrun them. I think I figured that out when I was 7.

There's also the logic of taking South America and holding the African border while slowly pushing into North America to take that eventually. Then you're looking at 7 armies per round with only 3 borders to defend. I've played a lot of Risk and when there's only 2-4 players, that's a legit option depending upon other people's plans. Nothing worse than having a drag out fight over Australia and not being able to hold it once you get it.

 

[dbaguy]

Soviet Union was responsible for WWII.
They were not good guys.

"Soviet Union was responsible for WWII." Yep, it started when they landed in Malaya and captured Singapore. Or perhaps when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? [/S off.] (Or perhaps WWII started in 1932 China.)
"They were not good guys." True, true.

 

[DJ Spanky]

Huge losses but they willingly jumped into bed with Hitler at the onset to gain eastern Poland. Signed a non-aggression pact with the Germans. Stalin was a terrible person. Power hungry tyrant.

Yep, he killed tens of millions of his own people through famine.

 

[Doctor Worm]

Yep, he killed tens of millions of his own people through famine.

Yet he was still the lesser of the two evils.

And we think the world of 2020 sucks...

 

[CERU00]

most don't about the Greek divisions but that is the reason Hitler lost Russia. Could any power have asked for a worse ally than Italy?

I don't think it was the generals as Hitler changed the plan a few times medling like he always did

Hitlers real achillies heal was no long range bombers

Sorry man but you no close to being correct. You sound like you're regurgitating Hitler's generals in their memoirs.

 

[T2Kplus10]

There's also the logic of taking South America and holding the African border while slowly pushing into North America to take that eventually. Then you're looking at 7 armies per round with only 3 borders to defend. I've played a lot of Risk and when there's only 2-4 players, that's a legit option depending upon other people's plans. Nothing worse than having a drag out fight over Australia and not being able to hold it once you get it.

I like SA as well, having 2 access points is optimal. If you get both parts of Aussie with the initial draw then fine, but you need to consolidate and move quickly before getting trapped.

 

[RUfromSoCal?]

Doesn't everybody know to load up in Australia, methodically take the rest of the Southern Hemisphere (Africa/SouthAm), keeping fortifications to a minimum (I believe 5 total territories), while playing hit/run against the Northern continents until you can overrun them. I think I figured that out when I was 7.

Irkutsk

 

[mdh2003]

There's also the logic of taking South America and holding the African border while slowly pushing into North America to take that eventually. Then you're looking at 7 armies per round with only 3 borders to defend. I've played a lot of Risk and when there's only 2-4 players, that's a legit option depending upon other people's plans. Nothing worse than having a drag out fight over Australia and not being able to hold it once you get it.

That is pretty much it. True, if others have the same plan, you decimate each other and someone else can swoop in and take the purple. But, that can be said of any first continent. It's just an early game question of fighting one AUS or two SA fronts (oddly enough, we're back to the point of the thread). I've done both, and even if bloody, AUS is usually worth it. Once established, it is just a means to print troops for the SA/Africa campaigns.

 

[T2Kplus10]

That is pretty much it. True, if others have the same plan, you decimate each other and someone else can swoop in and take the purple. But, that can be said of any first continent. It's just an early game question of fighting one AUS or two SA fronts (oddly enough, we're back to the point of the thread). I've done both, and even if bloody, AUS is usually worth it. Once established, it is just a means to print troops for the SA/Africa campaigns.

Sounds like an online TKR Risk tourney is brewing.
:)

 

[LC-88]

Sounds like an online TKR Risk tourney is brewing.
:)

double board

 

[LC-88]

Hitler lost the war for sure on December 11th, 1941, by declaring war on us. Massive mistake. Germany peaked on December 8th, 1941, with the spires of Moscow in sight.

 

[jreinsdorf]

Hitler was the worst military strategist AND tactician of all time and I'm not sure who would place a distant second but i don't think it would be close.

 

[dbaguy]

Hitler was the worst military strategist AND tactician of all time and I'm not sure who would place a distant second but i don't think it would be close.

Stalin might have been worse. With the exception of the Battle of the Bulge from 1942 and forward the Allies could read the German enigma communications.

 

[HeywoodGiant]

Preemptive strike