OT: UNC Scandal Update... UNC Responds

[Doctor Worm]

So it's okay to have a fake class and give everyone an "A" but not okay to have a coach ask a professor if a student can do some extra credit to improve their grade. Which is worse?

I'm not disagreeing with you... let me offer an admittedly imperfect analogy and see if it helps...

Sam and Joe are CPA's. Sam is caught intentionally falsifying financial statements. Joe is caught killing his wife in a crime of passion having nothing to do with his profession.

Whose crime is worse? We'd all agree on Joe.

Who loses his CPA license? Clearly, Sam would. But maybe not Joe. Maybe the licensing agency decides that Joe's crime is outside the scope of their authority, and they'll let him practice accounting in prison like Andy Dufresne.

To bring it back to point - what UNC did is clearly worse than what RU did. However, what UNC did MAY not have been within the purview of NCAA enforcement. At least UNC appears to be willing to bet its athletic life that it isn't. Whereas what RU did clearly fell within the NCAA purview.

 

[GSGS]

UNC will not back down and right or wrong I love their willingness to fight. Yes, the NCAA has the upper hand right now, but engaging in a legal fight that might go to the State of NC's Supreme Court carries some inherent risk for the NCAA. I could be wrong but I believe that UNC will hand the NCAA an envelope with a list of sanctions that are acceptable and that will be the end of this saga.

RU31trap - if you love UNC's willingness to fight so much here, but all they did was to stage faux classes for their "student"-athletes, I guess that you would REALLY love them if they covered up child molestation as well!

 

[RU31trap]

RU31trap - if you love UNC's willingness to fight so much here, but all they did was to stage faux classes for their "student"-athletes, I guess that you would REALLY love them if they covered up child molestation as well!

Oh no!!! You're back!!!

 

[RUinPinehurst]

Ex-UNC support staffer, Mary Willingham, weighs in. See: paperclassinc.com/the-beat-goes-on/

 

[MADHAT1]

UNC will not back down and right or wrong I love their willingness to fight. Yes, the NCAA has the upper hand right now, but engaging in a legal fight that might go to the State of NC's Supreme Court carries some inherent risk for the NCAA. I could be wrong but I believe that UNC will hand the NCAA an envelope with a list of sanctions that are acceptable and that will be the end of this saga.

UNC seen how the NCAA looks for a way out when challenged by a determined foe that has its boosters supporting the fight financially and politically.
UNC knows with enough political pressure, lawsuits filed and a few in the media supporting their cause while nitpicking everything the NCAA is doing elsewhere will get them a good deal and a light sentence.
Heavy fines won't be a problem as long as the penalties wind up being light on the FB & MBB programs. A slap on wrist and no post season bans with a hefty fine along with NC saying I'm sorry will be the final result.

What's the right thing to do won't be what comes out of this, the NCAA backing down (again) because of the pressure put on them will be how this issue is settled.

 

[RU31trap]

UNC seen how the NCAA looks for a way out when challenged by a determined foe that has its boosters supporting the fight financially and politically.
UNC knows with enough political pressure, lawsuits filed and a few in the media supporting their cause while nitpicking everything the NCAA is doing elsewhere will get them a good deal and a light sentence.
Heavy fines won't be a problem as long as the penalties wind up being light on the FB & MBB programs. A slap on wrist and no post season bans with a hefty fine along with NC saying I'm sorry will be the final result.

What's the right thing to do won't be what comes out of this, the NCAA backing down (again) because of the pressure put on them will be how this issue is settled.

Why can't there be a happy medium where NCAA can administer a moderate slap on the wrist with an outcome where UNC can be allowed to survive.

 

[GSGS]

UNC will not back down and right or wrong I love their willingness to fight. Yes, the NCAA has the upper hand right now, but engaging in a legal fight that might go to the State of NC's Supreme Court carries some inherent risk for the NCAA. I could be wrong but I believe that UNC will hand the NCAA an envelope with a list of sanctions that are acceptable and that will be the end of this saga.

Well I must say this is a terrific analogy. Before I respond let's map out the players.
Sandusky=Nazi's
United States=NCAA
Germany=PSU

The US knew that the Nazi's had to be defeated, but not the German people or Germany as a country. By allowing Germany to rebuild post WWII they became the most powerful country in all of Europe. The NCAA did the same with PSU and UNC. They punished but did not destroy them. In the end Sandusky rots in jail and PSU is on track to winning another NC. From what I've read the kids Sandusky molested are multi-millionaires.

RU31trap - I must admit that I feel guilty sometimes when calling out your inconsistencies and hypocrisies, it is like shooting fish in a barrel. Here, just under two weeks ago (in the JayPaterknow thread), you had thought that the NCAA had already meted out punishment to UNC.

BTW, I belong here, I'm a Rutgers fan, not a Pedd State fan.

 

[MADHAT1]

Why can't there be find a happy medium where NCAA can administer a moderate slap on the wrist with an outcome where UNC can be allowed to survive.

Could very well be one;
My suggestion would be change the wording from Student/Athlete to Athlete that can be a student if he/she wants to.
Then only punish the schools that have their Athletes claiming to be students.

 

[Rufaninga]

How can NCAA clearing House have jurisdiction to hold up a kid from playing for a questionable grade in HS, but not fraudulent classes at UNC?

 

[KingHigh]

There should not really be any rules anyway. It's minor league sports. They affiliate with colleges in order to capture a fan base which otherwise would not pay any attention to it. I'll be honest. These kids grades is the absolute furthest thing from my mind or concern. I'm entertained most when the team wins. Entertain me. While you're here, feel free to go to college classes and get an education. If not, that's perfectly okay.

This is the winning formula. Embrace it unapologetically and winning will follow. The schools that commit too much to the charade that this is actually scholastic athletics are the ones with the least wins, but perhaps slightly higher GPAs. This is the Rutgers formula.

Of course, if all schools were allowed to participate in applying the winning formula, the playing field would be level and there might be some vertical movement for teams. The NCAA exists to ensure that never happens.

 

[Scarlet_Scourge]

Anyone who compares Rutgers to UNC is just not seeing the forest for the trees sorry but you are way off. That is like comparing a speeding ticket to a hit and run... not cool.

Not even close. Please stop, it is embarrassing.

 

[mikemarc1]

Probably in the minority here, but UNC will rightfully get off in this case.

Not saying what UNC did was OK. Obviously it wasn't.

But this is a University issue, not an athletics issue. It's a University issue that athletics benefited from. Don't think NCAA should get involved here.

Much like the thin line at Penn State. Yes, horrible things happened. But more of a University issue, not an athletics issue, which is why NCAA took away punishment.

 

[KingHigh]

Anyone who compares Rutgers to UNC is just not seeing the forest for the trees sorry but you are way off. That is like comparing a speeding ticket to a hit and run... not cool.

Not even close. Please stop, it is embarrassing.

You are right. UNC is operating winning football and basketball programs.

 

[MADHAT1]

Probably in the minority here, but UNC will rightfully get off in this case.

Not saying what UNC did was OK. Obviously it wasn't.

But this is a University issue, not an athletics issue. It's a University issue that athletics benefited from. Don't think NCAA should get involved here.

Much like the thin line at Penn State. Yes, horrible things happened. But more of a University issue, not an athletics issue, which is why NCAA took away punishment.

Splitting hairs.
Penn St had muscle behind them financially and politically to fight the sanctions.
Sanctions were justified because of the cover-up being done to protect the football programs image and it's HC's reputation.
PSU got the sanctions reduced because of technicalities and the NCAA having their reputation taking a hit by some in the media who looked at Penn St in a favorable light and went after the NCAA any chance they got on issues the NCAA was involved with.
The reason the NCAA brought in ex Senator Mitchell wasn't to make sure Penn St was in full compliance, but to make sure the NCAA could make a graceful exit from their fight with Penn St and its supporters.

UNC had their athletes take phony classes knowing they were fraudulent, but by those athletes taking paper classes it was easier to keep the NC players eligible.Tahis is something the NCAA should have jurisdiction over alonmg with Government Academic Agencies concerned about and have the right to punish UNC for doing.

But UNC seen how PSU attacked the NCAA and are doing the same type of tactic and your comparison shows it works.
I doubt the NCAA will go all the way and like the PSU learned their lesson BS, the NCAA will look for a graceful exit .

 

[mikemarc1]

Probably in the minority here, but UNC will rightfully get off in this case.

Not saying what UNC did was OK. Obviously it wasn't.

But this is a University issue, not an athletics issue. It's a University issue that athletics benefited from. Don't think NCAA should get involved here.

Much like the thin line at Penn State. Yes, horrible things happened. But more of a University issue, not an athletics issue, which is why NCAA took away punishment.

Splitting hairs.
Penn St had muscle behind them financially and politically to fight the sanctions.
Sanctions were justified because of the cover-up being done to protect the football programs image and it's HC's reputation.
PSU got the sanctions reduced because of technicalities and the NCAA having their reputation taking a hit by some in the media who looked at Penn St in a favorable light and went after the NCAA any chance they got on issues the NCAA was involved with.
The reason the NCAA brought in ex Senator Mitchell wasn't to make sure Penn St was in full compliance, but to make sure the NCAA could make a graceful exit from their fight with Penn St and its supporters.

UNC had their athletes take phony classes knowing they were fraudulent, but by those athletes taking paper classes it was easier to keep the NC players eligible.Tahis is something the NCAA should have jurisdiction over alonmg with Government Academic Agencies concerned about and have the right to punish UNC for doing.

But UNC seen how PSU attacked the NCAA and are doing the same type of tactic and your comparison shows it works.
I doubt the NCAA will go all the way and like the PSU learned their lesson BS, the NCAA will look for a graceful exit .

It definitely works The NCAA is an athletics rules enforcer.

Covering up child rape isn't solely an athletics violation. Athletes in classes available to all students isn't solely an athletics violation. Lack of institutional control? Sure, but that's so broad. What's the punishment?

Again. NCAA enforcement is such a thin line...when to get involved and when not to.

 

[MADHAT1]

It definitely works The NCAA is an athletics rules enforcer.

Covering up child rape isn't solely an athletics violation. Athletes in classes available to all students isn't solely an athletics violation. Lack of institutional control? Sure, but that's so broad. What's the punishment?

Again. NCAA enforcement is such a thin line...when to get involved and when not to.

When players (UNC) or a athletic program (PSU) are involved the NCAA should become involved.
Another agency's involvement doesn't matter and multiple investigations from different agencies can share findings ( if not prejudicial to the party being investigated) in an effort to get all the facts before passing judgement and the possible punisment that might come with it.

 

[mikemarc1]

It definitely works The NCAA is an athletics rules enforcer.

Covering up child rape isn't solely an athletics violation. Athletes in classes available to all students isn't solely an athletics violation. Lack of institutional control? Sure, but that's so broad. What's the punishment?

Again. NCAA enforcement is such a thin line...when to get involved and when not to.

When players (UNC) or a athletic program (PSU) are involved the NCAA should become involved.
Another agency's involvement doesn't matter and multiple investigations from different agencies can share findings ( if not prejudicial to the party being investigated) in an effort to get all the facts before passing judgement and the possible punisment that might come with it.

Fair enough.

Just think at the end of they day, the UNC scandal is far more than an athletics scandal. And in that case, rightfully or wrongly, that's not the ncaas responsibility and thus they won't sanction them.

 

[Rufaninga]

Fair enough.

Just think at the end of they day, the UNC scandal is far more than an athletics scandal. And in that case, rightfully or wrongly, that's not the ncaas responsibility and thus they won't sanction them.

If athletes don't maintain a certain GPA, they are not eligible to play. If you play with ineligible player you can be forced to vacate win. Setting up sham classes to keep athletes eligible is exactly what NCAA should guard against. Also setting up sham classes should be violation of accreditation. If university is not accredited they do not qualify to participate in NCAA competition.

I'm not sure why some people think this does not pertain to athletics.

 

[Doctor Worm]

Like any administrative organization, the NCAA is ultimately beholden to its member institutions. Those member institutions were reportedly REALLY pissed at PSU after the Sandusky fiasco. PSU's willingness to agree to the consent decree may have been all that saved them from the death penalty. Remember, it wasn't PSU who initiated the legal proceedings that got the sanctions reversed. It was a PA state legislator who represented the State College district. And as we know the NCAA caved.

So the questions are... is the NCAA membership as pissed at UNC as they were at PSU? UNC is giving the NCAA a big fat middle finger... will the member institutions take it personally? If so, will they direct NCAA leadership - their employees - to grow a spine?

 

[mikemarc1]

Fair enough.

Just think at the end of they day, the UNC scandal is far more than an athletics scandal. And in that case, rightfully or wrongly, that's not the ncaas responsibility and thus they won't sanction them.

If athletes don't maintain a certain GPA, they are not eligible to play. If you play with ineligible player you can be forced to vacate win. Setting up sham classes to keep athletes eligible is exactly what NCAA should guard against. Also setting up sham classes should be violation of accreditation. If university is not accredited they do not qualify to participate in NCAA competition.

I'm not sure why some people think this does not pertain to athletics.

I never said it doesn't pertain to athletics. There were athletes in fake classes. That's an athletics issue.

However, athletes weren't treated differently per reports. Anyone was eligible for these classes. Hence, academic scandal and not athletic scandal, imo.

Once again, such a thin line. I think NCAA should just dissolve and each case handled by the conferences. They're more involved in the academic aspect.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

Why can't there be a happy medium where NCAA can administer a moderate slap on the wrist with an outcome where UNC can be allowed to survive.

There it is.. the very reason why the NCAA should do MORE than "a moderate slap on the wrist".

Because doing so will just encourage others to ignore the rules and you'll have folks like notRU31trap supporting them.

 

[delaynomore]

So where are the academic acrediting agencies? Fake classes for decades should concern them. No?

 

[RUinPinehurst]

I never said it doesn't pertain to athletics. There were athletes in fake classes. That's an athletics issue.

However, athletes weren't treated differently per reports. Anyone was eligible for these classes. Hence, academic scandal and not athletic scandal, imo.

Once again, such a thin line. I think NCAA should just dissolve and each case handled by the conferences. They're more involved in the academic aspect.

Athletes were treated differently. Read the Wainstein Report. Read tbe emails he attaches to the report. There was accommodation specific to athletes such as independent studies classes for just a few athletes and exclusive to athletes; this was never the case for non-athletes.

Further, evidence supports some 561 forged grade changes for athletes and only athletes. These benefits were performed by an AFAM admin solely to improve those athletes GPAs, to esure their eligibilty to play.

UNC's creative cheating ensured access to non-athletes by design. 23 of the first 25 students to take and benefit from these fake classes were Dean Smith's BB players.

The transcripts tell all. Those non-student athletes who gained access to these fake classes were not your typical undergrads but were legacy UNC privileged frat boys who needed a GPA boost as well. A "win-win" for sure, courtesy of the Rams Club.

Further, the NCAA does not concern itself with non-student athletes. It only concerns itself with student-athletes. As far as the NCAA is concerned, a booster can give a non-student-athlete a car to use. But a booster cannot give a student-athlete a car to use. That is an impermissible benefit. Student-athletes must adhere to NCAA rules that do not apply to other students.

 

[1873]

Even the document formatting is an F'IN disgrace. UNC wasted millions of taxpayer dollars for a law firm to CYA who can't even format a PDF of lies.

DEATH PENALTY JUST FOR THE PAGES BREAKS AND INDENTS!!!

 

[czxqa]

If athletes don't maintain a certain GPA, they are not eligible to play. If you play with ineligible player you can be forced to vacate win. Setting up sham classes to keep athletes eligible is exactly what NCAA should guard against. Also setting up sham classes should be violation of accreditation. If university is not accredited they do not qualify to participate in NCAA competition.

I'm not sure why some people think this does not pertain to athletics.

And further to your point, if all a school needs to do to escape NCAA enforcement is let some other students take the fake classes too, well, then anyone can do that.

 

[RU_DIO]

The school designed classes to keep athletes and students eligible and thousands benefitted from it. This was internally done by the University, not some boosters providing illegal benefits. UNC should have a major punishment levied against it because it was a lack of institutional control and a conspiracy to defy NCAA eligibility rules.