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OT: Weather policy thread for the usual posters

I guess it depends on how its implemented.

Local knowledge certainly is beneficial in forecasting - its why we need forecasters in the first place instead of just taking model output and throwing it out there as the forecast.

But I dont think you need to be on the ground in a location to be a good local forecaster. As long as you still have people specializing in a given locality, it shouldnt be an issue. The issue would be if you attempt to reduce staff over time and people end up being responsible for larger regions, or within the regional office, even without staff reductions, they end up using people interchangably on a regular basis.

And it could draw better meteorologists - since the 6 regional offices are likely to be in more desirable locations than the current offices. One of the downsides of starting out as a govt meteorologist (or on air actually) is that you might have to start out in Elko, NV or Sioux Falls, IA, which probably keeps alot of people from even bothering.

I would imagine - based on the locating at existing govt agencies and universities you would see UCLA or Washington (covering the west coast), Boulder (MW), NOAA main offce in DC or PSU (NE), Miami or Huntsville (SE), OU (lower plains), and maybe Wisconsin (great lakes).
 
I can't see this being a good idea. All the points made about loss of local knowledge are very valid.

Put it this way - if Gary Szatkowski of NWS Mt. Holly hadn't taken things into his own hands, pre-Sandy (while Bloomberg's people were saying "It's not going to be that bad!") a lot of people would have died on the Jersey Shore.
 
I can't see this being a good idea. All the points made about loss of local knowledge are very valid.

Put it this way - if Gary Szatkowski of NWS Mt. Holly hadn't taken things into his own hands, pre-Sandy (while Bloomberg's people were saying "It's not going to be that bad!") a lot of people would have died on the Jersey Shore.
Did he have to be in Mount Holly to do that?
 
Did he have to be in Mount Holly to do that?

I'd say yes. Because as NJ's resident NWS met-in-chief, he's familiar with the hydrodynamics of the Jersey shore. The NHC folks weren't suggesting that the storm surge was going to be anywhere near as bad as it was. Nobody but Gary understood what happens when you fetch an 80 kt. wind from the south east straight into Raritan Bay. Sayreville took 18 1/2 feet of water. The bayshore communities took 12-14'. Gary knew that was going to happen. Nobody else was even close.
 
I'd say yes. Because as NJ's resident NWS met-in-chief, he's familiar with the hydrodynamics of the Jersey shore. The NHC folks weren't suggesting that the storm surge was going to be anywhere near as bad as it was. Nobody but Gary understood what happens when you fetch an 80 kt. wind from the south east straight into Raritan Bay. Sayreville took 18 1/2 feet of water. The bayshore communities took 12-14'. Gary knew that was going to happen. Nobody else was even close.
Yes. But I'm assuming the NE regional office will also have a NJ desk, and given the difficulty of obtaining these jobs, it will stay with the same guy for a relatively long time.

On a side note - RU should try to get in on the action of hosting a regional NWS office. Dont let PSU and UMCP monopolize the northeastern met talent.
 
Yes. But I'm assuming the NE regional office will also have a NJ desk, and given the difficulty of obtaining these jobs, it will stay with the same guy for a relatively long time.

On a side note - RU should try to get in on the action of hosting a regional NWS office. Dont let PSU and UMCP monopolize the northeastern met talent.

Taking your suggestion to its ultimate conclusion, I don't see much cost savings.

One of the things that Gary and his staff do - VERY well, and very frequently - is community outreach. They hold training courses and seminars for individuals and organizations with specific weather interests. They get out into the community on a regular basis. That's the transfer mechanism for the kind of "local knowledge" that we're discussing.

So if you want to maintain that, then theoretically you'd have to have pretty much the same number of people on your "NJ desk" as you currently do in Mt. Holly and you'd have to pay to send them on near-constant field excursions in order to maintain the relationship between New Jersey weather than the people most impacted by it.

I agree with your second point wholeheartedly. One thing I will point out, in case you weren't aware, is that the marine sciences folks at RU do, in fact, work very closely with various NOAA organizations, including the NWS, and their efforts are regarded very highly.
 
Taking your suggestion to its ultimate conclusion, I don't see much cost savings.

One of the things that Gary and his staff do - VERY well, and very frequently - is community outreach. They hold training courses and seminars for individuals and organizations with specific weather interests. They get out into the community on a regular basis. That's the transfer mechanism for the kind of "local knowledge" that we're discussing.

So if you want to maintain that, then theoretically you'd have to have pretty much the same number of people on your "NJ desk" as you currently do in Mt. Holly and you'd have to pay to send them on near-constant field excursions in order to maintain the relationship between New Jersey weather than the people most impacted by it.

I agree with your second point wholeheartedly. One thing I will point out, in case you weren't aware, is that the marine sciences folks at RU do, in fact, work very closely with various NOAA organizations, including the NWS, and their efforts are regarded very highly.
They are maintaining that - they are keeping the offices open for outreach., although I guess it will be more by PR flacks than operational mets.

While IMCS does work wit NOAA, the met department at RU is unfortunately not very focused on research. Im sure if this passes the Northeast region would either be PSU or the DC area, and that the RU brass wont even be aware that this thing is going on.
 
They are maintaining that - they are keeping the offices open for outreach., although I guess it will be more by PR flacks than operational mets.

While IMCS does work wit NOAA, the met department at RU is unfortunately not very focused on research. Im sure if this passes the Northeast region would either be PSU or the DC area, and that the RU brass wont even be aware that this thing is going on.

Well, maybe it's an opportunity for knowledgeable alumni and supporters to lobby the school for sake of its own improvement.
 
Good discussion. My biggest concern is the same one the NWS employees union has, i.e., that centralizing is just the first step to major job reductions, despite what the politicians are saying. At the end of the day, I think, as proposed, the new system could work with most folks at regional offices, but including subteams for each local area, just that they're housed at a regional HQ, and still including some local staff for data collection and communications with local authorities.

And having a lot less mets to make good local forecasts (whether in NJ or some regional center) would be a disservice to public safety, as these guys generally do a great job and generally (not always, of course, with last year's "blizzard" being the worst example in years) do better than most private sector forecasts. I'm not 100% convinced having forecasters physically local to an area is that important, however.

Despite 4Real's comments about the NWS vs. the NHC, the NHC did better with storm surge forecasts than either the NYC or Philly offices of the NWS, as per the attached from Bryan Norcross, from TWC, who is one of the best in the business. The NWS had low storm surge predictions on Friday and Saturday and didn't catch up to the more dire NHC predictions until Sunday, one day before landfall.

http://www.wunderground.com/blog/bnorcross/unraveling-the-sandy-stormsurge-forecast

The point Norcross makes is a good one: the local NWS guys are good at local forecasts, but the NHC guys are the storm surge experts (they're the ones who run the models and study tropical systems full time). Way too many people were comparing it to Irene, which was a horrible comparison, but by far the most negligent folks were in the NYC emergency management team, who completely blew it on Sandy, by providing horrible information.

And the NHC/NWS decision to not issue hurricane watches/warnings, while technically "correct" (given that the system was morphing into an extratropical one), was bad from a public safety perspective - they should've scared the crap out of people given the potential impact, rather than worrying about being "correct." It's likely that more people would've evacuated and there would've been less loss of life and property.

Having said all that, Szatkowski and the NWS-Philly clearly did a much better job of communicating with emergency officials and getting evacuations going than they did in NY. Szatkowski was out in front, leading the charge for evacuations (even if their surge forecasts were too low - they were still high enough to demand action), while Bloomberg and the NYC folks were minimizing the risks right up to 48 hours before landfall. See the link below.

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/...y-showed-limits-of-an-accurate-forecast-16648

To me, the bottom line is that I simply don't want to see a reduction in meteorologists paid to protect the public and I'd like to see our government spending more money on improving the models and ensuring we have enough satellites (and balloons and weather flights into storms) to provide the data we need to feed the models to make better forecasts. There's no way we should still be behind the Europeans on this (with the models).
 
Good discussion. My biggest concern is the same one the NWS employees union has, i.e., that centralizing is just the first step to major job reductions, despite what the politicians are saying. At the end of the day, I think, as proposed, the new system could work with most folks at regional offices, but including subteams for each local area, just that they're housed at a regional HQ, and still including some local staff for data collection and communications with local authorities.

And having a lot less mets to make good local forecasts (whether in NJ or some regional center) would be a disservice to public safety, as these guys generally do a great job and generally (not always, of course, with last year's "blizzard" being the worst example in years) do better than most private sector forecasts. I'm not 100% convinced having forecasters physically local to an area is that important, however.

Despite 4Real's comments about the NWS vs. the NHC, the NHC did better with storm surge forecasts than either the NYC or Philly offices of the NWS, as per the attached from Bryan Norcross, from TWC, who is one of the best in the business. The NWS had low storm surge predictions on Friday and Saturday and didn't catch up to the more dire NHC predictions until Sunday, one day before landfall.

http://www.wunderground.com/blog/bnorcross/unraveling-the-sandy-stormsurge-forecast

The point Norcross makes is a good one: the local NWS guys are good at local forecasts, but the NHC guys are the storm surge experts (they're the ones who run the models and study tropical systems full time). Way too many people were comparing it to Irene, which was a horrible comparison, but by far the most negligent folks were in the NYC emergency management team, who completely blew it on Sandy, by providing horrible information.

And the NHC/NWS decision to not issue hurricane watches/warnings, while technically "correct" (given that the system was morphing into an extratropical one), was bad from a public safety perspective - they should've scared the crap out of people given the potential impact, rather than worrying about being "correct." It's likely that more people would've evacuated and there would've been less loss of life and property.

Having said all that, Szatkowski and the NWS-Philly clearly did a much better job of communicating with emergency officials and getting evacuations going than they did in NY. Szatkowski was out in front, leading the charge for evacuations (even if their surge forecasts were too low - they were still high enough to demand action), while Bloomberg and the NYC folks were minimizing the risks right up to 48 hours before landfall. See the link below.

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/...y-showed-limits-of-an-accurate-forecast-16648

To me, the bottom line is that I simply don't want to see a reduction in meteorologists paid to protect the public and I'd like to see our government spending more money on improving the models and ensuring we have enough satellites (and balloons and weather flights into storms) to provide the data we need to feed the models to make better forecasts. There's no way we should still be behind the Europeans on this (with the models).
Theres no reason that can't work. For example - the Weather Prediction Center has literally different desks for areas of concern (winter weather, hurricane, international, short term forecast, medium range, etc). I would imagine that the regional centers would be similar - with state or metro or whatever desks instead. If nothing else, you would get better consistency in snow fall forecasts.
 
Theres no reason that can't work. For example - the Weather Prediction Center has literally different desks for areas of concern (winter weather, hurricane, international, short term forecast, medium range, etc). I would imagine that the regional centers would be similar - with state or metro or whatever desks instead. If nothing else, you would get better consistency in snow fall forecasts.

WPC isn't the definitive local forecasting resource for any of those categories. They are an aggregating resource for the local NWS offices to reference.

I'm really not sure where you're going with this, anymore.
 
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