I like Pikell but I am not sure what the hell we are running on offense there is no off the ball movement and everything is one on one
Our Offense
- Thread starter richthedentist
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we have terrible shooters thats why, I think the team has confidence and it shows with how particular slow they move the ball...Mike Williams is particular awful at shooting. You cannot win if you dont have 3 point shooters...we dont have any really. Our guards are just okay at shooting and no forward has shown the ability to consistently hit. Eugene here and there but has disappeared of late
Compounded by the fact we play combinations where there are at best 3 guys who can score. We need to run.
Rutgers doesn't have players capable of breaking down their defender which is the reason the offense looks so ineffective.
I won't vouch for how good the offensive sets, coaching, strategy etc is right now. But the team can't pass the ball well as a group. Sanders is triple teamed...somebody is open if you space the floor and pass it quickly.
To ask for ball movement, cutting and player movement, requires the play itself to have the crisp, quick ability to dribble, pass and shoot....
I am not saying this will be miles better next year, but as talented as Freeman may be in an isolation, he is not an off the dribble player.....Thiam barely dribbles and can shield the defender with his body and get low enough to protect the ball from a defender....Sa, Doorson and Doucoure are bigs and not designed for that type of movement offense.....Eugene actually can, but he doesn't have the shooting part down and is a stationary shooter, not off the dribble.....but is a capable passer.
Baker and Corey are really the only ones you can ask to make cuts and slashes to the basket....to Mike Williams credit, he has expanded his game to improve his movement off the ball with a couple of dribbles before he makes a play, but is still best suited as a spot up shooter that is "catch and shoot"......we don't have enough guards and forwards that can generate space off the dribble to make a Mike Williams more effective.
There is one real option RU has and it's to slow the pace down and try and find space to create gaps for Corey and Geo to find room...there isn't any movement players that can run to a spot as a forward to catch and shoot, Purdue has 3 of them and one more off the bench in Noel Eastern as a Top 100 player that can't find minutes on this team.
I cannot emphasize enough how much of a difference it makes when a program is in Years 4, 5 and 6 and can find the right fits, more skilled players that go through the development....and a staff that understands the type of player they need to fit what they want to run.
The RU staff is an excellent staff.....while we can debate whether the players for 2017 (Baker and Doucoure) are good enough now to be heavy contributors, in the few flashes of play, both just need players that can help them down the road that fit what we want to run.....the 4 shots that Doucoure hit at the end of the shot clock, were impressive....I took away that from the game that if there is better movement off the ball and Kiss, Mathis and perhaps a Hyatt with Harper can dribble and generate space for themselves off the dribble, the shooting will improve some.
We can only win with defense, rebounding and hustle and hope for better shooting nights, but Purdue is a complete team, in sync and with pieces that fit exactly what they want to do....not every program in the B1G is in sync, but RU will get there.
I am not saying this will be miles better next year, but as talented as Freeman may be in an isolation, he is not an off the dribble player.....Thiam barely dribbles and can shield the defender with his body and get low enough to protect the ball from a defender....Sa, Doorson and Doucoure are bigs and not designed for that type of movement offense.....Eugene actually can, but he doesn't have the shooting part down and is a stationary shooter, not off the dribble.....but is a capable passer.
Baker and Corey are really the only ones you can ask to make cuts and slashes to the basket....to Mike Williams credit, he has expanded his game to improve his movement off the ball with a couple of dribbles before he makes a play, but is still best suited as a spot up shooter that is "catch and shoot"......we don't have enough guards and forwards that can generate space off the dribble to make a Mike Williams more effective.
There is one real option RU has and it's to slow the pace down and try and find space to create gaps for Corey and Geo to find room...there isn't any movement players that can run to a spot as a forward to catch and shoot, Purdue has 3 of them and one more off the bench in Noel Eastern as a Top 100 player that can't find minutes on this team.
I cannot emphasize enough how much of a difference it makes when a program is in Years 4, 5 and 6 and can find the right fits, more skilled players that go through the development....and a staff that understands the type of player they need to fit what they want to run.
The RU staff is an excellent staff.....while we can debate whether the players for 2017 (Baker and Doucoure) are good enough now to be heavy contributors, in the few flashes of play, both just need players that can help them down the road that fit what we want to run.....the 4 shots that Doucoure hit at the end of the shot clock, were impressive....I took away that from the game that if there is better movement off the ball and Kiss, Mathis and perhaps a Hyatt with Harper can dribble and generate space for themselves off the dribble, the shooting will improve some.
We can only win with defense, rebounding and hustle and hope for better shooting nights, but Purdue is a complete team, in sync and with pieces that fit exactly what they want to do....not every program in the B1G is in sync, but RU will get there.
Corey and Baker are the only 2 guys that can create, break down and hit....but once a team figures out they are the only 2 they have to worry about(along with Freeman sometimes near the bucket) teams simply sag/help out on those two & we go nowhere.
I also see our entire team dashing to get back on D instead of challenging for a defensive rebound....way too often. Some of the Purdue rebounds their players picked up off the floor.. after missing
We just dont have enough weapons,,,,,teams figure us out real quickly
I also see our entire team dashing to get back on D instead of challenging for a defensive rebound....way too often. Some of the Purdue rebounds their players picked up off the floor.. after missing
We just dont have enough weapons,,,,,teams figure us out real quickly
Yes, Sanders has the potential but not the consistency as seen this season.His lack of height has caused shots to be blocked ,altered or forced to pass with the shot clock running out.Opponents also have overplayed Sanders because he is perceived as Rutgers best player.
He needs to have the ball more and penetrate with the intention of passing. He is our NBA talent and he is playing off the ball as a 2 guard. He needs to have the keys to the offense. Let's see if our shooters are really as bad as we think positioned on the weak side getting passes off of penetration. Maybe sanders can get some hockey assists when we get open looks with the 2nd pass.
I would agree Greene! Although we do not do a good job on screen and roll, I would do more just 2 man sets , with either Corey or Geo at guard and Deshawn, Eugene or Duke as the screen and roller. Space the floor, everybody else on the other side of the floor and waiting to cut and catch and shoot. Miami did it with Coach Larranaga and their guard Shane Larkin a few years ago and Maryland did it with Melo for years . We have to try something else with this offense because the weave and the box set are not enough and have been less than effective
I didn't see the Stony Brook, but part of the problem is the fact that Rutgers is not great offensively and Hartford and Purdue found a way to make it even worse. Both Hartford and Purdue (in different ways) pressured the heck out of Sanders and Baker and kept them from getting the offense going. Against Hartford, it was the 1-3-1 zone where the ball handler was basically triple teamed and caused them to make lofty, floating passes to the other guard and slowed it down so the defense could recover and not let the guard attack. Purdue used their guards to pressure the ball handler from the midcourt line. Rutgers tried to screen to free up the guard, but got called for a ton of moving screens (last night and all season). It also put the ball into Freeman's hands, but not in a way where he could be free to get to the basket. Instead, he was immediately guarded by one of the 7 foot guys. That forced Freeman into jumpers or spinning away from the basket. Neither are strengths of his. If we had more shooters, it would help, because Rutgers had open shots from the 3 point line and had they made some early, it would have forced Purdue and Hartford to change their strategy. Not talented enough right now. Hartford and Stony Brook still should have been wins, but the blueprint to beat RU is out there right now.
Sorry, but I don't buy it takes 4-6 years to build a winner. This is not football. It all comes down to recruiting. If Rutgers is to become successful, it will take a few of the top Jersey kids to stick together and
come here as a group. What happens if after year 4 we are still at the bottom of the conference? Do we start over again? Kentucky somehow recruits an entire team of one and dones. That isn't going to happen at Rutgers. But recruiting a few top NJ kids shouldn't be impossible. While we are trying to build over a six year period everyone else is passing us by.
We need a couple great classes now.
The 27 year drought is a joke.
Sorry you don't like it, but that's just now how this team is going to win. Pikiell even said it at his press conference. He's going to recruit and develop talent and they won't be the "top Jersey guys" that just decide to stick around. He's getting talent and he's finding the guys who are interested in him, but they are not the one and done type. This will take a few years, but he's building it.
Pikiell is also going to have to live with his misses, and they will cost him games.
The juco tunnel should rarely be targeted. Unless it is a top 20 player, it is not going to be useful for him going forward. Mensah was probably in the #300 number as a player in JUCO. Nothing stood out about his play. When you are the only one looking at a kid, that should be a red flag.
His misses will obviously cost him.
The juco tunnel should rarely be targeted. Unless it is a top 20 player, it is not going to be useful for him going forward. Mensah was probably in the #300 number as a player in JUCO. Nothing stood out about his play. When you are the only one looking at a kid, that should be a red flag.
His misses will obviously cost him.
Is this a mindset that will work in the America East, but not the big ten? It might be.
He is getting some of the players he needs now. Too many four year players and it will be hard to get out of the 14 spot.
Worked at Pittsburgh. At West Virginia. Worked at Wisconsin. It works, you just have to show patience and be confident in your coach.
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So while we are taking 6 years to become competitive,
the other Big10 teams surpass us.
It's not easy recruiting when we remain near the bottom of the league for so long.
Why is it most other teams can rebuild relatively faster while at Rutgers it's a project still seeking success?
By your logic it will be 33 years until we have a chance to get to the NCAA tourney.
Maybe that's the reason we have trouble building a fan base.
Yes, it will probably be between 31 and 33 years before we make the tournament.
The reason others have done it is that for the the past 20 of those 27 years, Rutgers has worked really hard to build a football program while letting basketball twirl in the wind. Rutgers was cash strapped and gambled to let football grow with investment while they hoped to strike gold with a coaching hire in hoops. They are finally investing in a coach who can coach and recruit well (though not to the level you want because this isn't Kentucky and we likely won't cheat) and now you have to let him build his team. You can't just snap your fingers and win. It doesn't happen that way. You have to go through the process and hope each recruiting class is better than the last (so far so good) and develop the players you have (we'll see, but again it looks good). This takes time.
To be honest, I always see four year kids and think 3 star players. I have to change that perception. Pikiell is doing what needs to be done from a recruiting standpoint. He is getting a couple high level players, and mixing and matching.
It's not fair to judge him on his first year recruits because when you are trying to field a team, you have to take some people you may not take in your third year. Still, some players have been strike outs, and are hurting his program at the current moment.
I have no doubt that Pikiell is the right person for the job. I have a belief he will bring Rutgers to prominence in the NCAA.
He knows how to do it.
This would make a huge difference:
Yep because look at it this way, both the AP & ESPN Pre-season All-American 1st Teams both had a senior (Colson & Delgado). And ESPN had 7 seniors spread out over their 4 teams.
I don’t see folks questioning Coach K because Grayson Allen had to stay 4 years to develop or the same for Ethan Happ.
And there are those who had to return as juniors like Nova’s Brunson or Arizona’s Trier.
Rutgers has the potential to have a very good team 2 years from now if players continue to develop and improve
The whole basis of the latest rebuild process is wishful thinking and not based on fact.Success or failure will be dependent on far better recruiting which was the case in the past and it didn't happen.Rutgers fans are starving for a winning product and to be told it might take another 4- 6 years for a NCAA bid isn't what they want to hear.
Recruiting has improved over the past two years to be much better than what it was over the last five. It's not wishful thinking. It's looking at what's worked at other schools who don't recruit at the level of Dukes or Kentuckys or UCLAs or Villanovas and trying to decide if it's happening here. I think it is. I'm sorry you're impatient. I would love for Pikiell to snap his fingers and poof NCAAs. But it's not going to happen here that way. It will happen like it did at Pittsburgh or Cincinnatti. Pikiell will recruit talent and develop them. Hopefully, he'll have a team that is on the bubble in year 4 or 5 and then land the player that puts him over the top. Being in with Valdir Manuel and Aundre Hyatt (if he reclassifies) for 2018 is a good sign and hopefully the scholarships open up and he lands them. Being in with Mulcahy is big too. But I don't think these are players that are snap of the fingers players. They are the types that will need to develop too. It's going to take at least 2 to 3 more years to be an NCAA team--if there aren't any slip ups--and that's a 4-5-6 year rebuild. It's just the way it has to happen here... I don't expect Rutgers will every recruit the way it takes to do it in one year.
I have watched over and over again and I see RU players getting good looks quite often, not on every set, but often. Then they miss the shot. We can't shoot. Plain and simple. Without being able to finish there is no offense. Maybe this changes next year as many here seem to think the incoming players are good shooters. Until we get shooters you can't evaluate an offense.
Not being able to shoot kills an entire offense. If a defense doesn't worry about you shooting, they can crowd the lane more and make sure there's no room to operate inside. Think about if Freeman has the ball on the wing. The defense doesn't need to play up on him because even if he's wide open and shoots it, that's a good outcome for the defense. So they can play more to shut down passing lane and deny the ball inside.
Ever wonder why we take so many 2-point jump shots? It's because that's the shot defenses want us to take, so it's what's open.
Ever wonder why we take so many 2-point jump shots? It's because that's the shot defenses want us to take, so it's what's open.
The defense they play which requires moving thru screens and boxing out and running hard, when will they have legs to shoot? That is the problem our guards get winded and the shots are either rolling in and out or off back rim. We can shoot just need to adjust when that happens, maybe a higher arc on the release point.
Lets Go Scarlet Knights.
Vs man offense should always be as follows: all players other than Corey and Geo stand next to one of the sidelines and hope those defenders are so confused they don't help. And we play 2v2 with Corey and Geo.
This is an underrated point. Without elite players, it's almost impossible to be great both ways. Michigan State this year is an example of a team doing both: 5th on offense, 3rd on defense per KenPom. Even Villanova is "only" 28th on defense vs. 2nd on offense. Virginia and Cincinnati always have great defenses but never seem to quite get there on offense. Coach K and Duke famously eschew defense for offense during the season with the assumption that, with their great athletes, they can turn on the defense in the tournament. Sometimes it works and they win the title, sometimes it doesn't and they go out in round 1.
Rutgers right now is 264th on offense and 30th on defense. If we truly tried to optimize the offense, I'd wager we could get to 180-200. But it would come at the expense of our defense, probably dropping us out of the top 100 there.
Only one time in his career has a Pikiell-coached team had a better offense than defense, and that was 179 (offense) vs. (183) defense. Like it or not, this is our identity and even with better players our team is going to be more like Miami, or Texas, or Cincinnati.
Watching a mediocre Stanford team beat a young, but talented UCLA team last night confirmed what I feared -- we are still a couple of years away. Pikiell needs one more strong class after this year's class. Until we have shooters and finishers we are stalled. Defense and rebounding have taken us as far as we can go.
Playing hard DFense, running to get back, boxing out and Freeman not being able to pass out and Corey going right not passing out will limit our shot selections.
Our hoops problems seem to correspond with our football ills.We are shooting handicapped (bb),& passing deficient(fb).These programs will not progress until there are drastic upgrades in each of these areas.
I agree with your assessment but the problem areas cited have not been resolved for years for football and decades for basketball.There must be a sense of urgency when you are a member of a power conference or the losing becomes more difficult to overcome .
That isn't what you said. You said that we couldn't shoot because we play hard defense, fight thru screens and have no legs under us when we shoot. Fact is we get a lot of good looks and we simply miss. It is not a good shooting team and until we get shooters we will not win on a consistent basis.
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