Well, using that standard, why are any of us on message boards?
Penn State at Illinois
- Thread starter MadRU
- Start date
We can't finish 0 for 4 and 1 and 10. If we do we deserve last place. Being where we are at 10th, with frankly 4 winnable games...we need to win at least 1.
Agreed, at least to the extent that this means we have a shot at catching Illinois
Because no one on this board talks about weather, either... lol
I can imagine the broadcast: "Multicar pile up on 287 today... but since we can't control the weather, we're not going to waste time talking about what happened..."
Really never understood why discussion of officiating is off limits to some people. It's kinda bizarre.
We talk about literally every other aspect of games, and how they might impact the outcome. Illness, injury, coaching, strength and conditioning, player heights and weights, player age.... in football we talk about temperature, weather, time of day, time zone... Nothing is off the table for discussion. Individual performances are dissected - from coaching decisions, player decisions and execution... even fan participation.
Yet with officiating? That's somehow verboten.
Discussing officiating is just as significant as any of those other topics.
We talk about literally every other aspect of games, and how they might impact the outcome. Illness, injury, coaching, strength and conditioning, player heights and weights, player age.... in football we talk about temperature, weather, time of day, time zone... Nothing is off the table for discussion. Individual performances are dissected - from coaching decisions, player decisions and execution... even fan participation.
Yet with officiating? That's somehow verboten.
Discussing officiating is just as significant as any of those other topics.
There really should be no distinction between:
"If only the coach had made a better decision...."
"If only that player had/hadn't made that play..."
"If only that player wasn't injured/sick..."
"If only we had a better shooter on the roster at that position..."
"If only the fans were more engaged..."
and
"If only that ref had/hadn't made X call..."
For some reason, though, refs get the kiddie glove treatment, when they're just as human as everyone else and their performance is just as likely to influence the outcome of a game.
"If only the coach had made a better decision...."
"If only that player had/hadn't made that play..."
"If only that player wasn't injured/sick..."
"If only we had a better shooter on the roster at that position..."
"If only the fans were more engaged..."
and
"If only that ref had/hadn't made X call..."
For some reason, though, refs get the kiddie glove treatment, when they're just as human as everyone else and their performance is just as likely to influence the outcome of a game.
Its not off limits but its become ridiculous in game threads..every borderline call met with crying..even calls that are easily fouls..as if tv provides a better vantage point
There will always be bad calls. Unless its happening in the last minute or two its not directly impacting the outcome of the game IMO
Vic Law was likely fouled driving into the lane when RU was up 1 at NW but not many if any noticed that
In many cases, TV does provide a better vantage point - especially in moments when calls are made by the out of position referee 20+ feet away, rather than by the one closest to the play. TV also has the benefit of replay and slow motion - which allows a much more accurate picture of what happened than what the ref will have at live speed in the moment.
That's like saying "there will always be missed free throws - unless it's happening in the last minute or two, it's not directly impacting the outcome of the game"
One play doesn't define anything in a close game. In the Iowa game the game was determined by two possessions..an apparent game winner by RU and the game winner by Iowa
I agree that he was. But you forget that one of the key things in that game (which you even commented on in the postgame wrap up) was that a foul call was missed on Geo and shown over and over on the video board, and it brought the fans back into it - and the refs then shifted and gave us several favorable calls after that.
Officiating matters, and not just in the final seconds. The story in the Iowa game comes down to those two big shots.... but it was the performance of both teams AND the officials that got it to the point where it was a one possession game heading into those last two plays. It could have just as easily been a 2-3 possession game in that moment if either team, or the officiating crew, had performed differently.
In some situations it is - and that's why they go to replay and overturn calls, or confirm them. Do you disagree with replay being more accurate, too? Refs aren't superhuman.
Georgi missed at least 4 layups. He also dropped the ball on an entry pass several times. He played so much better against us. PSU now has 4 wins and plays us and finishes the season at home against Illinois. We better win tomorrow vs Minnesota to give us a little breathing room. PSU has been playing so much better these last few weeks.
Stevens is a very talented player who you want on the foul line in crunch time.Penn State is playing better than Rutgers right now because they have more scoring options.The March 6 match up is a must win for both teams to improve league rankings.
PSU has won 4 of 6
RU has lost 5 of 6
RU needs to beat Minnesota period
RU has lost 5 of 6
RU needs to beat Minnesota period
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because Fans don’t look at officiating objectively.
It is annoying listening to whining and excuses.
I am the 1st guy to get upset about a bad call, but to listen to fans at game whine after every call or non call is just growing tired. Blue dies not have a vendetta.
It is annoying listening to whining and excuses.
I am the 1st guy to get upset about a bad call, but to listen to fans at game whine after every call or non call is just growing tired. Blue dies not have a vendetta.
Agree completely about lack of objectivity, but we have that around our own players, too. Whether it's talking about a guy having no place on the team one minute, to deifying him the next, to then beating him up again. Talking about not winning another game early in the season, then talking about making the NCAA tourney a couple games later.
Fans are gonna fan, on some level.
With officiating, though, it's different. Instead of cooler or more knowledgeable heads trying to bring objectivity or educate, they frequently just say it's insignificant or fan whining.
A blown call has the same impact as a blown defensive assignment, missed open 3 or chippy layup or FT, or an opponent's circus shot with the clock expiring. It's just all of those others are talked about ad infinitum, and the call is somehow off limits for discussion to some posters.
Part of this is because ref performance isn't tracked as well, and data isn't available to discuss a ref's performance as a whole, rather than just in one game. If a guy doesn't call a moving screen, but there was data that showed he calls them in the bottom 10% of all refs - that's different context than just "he blew that call". The NCAA (and all sporting organizations) hide their officiating data.
Even when there's something egregious like Doherty in the NBA, they claim that there was no impact to games and don't open the books. And I'm sure there were plenty of people who complained about officiating in the games he influenced, and plenty more who told them they were whining without actually looking at things objectively.
Bac.....
You do great work and i consider extremely fair and knowledgeable...but if refs didn't have an impact on flow of the game, foul trouble, why are coaches constantly talking, working refs during games.
The fact is refs are in general, underqualified to call most of these games and a 3rd foul called at the start of a 2nd half of a game, on a player CAN impact the remainder of the half. To say a game and refs are only impacting games in the final 2 or 3 minutes is 100% false.
Let me place the question this way....if Eugene gets one bad call against him vs Murphy in the 1st 4 minutes, how many charge attempts can he potentially take with an early foul, vs not having one??
Do we really want to believe that the team that gets to the 7th team foul, doesn't impact a game??
Both would be 100% inaccurate, each and every call matters.
There are computer simulations that can tell you a team that gets to the bonus quicker, has a significantly easier time controlling the pace of the game, even if the calls turn out to be even.
It's best to just drop the notion that RU gets a fair whistle, more often than not, RU doesn't....
You do great work and i consider extremely fair and knowledgeable...but if refs didn't have an impact on flow of the game, foul trouble, why are coaches constantly talking, working refs during games.
The fact is refs are in general, underqualified to call most of these games and a 3rd foul called at the start of a 2nd half of a game, on a player CAN impact the remainder of the half. To say a game and refs are only impacting games in the final 2 or 3 minutes is 100% false.
Let me place the question this way....if Eugene gets one bad call against him vs Murphy in the 1st 4 minutes, how many charge attempts can he potentially take with an early foul, vs not having one??
Do we really want to believe that the team that gets to the 7th team foul, doesn't impact a game??
Both would be 100% inaccurate, each and every call matters.
There are computer simulations that can tell you a team that gets to the bonus quicker, has a significantly easier time controlling the pace of the game, even if the calls turn out to be even.
It's best to just drop the notion that RU gets a fair whistle, more often than not, RU doesn't....
Show me a fan base that thinks they get a fair whistle.
90%,I didn’t say 100, of fans complaining about officiating are either unwarranted and/or excuse making. I hate excuses.
Bad call is made people need to move on.
90%,I didn’t say 100, of fans complaining about officiating are either unwarranted and/or excuse making. I hate excuses.
Bad call is made people need to move on.
BTW when a team gets to the bonus quicker almost always it is because they actually foul quicker.
Officiating at this level is VERY difficult. Fans need to cut these guys some slack. The personal attacks I hear are ridiculous.
Officiating at this level is VERY difficult. Fans need to cut these guys some slack. The personal attacks I hear are ridiculous.
Ditto! Amuses me to no end especially when it has been THE crucial factor in several games, especially where our margin for error is so small.
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The board is cool, a great source of information and entertainment.
The game threads are insufferable...this guy sucks, now he’s great, the refs, the criticisms, the negativity. Stopped following as I found it detracted from my focus and overall enjoyment of the game.
Yet 2 people in this thread crying about us crying about the refs.
Kind of weird how they are so defensive or dismissive of how referees calls can influence a game, and how our team in particular gets so little respect by 2 specific referees.
I guess the refs didn’t influence the outcome of the St Johns game, either. We got a fair shake there, huh?
What refs are we talking about?
Name and appearance?
I’ll look out for it. I go under the assumption that refs make mistakes and that is it.
Name and appearance?
I’ll look out for it. I go under the assumption that refs make mistakes and that is it.
From others on this board, 1 looks like Joe Pesci (lol) and the other is named something like Courtney Greene?
Yes - and sometimes it is difficult for the team to do that after a bad call (or two) go against them, just as it's difficult to move on after two mental error turnovers in a row, or two crucial tough shots by an opponent, or whatever. Bad calls are part of the game - and impact the game in a lot of ways. Just like one play can be the turning point in a game (or a cluster of 2-3 plays in a row), so too can one call or cluster of calls. Waiving off a basket inappropriately, or granting two free throws inappropriately, or calling a third foul, or whatever... all have impact on the flow of the game, and not all can be as easily absorbed.
Usually better teams have more room for error, so a few bad calls aren't as impactful - teams that need things to "break the right way" to win get hurt more by a few bad calls in the wrong spots.
Agree - but so is playing at this level, and coaching at this level, and we talk at length about the relative positive/negative performance of the coaches and players after every game. There's really nothing different about saying "Johnson needs to hit more of his FTs" or "Sanders needs to work on going left" or "Omoruyi needs to hit those chippies" and saying "that ref needs to call that moving screen" or "that ref was wrong in waiving that basket" or "that ref was wrong in not calling that travel".
It's all discussing performance from tip to final buzzer - whether it's our own team and coaches, the opponent's team and coaches, or the three officials. And calls for an official's head aren't much different from calls for a player to be benched after a bad stretch - but there's no "officials coach" who can substitute for a referee if he "doesn't have it tonight", so even a ref in a "slump" has to get out there and do his best.
And TV gives the viewer the benefit of multiple angles, infinite replays, slow motion, focusing on different areas/players on each replay, infinite amount of time to make a decision, etc - while refs have to do all of that in one moment, live. So those with the benefit of all that technology have a bit of a leg up - which is why they institute replay for certain situations to get the calls right.
That can give fans more of a warped sense of *how* bad a call was, since it was so "obvious" on replay - but it may not have been obvious in real time from that ref's vantage point. Still, though, even if they're doing their best, that doesn't mean their performance on that night didn't impact the outcome in some way. So, "cut them some slack," yes.... ignore their impact on the game, no.
