RU-Camden Law donation

[RUnTeX]

News & Events | Rutgers University-Camden

news.camden.rutgers.edu

Nice to see for the Camden law school. Hopefully helps attract some strong students who they might be competing for and perhaps would have previously lost out to some of the law schools on the Philly side of the Delaware.

Thoughts @camdenlawprof ?

 

[retired711]

News & Events | Rutgers University-Camden

news.camden.rutgers.edu

Nice to see for the Camden law school. Hopefully helps attract some strong students who they might be competing for and perhaps would have previously lost out to some of the law schools on the Philly side of the Delaware.

Thoughts @camdenlawprof ?

The Camden campus is hammered by lack of scholarship money (which I don't think this is). Temple comes across the river and offers tuition cheaper than Rutgers' to students who do well on the LSAT. As an admissions officer once said to me, "We just can't compete." Rutgers-Camden used to be considered much better than Temple, but those days are gone.

 

[HeavenUniv.]

Sounds like a great way to reward Top students. Do public law schools in other states poach like Temple is doing? For example, does the University of Arizona Law School try to undercut New Mexico?

 

[retired711]

Sounds like a great way to reward Top students. Do public law schools in other states poach like Temple is doing? For example, does the University of Arizona Law School try to undercut New Mexico?

I don't know. Temple started its campaign when it saw that Penn State was getting a law school, and so Temple worried about losing students. Rutgers has consistently refused to give Camden sufficient scholarship funds and, while Camden tries, it has not been able to raise enough funds to counter what Temple is doing.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Sounds like a great way to reward Top students. Do public law schools in other states poach like Temple is doing? For example, does the University of Arizona Law School try to undercut New Mexico?

I can tell you when I applied to law school (over 10 years ago now) Temple and SHU offered me scholarships to make them cheaper than RU-N and C.

It's funny you mention Arizona, they also offered me a fee waiver and maybe some scholarship money. I forget. I ultimately went to the highest ranked school I got into, which most applicants do.

There are rumors that schools put all the scholarship students into one section and, by virtue of the curve, force students off. But I've heard this mostly in regards to certain NYC schools.

I believe then Temple had a B- curve. Not sure if that changed. But I guess the bet is now that Temple is a decent ranking above the other non-UPenn Philly schools just having the degree makes the difference. In NJ while SHU law is ranked higher, things are so parochial I am not sure it makes any difference.

 

[retired711]

I can tell you when I applied to law school (over 10 years ago now) Temple and SHU offered me scholarships to make them cheaper than RU-N and C.

It's funny you mention Arizona, they also offered me a fee waiver and maybe some scholarship money. I forget. I ultimately went to the highest ranked school I got into, which most applicants do.

There are rumors that schools put all the scholarship students into one section and, by virtue of the curve, force students off. But I've heard this mostly in regards to certain NYC schools.

I believe then Temple had a B- curve. Not sure if that changed. But I guess the bet is now that Temple is a decent ranking above the other non-UPenn Philly schools just having the degree makes the difference. In NJ while SHU law is ranked higher, things are so parochial I am not sure it makes any difference.

FWIW, Seton Hall has reportedly been having trouble with its bar passage numbers. Temple did for a while, but then straightened out. I used to see the Pennsy bar questions every year, and anybody who studied should be fine even if they dislike multiple-choice questions like the multi-state.. Remember, it's only a pass/fail exam.

I don't know if the evidence bears out your belief that most applicants go to the highest ranked school. That's where they should go, but I know of a number of exceptions. Then again, the plural of anecdote is not data.

I think Temple has upgraded its curve. It's necessary to do this to help students get jobs. The Rutgers law curve is now pretty lenient, thanks to our friends in Newark.

 

[HeavenUniv.]

I remember ready big a few years ago that enrollment at Seton Hall Law School was so small that they were considering selling their Newark facility.

 

[NotInRHouse]

FWIW, Seton Hall has reportedly been having trouble with its bar passage numbers. Temple did for a while, but then straightened out. I used to see the Pennsy bar questions every year, and anybody who studied should be fine even if they dislike multiple-choice questions like the multi-state.. Remember, it's only a pass/fail exam.

I don't know if the evidence bears out your belief that most applicants go to the highest ranked school. That's where they should go, but I know of a number of exceptions. Then again, the plural of anecdote is not data.

I think Temple has upgraded its curve. It's necessary to do this to help students get jobs. The Rutgers law curve is now pretty lenient, thanks to our friends in Newark.

That's interesting. I know at some point within the last few years the pass rate went down across the board. It's stunning to me especially the NJ exam historically was so easy. Now both NY and NJ (not sure about PA) use the multi state exam which is even easier and you don't have to memorize all the NY SOLs, for example, like I had to.

I should have qualified "within their preferred geographic region, outside the T14" though there are exceptions for sure. Eg, doesn't make much sense to go to Cardozo over Temple if you want to work in Philly. And even within the T14 there's some regionalism...I've heard Cornell grads are not as welcomed on the West Coast, as crazy as that sounds. And then you have some schools outside of the T14 like Tulane and Notre Dame that have less of a regional reputation, or schools like BC or BU that might be welcome only in NYC outside of New England. So it's not sure fire.

Where does RU have the curve today?

 

[retired711]

That's interesting. I know at some point within the last few years the pass rate went down across the board. It's stunning to me especially the NJ exam historically was so easy. Now both NY and NJ (not sure about PA) use the multi state exam which is even easier and you don't have to memorize all the NY SOLs, for example, like I had to.

I should have qualified "within their preferred geographic region, outside the T14" though there are exceptions for sure. Eg, doesn't make much sense to go to Cardozo over Temple if you want to work in Philly. And even within the T14 there's some regionalism...I've heard Cornell grads are not as welcomed on the West Coast, as crazy as that sounds. And then you have some schools outside of the T14 like Tulane and Notre Dame that have less of a regional reputation, or schools like BC or BU that might be welcome only in NYC outside of New England. So it's not sure fire.

Where does RU have the curve today?

The Rutgers law curve for first years is between 2.95 and 3.10; the upper-level curve is between 3.2 and 3.6, which means there effectively is no upper-level curve.

I am not sure what states other than New York have adopted the uniform bar exam. I am almost sure that California, Pennsylvania and New Jersey are not among the states that have.

The most likely reason for the lower pass rate is that law schools these days only rarely kick students out for poor academics, and because grade inflation gives students a false sense of their ability. Take-home exams are a problem, too; students never learn how to take a closed-book exam like the bar exam.

Finally, I agree that a student (outside of students going to the top schools) should think carefully about where he or she might want to practice before picking a law school. He or she should think beyond his or her first job, and ask where he or she would like to settle down.

 

[NotInRHouse]

The Rutgers law curve for first years is between 2.95 and 3.10; the upper-level curve is between 3.2 and 3.6, which means there effectively is no upper-level curve.

I am not sure what states other than New York have adopted the uniform bar exam. I am almost sure that California, Pennsylvania and New Jersey are not among the states that have.

The most likely reason for the lower pass rate is that law schools these days only rarely kick students out for poor academics, and because grade inflation gives students a false sense of their ability. Take-home exams are a problem, too; students never learn how to take a closed-book exam like the bar exam.

Finally, I agree that a student (outside of students going to the top schools) should think carefully about where he or she might want to practice before picking a law school. He or she should think beyond his or her first job, and ask where he or she would like to settle down.

We had a B curve for 1L so that's about right.

NJ did adopt UBE but PA and CA have not.

UBE States | UBE Exam | NCBE

Details, jurisdictions, deadlines, requirements, prep, and registration for the Uniform Bar Examination (UBE).

www.ncbex.org

Kind of surprised TX adopted it. Not surprised CA and FL have not. It makes sense LA has not, but WI is interesting to not have since Marquette and UW grads are automatically admitted. Since PA has not, I wonder how that works with reciprocity as historically they had with NY and a number of other participating states.

Most of my exams were open book and/or take home. I think Property was my only closed book one- and it ended up being one of my best grades.

When I took the NY exam, they told us that most people that failed weren't native English speakers. You had to have your ID out the day of the exam, and I remember going to the bathroom and seeing a lot of non-US passports being used. But in terms of the exam itself, I thought NJ was incredibly easy with any preparation. A quick scan of the questions and I knew the issues off the bat. NY OTOH you had to know the specific laws, for example for Family and Trust & Wills. I knew these were on the exam and figured they'd be cocktail party questions (and I was correct on all counts lol) so I took the classes. But I guess not everyone does. We only had two required classes as upperclassmen, Corps and Professional Responsibility, but still had a good bar pass rate, but that's probably because my classes with loaded were Ivy grads, children of lawyers, and a couple of scrappy public school kids like me.

 

[retired711]

I used to know someone involved with grading the NJ bar; he said anyone who had been to law school for three years should have no trouble passing. Rutgers requires only Professional Responsibility. I myself am against required upper-level courses because (a) the students who don't want to be there spoil it for everyone else; (b) required courses give the faculty teaching them license to be poor teachers; they don't have to worry about competition from other courses because they have a captive audience.

When I taught Property, I always used a closed-book exam; I would tell students that open-book exams are scams because they give students false confidence, while with a closed-book exam they knew they had to study hard. But I did use open-book exams in upper-level courses, because otherwise I wouldn't have had any students!

 

[retired711]

When I took the NY exam, they told us that most people that failed weren't native English speakers. You had to have your ID out the day of the exam, and I remember going to the bathroom and seeing a lot of non-US passports being used.

Rutgers-Camden had a substantial number of students from abroad. They wrote just as well as native-speakers, so I doubt that what you were told was correct. I was never able to guess that a student was from abroad.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Rutgers-Camden had a substantial number of students from abroad. They wrote just as well as native-speakers, so I doubt that what you were told was correct. I was never able to guess that a student was from abroad.

Well, it would explain states like California which I would imagine with NY leads in non-native speakers taking the exam. But it wouldn't explain a state like Delaware that is on the lower side for pass rate. NJ probably is on the lower side for passing, not as low, but like I said I thought it was a very easy exam.

 

[retired711]

Well, it would explain states like California which I would imagine with NY leads in non-native speakers taking the exam. But it wouldn't explain a state like Delaware that is on the lower side for pass rate. NJ probably is on the lower side for passing, not as low, but like I said I thought it was a very easy exam.

What makes California different is not non-native speakers, but the fact that one need not be a member of an ABA-accredited law school to take the bar. Instead, graduates, say, of the Thomas Jefferson law school in San Diego may sit for the bar. The pass rate for those grads is very low.

 

[NotInRHouse]

What makes California different is not non-native speakers, but the fact that one need not be a member of an ABA-accredited law school to take the bar. Instead, graduates, say, of the Thomas Jefferson law school in San Diego may sit for the bar. The pass rate for those grads is very low.

This is a fantastic point.

Didn't that law school close? I feel like a bunch of lower tier schools got closed down in the wake of the last recession. Don't expect that this time though given some areas of the law have been unaffected or even benefited from current events.

I do think though there really should be some kind of realignment. In my view it makes the most sense for there really to only be 100 law schools or so, but we need to ensure that poor and rural areas don't go underserviced and right now they do.

 

[retired711]

TJ is but one example of the many schools in CA that are not ABA-accredited. There are enough people who believe that these law schools will help them become lawyers to keep them in business.

 

[RUnTeX]

Not in CA but is Thomas Cooley one of those non-accredited law schools? Apparently there was a location in Lansing, MI affiliated with Western Michigan Univ that has now been disconnected and another location in Tampa, FL? They apparently charge an arm & a leg but they must be getting some folks to attend and pay exorbitant sums (or go heavily into debt) with just short of an open enrollment admissions.

 

[retired711]

Not in CA but is Thomas Cooley one of those non-accredited law schools? Apparently there was a location in Lansing, MI affiliated with Western Michigan Univ that has now been disconnected and another location in Tampa, FL? They apparently charge an arm & a leg but they must be getting some folks to attend and pay exorbitant sums (or go heavily into debt) with just short of an open enrollment admissions.

Thomas Cooley is an ABA-accredited law school with multiple locations. AFAIK, graduates of non-ABA law schools can take the bar only in California.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Not in CA but is Thomas Cooley one of those non-accredited law schools? Apparently there was a location in Lansing, MI affiliated with Western Michigan Univ that has now been disconnected and another location in Tampa, FL? They apparently charge an arm & a leg but they must be getting some folks to attend and pay exorbitant sums (or go heavily into debt) with just short of an open enrollment admissions.

Cooley is ABA but is the butt of all jokes on law school message boards because it's one of the easiest to get into and they put out a ranking saying they're one of the best in the world.

Look them up and see some of what they've gotten into and some alums over the years...yikes

 

[NotInRHouse]

TJ is but one example of the many schools in CA that are not ABA-accredited. There are enough people who believe that these law schools will help them become lawyers to keep them in business.

Thomas Jefferson School of Law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So apparently they had ABA accreditation but lost it in 2019...their CA bar pass rate is 22%. That's awful. I can't believe people are paying good money for that.

 

[RUnTeX]

Look them up and see some of what they've gotten into and some alums over the years...yikes

I believe Michael Cohen of DJT-associated fame is an alum.

Eta: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.po...michael-cohen-lawyer-cooley-law-school-218318

 

[NotInRHouse]

I believe Michael Cohen of DJT-associated fame is an alum.

Eta: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.po...michael-cohen-lawyer-cooley-law-school-218318

Yep...I believe the dean at the time was also very involved in the 2016 election.

Drives me crazy that schools play games like this and get away with it.