RU vs Illinois Game Thread
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Wasted scholarships are the main reason Rutgers remains a bottom tier sports program in football and mens basketball.As fans have sadly watched recruiting is far more important than coaching in a power conference.The malaise continues because the league competition is too strong .Player development has more meaning in lower level conferences.
The lack of talent was masked against a very easy out of conference schedule where all the games were played at the RAC.League competition has shown the inability to shoot/score puts Rutgers at a decided disadvantage in games which then impacts how the team plays on defense /rebounding.Nobody knows what is happening during practice sessions .As fans we can only judge based on what is happening during games and its not a pretty picture to watch.The pressure to win games clearly has impacted the team because the execution on the court of basic fundamentals is missing.
Sanders is clearly frustrated and as the most talented player his performance drives the team for a positive or negative direction.Previously, I wanted him to return next season to provide leadership and scoring in the backcourt.Times have changed and its now probably better for Sanders and Rutgers to move on without him on the team next season.
Recruiting higher level talent while still having losing seasons remains a unsolved catch 22 dilemma .It comes back to recruiting project type players because for the most part they are the only ones Rutgers can attract which would be fine as a member of the MAC but not the B1G.
The lack of talent was masked against a very easy out of conference schedule where all the games were played at the RAC.League competition has shown the inability to shoot/score puts Rutgers at a decided disadvantage in games which then impacts how the team plays on defense /rebounding.Nobody knows what is happening during practice sessions .As fans we can only judge based on what is happening during games and its not a pretty picture to watch.The pressure to win games clearly has impacted the team because the execution on the court of basic fundamentals is missing.
Sanders is clearly frustrated and as the most talented player his performance drives the team for a positive or negative direction.Previously, I wanted him to return next season to provide leadership and scoring in the backcourt.Times have changed and its now probably better for Sanders and Rutgers to move on without him on the team next season.
Recruiting higher level talent while still having losing seasons remains a unsolved catch 22 dilemma .It comes back to recruiting project type players because for the most part they are the only ones Rutgers can attract which would be fine as a member of the MAC but not the B1G.
We were already down by 20 when Eugene got hurt. Hope he's ok, at least he gives a good effort most of the time and could definitely be a solid player going forward.
Have to agree here. Too many reaches, too much sifting for diamonds in the rough, etc. Need to be able to win recruiting battles and bring in competitive players.
We look better next year in basketball, but it's really just bringing us up to floor level from the basement in terms of talent. Need to have even better players in 2019, and still better in 2020, if we're going to move up in the conference standings.
It’s noy that Issa is inbounding.
Maybe someone else should.
But I rewatched several of the inbounds “plays”, and no one is moving to get open, particularly Corey.
WTF was he doing?
Just stands there at the wing with his arm pointing toward mid court.
Someone was setting a screen for him (Freeman?), and Corey didn’t even try to use it.
He has checked out
Embarrassing
Coaching is not the issue here.
The team that beat SHU had Mike Williams playing 20 min, and 0 minutes from Mensah/Bullock/Dadika.
Losing Mike has been a big blow to this team. It's lost scoring, offensive rebounding, defense - but also rest for Sanders/Baker/Thiam, and intangibles like court leadership, heart, etc.
The team has lost its offensive flow - but that's in part because we're getting a lot more minutes from guys who aren't meant to be in the 8-9 man rotation, and our scoring options are more limited.
Losing Eugene is another blow. That's 21 min from one of our best defenders/rebounders, and another "intangibles" guy.
The only knock on coaching I can see is roster management. Mensah and Bullock were misses, and are weak links from Pike's first two recruiting classes. Coupled with redshirts for Kiss/Johnson, it left us with really 9 schollie players that we could lean on. When everyone was healthy, it was a risk... now that they've been pressed into action it's become an issue.
From a player development perspective and X's and O's perspective, still don't have any complaints about Pike and staff. Recruiting needs to pick up, though. Next year is going to be crucial.
did you give EJ that much credit when he had to deal with injuries? Team played well w/o MW against Neb. Guys are just tentative out there and not sure what they should be doing. We run our set for 20+ secs and get no where and some has to force a shot. That's what I'm seeing. The X's and O's are terrible. Opponents know exactly what we are trying to do and shutting us down.
I didn't give EJ that much credit before the injuries, so it's not like the injuries changed my opinion of him.
He had an upperclassman-heavy class in his 2nd year without injury issues, and we still won just 10 games and were: 336th in pts/g, 332nd in FG%, 292nd in assists, 256th in steals, 213th in turnovers, 187th in points against/g, and 166th in rebounding.
Team played well against Nebraska? I don't know if scoring 54 points is playing well. It's the fewest points Nebraska has allowed on the road all year.
With Mike in the lineup, we scored 61.2 ppg in conference (against teams with an avg kenpom of 38 - which is using Minnesota's current kenpom, and we played them before they lost Lynch)... without him, we've scored 55.0 (against an average kenpom of 57). He had been averaging 7.2 ppg in conference games... and we lost 6.2 of those points over his 20 min.
Take out the one shining Iowa game where we suddenly got hot from range, and we've been averaging just 50.0 ppg without Mike in the lineup.
I know you were dogging on Pike last year, too - just have an ax to grind, I guess.
Don't know if it's coaching strategy or game plan, but it seems like we're always trying to push the ball up court after a rebound unless the defense applies a little pressure. We commit so many needless TOs on long passes to people who can't make moves when we have the numbers. Bypassing the defense in a non press situation only helps if you can do something to score or draw a foul. Just bring the ball up normally and run the offense. Everything looks worse when you can't make baskets and give the ball away.
Yes, I have an ax to grind. It’s called losing. You view that Pike is over achieving with the current squad by pulling off a few upsets but we are really 30 pts back of the worst team. I view that the team is good enough to not finish last .......again.
I’m not here to defend EJ. I’m just sick of alll the excuses everyone makes for Pike. Your arugument that EJ’s recruit is so important that we lose by 30 to the worst team w/o him says a lot about Pike’s recruiting.
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This current team as it's constituted now (without Williams and Omoruyi) is about the least talented offensive team I have seen at RU. Are you telling me it's a coaching issue??? when he has to play.... I'm not gonna say the names no need to bash some players who are giving good effort.
You defended EJ plenty while he was losing, so don't give me that bull. You don't like Pike, and that's fine. That's your prerogative.
The Rice scandal rocked this program, and EJ basically committed theft for three years by cashing his paycheck.
And you're hanging on a 30 point road loss during which the team watched a teammate writhing on the floor in pain with his kneecap out of place? Were you bitching about Schiano losing the team after Legrand got hurt in 2010, too?
"All the excuses everyone makes for Pike" - as I said last year, if you can't see the progress that the program has been making, I don't know what to tell you. Your hate for this staff clouds your vision.
We were losing by 20 before Omoruyi got hurt. It’s a coaching issue because we play up or down to competition. Who recruited those players that can’t fill in? Not sure why you guys are so willing to give him a pass.
I 100% defended EJ while he was losing (injuries). I’m not defending him now. Now I’m just pointing out the irony that so many are pointing to 1 injury as the reason why we are losing. Again, we were losing by 20 pts before the injury. But it’s a convenient excuse. I hope you are right and I am wrong. Because we are stuck with him for a while.
We were losing by 15 points when the Omoruyi injury injury happened, fwiw. Illinois had just gone on a 17-5 run to push it to 32-17, and the injury happened on the ensuing possession. That was also after Sa went out with injury earlier in the first half when he was raked through his eye. For the rest of that game, we were down both Omoruyi and Sa, and Freeman and Doucoure were already in foul trouble (3 and 2 fouls respectively when Omoruyi went down with just over 4 min left in the 1st half). The psyche hit of the injury combined with the lack of bodies allowed a 10-20 pt loss to spiral to a 31 pt loss.
Worst loss of the Pikiell era has been 31 points, late in his 2nd year after injuries mounted (lost 2 players in that game). By the end of his 2nd season of healthy players, EJ had 4 losses worse than that.... the injury-depleted 3rd season saw 6 more (including two losses by 50+).
If you "defended EJ while he was losing (injuries)" then you were also defending him after he had been losing for two straight seasons without injuries. He had compiled more losses in his first two years than any RU coach in history. The ship had already sailed on EJ before that season started - he needed to really show improvement that year to save his job, and that didn't happen. No real confidence it would have happened with a healthy roster, either, tbh.
And by what logic could you defend EJ while he was losing due to injuries, but not Pikiell? It's not about not liking losing, it's about not liking Pike.
If we lose to Purdue on Saturday by 40+, I'm sure you'll be popping champagne.
I actually gave Pike a pass for the 31 pt loss to Purdue. I don’t judge him on games he has no chance on winning. I just don’t give him a pass on getting blown out by the last place team, losing to Hartford and Stony Brook. Yes, I’m not a Pike fan. He has to win me over with better coaching.
So what got you to defend EJ, as he did absolutely zero "better coaching" through three years? Was it all benefit of the doubt because of his playing time here? Are you just more jaded now because you defended EJ and he turned out to be a dud?
I have no idea if Pike will ultimately be successful here. So far, I've seen positive signs and think he's on the right track - but that right track still needs improved recruiting year over year for the next 2-3 years or so.
I'm not jaded at all. I only defended EJ in his last year saying you can't judge him based on that last year because of injuries. I get that it's difficult to defend Pike so the narrative has to be that I'm a EJ guy. Progress has to mean that we get out of last place in the B1G. Getting blown out by the previous last place team is like three steps back.
No, you and I went a few rounds about EJ in his last year, and about Pike last year. There was no defense at that point, because there were already two dismal years in the books (his 2nd with mostly upperclassmen).
Why defend EJ and not Pike?
You were critical of Pike when we were 11-1 twelve games into last year, so it's not about "losses", despite your protestations to the contrary.
EJ had 7 scholarship players in his last year. I didn’t say EJ was good. I just said you can’t judge him with 7 scholarship players. I can’t find a real excuse for Pike.
Of course I bitched about Pike last year. We finished last in the B1G. I was right that the 11-1 record was BS. We sucked against real competition. Do you think we can win 1 more game?
You were bitching at 11-1, so your argument that "yes, I have an ax to grind. it's called losing" is BS. You didn't like him when he was winning, either. He'd lost one game in his entire Rutgers tenure, and you were already griping.
I'm pretty sure Pike could walk on water, and you'd say that he can't swim.
He was 4-17 the rest of the way. We beat no one to get to 11-1. Actually, we did beat Hartford and Stony Brook that year. Guess it’s another sign we are going backwards. Like I said before, I hope you are right and I am wrong. Let’s see how we finish this year and next year.
No, I just understand basketball. We won because we overpowered our opponents. Our O was terrible. I knew when we go up against real competition, that crap is not going to fly.
Uh huh. You understand basketball so well that EJ still got the benefit of the doubt in Year 3.
It’s not benefit of the doubt. I didn’t say he was doing a good job. I said you can’t judge him based on that 3rd year. I’ll still pull for the team and would be very happy to be wrong. Let's see if we can close out the year with one more win.
I'm perfectly happy judging him on the first two years, so that the third year was really moot. There wasn't even anything to argue there - "don't judge him this year because of injuries"... well, he was already judged to be terrible and fighting for his job in the third year, injuries or no. The question was more whether we could afford to fire him than whether he'd be able to turn it around.
Yet now, with injuries piling up for Pike with a similar short bench situation, it's okay to judge him?
I knock both coaches for roster management issues that left them much more exposed to injuries. EJ did his in year 3, and Pike in year 2. EJ did his by having two misses (Goode - G, Diallo - C), a 3 for 2 transfer guard (Johnson), and an empty roster slot (in his "make it or break it" year); Pike did his by having two misses (Mensah - G, Bullock - SF), a 4 for 3 transfer guard (Kiss), and a RS freshman (Johnson).
Both coaches got hit with injuries. EJ lost Freeman/Doorson/Diallo for significant time (#'s 4/9/10 in the rotation). Pike lost Williams/Omoruyi (#s 5/6).
Just from a roster perspective, I think Pike is slightly better off (Kiss as a 4 for 3 vs. Johnson as a 3 for 2; Johnson as a RS Fr vs. an open schollie)... and it being in his 2nd year, rather than his 3rd. From an injury perspective, they were arguably equal (Losing two key contributors vs. losing one key contributor and all center depth).
From a player development and game planning perspective, though, Pike's staff is well ahead of where EJ's was.
If you think 2015/2016 injuries is equal to now, I rest my case. Who really developed under Pike? Sanders can still only go right. Thiam can't get open and shoot threes. Freeman still plays lazy old man D.
Omoruyi has shown a ton of progress YoY, as has Thiam. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you. Look at where they were last year to this year.
Sanders' defense improved a LOT from his freshman year, as has his rebounding and turnover rate. Sa has also improved. Mensah has even improved from being completely hapless to just outclassed.
Freeman is probably the one player who hasn't really shown much improvement, though Pike didn't get him until he already had 3 years of bad habits.
Next year, we'll see if Baker/Doucoure can take the same large steps forward that Omoruyi/Thiam did from their freshman to sophomore years, and if Omoruyi/Thiam can continue to progress as juniors.
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