the Beginning of the End
- Thread starter RizwranIII
- Start date
Then the failure of the number 1 recruiting class losing Dixon and Pope.That's when the downward trend started.With twitter,facebook, and other social media these girls put out why not to play for RU.
I think you are mixing some correct analysis - the failure of that class is a point where the program began to have difficulty recruiting - with the reasoning.
Dixon was not Rutgers WBB material, in that, as CVS put it, she wanted to be California Cool and Rutgers wants "blue collar workers". She had success in a completely different system, which fit her better. Pope was never a major star, enjoying some success for one year - her last - in a system that surrounded her with much greater talents.
Regardless of how it transpired, the class as a whole was ill-fitted to the RU system - the Imus situation and the final 4 got us players, some of which on hind-sight we might not have gone hard after.
To the extent the situation contributed to a decline in recruiting, that's what happens when you become "yesterday's news", and lack any real exciting reasons to attract recruits. RU facilities - nah. Make at least the sweet 16 and be ranked every year, not so much lately. Vivian yes, but she has become less relevant due to time passing. The same thing that happened to Andy Landers, Jody Conradt, and others. Their fame as pioneers was much more vibrant for players and their parents some years back. Now, the players grandparents might indeed be the ones who best know these coaches as role models.
And I stress that none of this is a criticism. Nor a call for immediate change. It is, however, the heart of the issue. Sure, with social media, players know what they are getting into, but do you really think that Scaife, Copper, etc, etc are warning folks away and saying they are miserable on social media??
I am not saying they are but you have to wonder why we have no recruits for next year in the top 100.Girls want to have fun playing offense and you are not going to get that here
The girls are scared to shoot .because they do not want to be yanked.How many chipped do were miss. That is all mental.
The girls are scared to shoot .because they do not want to be yanked.How many chipped do were miss. That is all mental.
Glad you cleared up you're not saying the players are telling recruits to stay away on social media sites, it looked like you were implying that .
Can't say it is still happening, but CVS always seemed close to her players and they had a great relationship with her .
So reading the possibility of current players warning recruits away was very confusing for me to understand and I'm glad you said you aren't claiming the RU WBB players are sorry they came to RU.
Wonder why recruits are looking elsewhere, take a good look at the facilities and the support the team gets , then add on Stringer's name isn't as big as it once was .
Plus Rutgers image might not be as positive a recruiting tool because of what has happened in other sports .
The last, in my opinion, is something that probably doesn't hurt WBB much, but added to the other reasons could have an effect more than if it was the only negative.
I think you are missing the fact that we have not been relevant in BB on either side lately. You cannot dismiss the fact that this senior laden team with all the talent it has did underachieve for this season. Its not the first time and its only an opinion but when we watch this team do the obvious mistakes does this not boil your pot? Then she makes a comment that she is shorthanded, but in the game against Nebraska with a 14 point lead puts 3 freshmen on the floor at the same time and when they fumble away the lead she didn't pull them before that. Can you dispute that she has not had an offense really ever, and when the defense stumbles they have no answers on O. Also there is no defending of the other teams 3 point shooters pretty much at all as witnessed with the 43 point performance by the shooter for Ohio State. They had no answer for her defensively. Look the Mens bball program is a disaster no doubt, but the this is the only reason people can hold on to the way the girls have performed. They have lost games that they shouldn't have and really have not been a real threat for years. Other than last years team that had Essy really bringing that energy and great defense they have not been a team that is consistent at winning lately. Everyone knows its because of CVIV that this team has not been better and her reluctance to change. But I will still scream loud for the girls and the men no matter what, it just might be time to change the culture IMHO.
Don't like what you posted , but it's very respectful and makes good points.
The reason I don't like it is because I hope CVS can turn the program back to the way it once was and your reasoning points in a different direction that I don't know how to refute .
Men's basketball can't be used as a standard when talking about the WBB program , in my opinion. The only thing it should be used for is to point out fixing WBB must be done carefully ( which wasn't done for MBB )and not on the cheap ( which was the way MBB was fixed).
I'm not totally against Hobbs making changes, but against any change just for change and done on the cheap.
How can Vivian turn the program around???!!!! By getting better players and mold them into an efficious TEAM??!! For those who think this can be done (again)....where have you been living since Piph left?! (Perhaps where our astronaut Kelley has been living...detached from earth).
Efficacious. Sorry my blood boils at some comments and my old fingers do not move well. Old timer.
There is always hope, especially when a HC had proved to be a great one.
The hope is for her to recapture the greatness she once had and apply it to the type of game being played today.
What makes my blood boil at my advanced AARP age is someone who acts like age kills competitiveness and older coaches need to be dumped in the trash.
CVS might not be able to overcome obstacles to the RU WBB program like she did before, but there's nothing wrong with hoping she can and understanding it might be time for her to help the RU WBB program in a new capacity: Like Coach Emeritus.
I too boil at the concept that age (per se) kills the ability to coach, etc. It does affect the ability to recruit at the highest levels, because even the simplest analysis would indicate it is sort of like when a younger coach is in the last year(s) of their contract.
Watching CVS on the sideline leads me to believe that there is a gap between what she sees and what the players on the court see. In Viv's offense, players are asked to read what the defense is doing, find and execute the best shot within the basic "set" called on the sideline or by the point guard. By her hand gestures, and sometimes interviews as she comes off the court, it seems to me that she doesn't think the players take the shots that she thinks would be best. This has always been a puzzle, similar to when point guards of the past slowly dribbled up the court while Viv made speed it up gestures. Never understood.
At Rutgers in particular, there is an especially long "loyalty" to coaches. Flood: loyalists to the end (blind, bizarre loyalty). Jordan: loyalists who think that 1.5 halves of good ball in year 3 will jump start the program.Stringer: several years post Piph of declining quality. If Rutgers were in the Midwest or Southeast, attitudes of most fans would be very different. It is about winning and losing in college sports there. It is less passionate here...college athletics at Rutgers are "entertainment" for 90 per cent of fans at RU. Just like a Broadway show or the Metropolitan Opera.
I have my own theory of a factor that has negatively affected the style that CVS has been successful with: new rules. We always counted on tough defense, on-ball perimeter defense that created steals, easy layups, and turnovers. The "55" would put fear into opposing players' eyes. Yes, we committed more fouls than other teams but this style was successful for us until a few years ago when it became a foul to touch a player more than once. Suddenly teams are able to break our press, slash towards the basket in the half court, and set picks for the three point shooters.
We have a team full of athletic players who can move quickly and fit into the 55 of old. While we still remain a very good team defensively compared to our peers, perhaps there are different approaches we can take to accommodate these newer rules. I see that Ohio State played a very successful press against us, as well as some great perimeter trapping. I can recall the first several games under the new rules, where we would hear whistle after whistle after whistle in the backcourt.
I don't know what extent the above observations hold water, but I recall in the past we would have forced numerous ten second violations per game. I would hope that future teams can be taught contemporary approaches to defense, or else recruit and coach using shooting and offense as higher priorities.
We have a team full of athletic players who can move quickly and fit into the 55 of old. While we still remain a very good team defensively compared to our peers, perhaps there are different approaches we can take to accommodate these newer rules. I see that Ohio State played a very successful press against us, as well as some great perimeter trapping. I can recall the first several games under the new rules, where we would hear whistle after whistle after whistle in the backcourt.
I don't know what extent the above observations hold water, but I recall in the past we would have forced numerous ten second violations per game. I would hope that future teams can be taught contemporary approaches to defense, or else recruit and coach using shooting and offense as higher priorities.
Next year there will be very few HS all americans on the team. Tyler is the only one I can think of. Then a few top 100 kids- Shrita, KK, Harris, the younger Jeune. I don't imagine anything better than maybe 3 conference wins. (I know that sounds terrible, but compare rosters.) A WNIT bid would be a major success. With any luck, Bre will make a full recovery and turn out to be a good fit. Only 3 post players, all young. A small ball team. That 1000th win is far away. Hoping for a recruiting surprise or two, and no injuries. On the other hand, having no expectations, maybe some fans will enjoy the ride more.
I agree with your comment about Rutgers athletics being more entertainment focused than on winning.Tailgating means a lot for fans at football games moreso than getting in the stadium before the game starts.For all the years I have been a season ticket holder for football and mens basketball I rarely saw a sense of urgency to be a top tier program .The lack of funding was recognized but little was done to change the status quo.
The womens team under Grentz and Stringer were the exceptions to the rule because of their recruiting .Banners are hanging in the RAC because of their excellence.Time and limited school support ,however,impacted their success causing Grentz to leave for Illinois and Stringer is now facing concerns regarding her future tenure.
When the program doesn't get the support needed to stay on top, on the way down the HC is usually the one blamed and especially if that coach's name isn't the draw it used to be and stopped overcoming that lack of support.
Time for a change, probably, turning on the HC who made sure RU stayed a winning program is sad to see.
I have no doubt change might be needed, but a HOF HC deserves better that what she is being given by some of the WBB fanbase ( on this board) when they place all the blame for the program not being what it once was squarely on her shoulders and not acknowledging the other factors that helped the downward trajectory the program has taken these last few years and realize it might have been her coaching that kept the WBB program from a complete meltdown because of the lack of support it gets from RU.
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
During her last great recruiting run (Canty, Laney, Copper, Hollivay, Scaife) she promised the players she would run a more fast-paced offense. That turned out to be an utter lie. She is just too resistant to change, and what happens to things that don't change in competitive arenas like college basketball? They go extinct.
Revisionist history JMM. Grentz did not "leave for Illinois." Her contract was not renewed by Fred Gruninger.
How could you say the offense isn't fast-paced?? We run fast-breaks all the time! As soon as we get the rebound we start running down the sidelines.
Teresa was unhappy with her contract and expected to be treated better , that's why he didn't renew it.
It was more like they both agreed her time at Rutgers was at an end and the not renewing was the same as here resigning because Fred knew he wasn't going to keep her and she was going to resign if she didn't receive the money she wanted.
Gruninger undervalued her contributions to the WBB program she built and Fred wasn't going to pay what she wanted, so Grentz moved on and took the Illinois job
Sometimes things are not as simple as some try to make it look like.
Edit : oops ( sorry RUJMMM) seems like I was wrong in agreeing that Theresa's contract wasn't renewed, but will still say she went to Illinois because she felt GrunInger didn't value her contributions to the WBB program and that's why she left
COLLEGE BASKETBALL - Rutgers Pays Top Dollar for New Coach - NYTimes.com
>Stringer replaces Theresa Grentz, who resigned in May after 19 seasons to take the head coaching job at Illinois.<
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/07/15/s...ll-rutgers-pays-top-dollar-for-new-coach.html
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Everyone was always talking about Coach Flood only getting one Top 10 player from New Jersey in the last few years. How many Top 10 New Jersey players has Coach Stringer brought in the last four or five years ?
UConn recently hoisted a banner in honor of Chris Daley. She's not coming here. How about a young, fresh face, like the Princeton HC?
As previously noted, the Seton Hall coach is an alum of Seton Hall. Doubt he is going anywhere, I expect he will have a long tenure there.
As noted in other threads, yes, the Princeton coach is one that does deserve a look when the time comes. As noted there, her prime negative is recruiting, and perhaps recruiting P5 level players that want to play her style.
Interesting question, although maybe top 10 isn't the right number. (There haven't been 10 NJ girls in the HoopGurlz top 100 in the last several years, and it would be unusual if there were.) The number of players from in-state varies a lot from school to school. Maryland has 3 right now, Ohio State has 7, UConn has 1 (who's a scrub), Tennessee has 3.
That said, Jeune (the younger one) certainly would have been in the top 10 in New Jersey under most circumstances. I don't know about anybody else.
It's certainly true that CVS has fewer New Jersey - and New York - players than she used to, though. Think about the 2007 team, with three New Jersey players and two from New York City, all starters.
Wow. You definitely have Rosey CVS Glasses on. I was a ticket holding for many years a couple of rows from CVS. She has been a mediocre game time coach for years. Also totally under developed a bountiful amount of super talented players, very few who ever seemed to reach their potential.
Over the years, you get to know a lot of people from your area of the stands. People didn't easily give up the super seats we had. The 2 main reasons for leaving were the price of tickets and CVS's coaching. I would estimate 90% of the fans we got to know and discussed RU games in depth, became more and more tired of CVS's coaching years ago. And the reasons forthis mutual growing discontent were similar.
And don't throw her record at me. Almost any coach would kill for her record. But again, given the talent she had (And I give her 100 credit for that. Until recently, I always called her a recruiting guru), even Eddie Jordan could achieve as good a record.
In way of the fans' opinion, just look at the attendance of home games. It never was very good and has gone down to a ridiculous level.
Right on with the mental issue. I remember April Sykes (probably misspelled it) came in as the super outside and 3 point shooter. I remember also telling my wife early on that I could tell she was a nervous player. I remember that she never looked comfortable w her shot and it got really bad her senior season. An air ball was not uncommon. I also told my wife that I put the main blame on CVS. A coach doesn't need to be a softee, but her players definitely played looking behind their backs....(at CVS)....waiting for the quick hook. And that constant scowl on her face wasn't very reassuring.
I remember someone quoting SHE was getting lax and spending too much time on the golf course as her recruiting withered..
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