Update on Baker and Souf Mensah
- Thread starter higgins3
- Start date
I also cannot say definitively that there isn't a planet in the universe made out of green cheese.
Pikiell went out to Iowa to get this kid himself. Granted, he doesn't shoot much and I don't love having a player on the floor who can just distribute but think about a great distributor and ball handler with Corey on the floor with him. Corey is really just not a point guard. He's an amazing player but I would rather have him cutting to the hoop and looking to get open more than taking the ball up the court and making great passes.
2018 is the year for an extreme upgrade in shooters and I hope Corey is here for that year although I suspect he may not be here for his fourth season. I don't think players like Sa and Laurent give us enough offense but Laurent is good on defense. I'm excited to see what Geo brings to the table and I expect Nigel and mike to have great senior years. I don't think Bullock or Diallo come back next year so there should be room for a few more scholarships. I would love a Sharp shooting juco and grad transfer to come in and then stock up for 2018 and beyond.
Mensah is just a role player and may or may not pan out. Who knows?
2018 is the year for an extreme upgrade in shooters and I hope Corey is here for that year although I suspect he may not be here for his fourth season. I don't think players like Sa and Laurent give us enough offense but Laurent is good on defense. I'm excited to see what Geo brings to the table and I expect Nigel and mike to have great senior years. I don't think Bullock or Diallo come back next year so there should be room for a few more scholarships. I would love a Sharp shooting juco and grad transfer to come in and then stock up for 2018 and beyond.
Mensah is just a role player and may or may not pan out. Who knows?
People who are saying our team will not be that much better next year, 3-5 wins more is better.
Baker will get 10-13 minutes in the OOC games.
Mensah is a backup at best. People who are thinking he is an elite passer though, the stats do not prove it. Then again, you have to have shooters to get your assist numbers up.
I think he is a fantastic kid from what I have read and watched. I just do not know if he is big ten ready, even at a backup level.
Who does he pass to?Well, kids that are working to get their shot up to par over the offseason. Johnson in the past two games, Sanders knows what he needs to do to get to the next level. Develop his left, hit his 3 pt shots at a great clip. All of these kids will be in the gym getting better...why?Because our staff demands it.
Baker will get 10-13 minutes in the OOC games.
Mensah is a backup at best. People who are thinking he is an elite passer though, the stats do not prove it. Then again, you have to have shooters to get your assist numbers up.
I think he is a fantastic kid from what I have read and watched. I just do not know if he is big ten ready, even at a backup level.
Who does he pass to?Well, kids that are working to get their shot up to par over the offseason. Johnson in the past two games, Sanders knows what he needs to do to get to the next level. Develop his left, hit his 3 pt shots at a great clip. All of these kids will be in the gym getting better...why?Because our staff demands it.
Has many on this board lost its collective mind
This seasons "success" has hinged on the ridiculous good fortune of playing a 31 game regular season with 3 scholarship guards ...if one of those guys gets hurt on day one and out of the year you can take this years 13-16 and make that 10-19 or worse. Would be the same thing as last year except with the backcourt and not the front court
You are supposed to have five guards on a 13 ship roster
We needed to get two guards. Unfortunately ...we missed in Alverez
And ...if sanders goes pro in any form after next year ...do you want to enter Piekell third season with only one guard returning in baker as a soph?
People need to chill. After gettty graduation We still have 8 guys returning up front. Are you trying to tell me that everyone will be returning? History says one or two of them will not be there ...there isn't enough playing time for all 8....and Piekell will replace with a spring signees in some form....
Look at the big picture guys
This seasons "success" has hinged on the ridiculous good fortune of playing a 31 game regular season with 3 scholarship guards ...if one of those guys gets hurt on day one and out of the year you can take this years 13-16 and make that 10-19 or worse. Would be the same thing as last year except with the backcourt and not the front court
You are supposed to have five guards on a 13 ship roster
We needed to get two guards. Unfortunately ...we missed in Alverez
And ...if sanders goes pro in any form after next year ...do you want to enter Piekell third season with only one guard returning in baker as a soph?
People need to chill. After gettty graduation We still have 8 guys returning up front. Are you trying to tell me that everyone will be returning? History says one or two of them will not be there ...there isn't enough playing time for all 8....and Piekell will replace with a spring signees in some form....
Look at the big picture guys
Who is saying we don't need another guard? I didn't think it was to much to ask that we get a solid recruit.
It is hard to compare two completely different players. Souf is physically ready to play big ten basketball. Jax has not shown much in a poor league, even if he is a freshman.
I probably roll with Levitch based on upside.
Just curious, how far behind the 8-ball was Pikiell in recruiting the 2017 class because he was a new hire? Next year is the last year the nucleus of Freeman, Williams, and Sanders are together. I'm still not convinced we have any immediately impactful freshman coming in. However, Eugene got a lot of run. Baker could get some run too, but he has to get buckets.
Say we do increase our FT production by 10%. This year, increased FT production may have netted us 4-6 wins. Does the loss of CJ even that out where we're back to even par? Shaq (and Diallo, and Sa) is going to have to work his butt off and have improved production to step right in for CJ.
Next year does have potential to be something special but is really unknown. I can't wait for next season already. Can we just bypass football?
Say we do increase our FT production by 10%. This year, increased FT production may have netted us 4-6 wins. Does the loss of CJ even that out where we're back to even par? Shaq (and Diallo, and Sa) is going to have to work his butt off and have improved production to step right in for CJ.
Next year does have potential to be something special but is really unknown. I can't wait for next season already. Can we just bypass football?
Great points, soundcrib. One thing about CJ is that he was decent at freethrows.
At where Pike was, it is not surprising no impact freshman will be coming in.But, Baker can shoot, and like you mentioned, he will get a run. Pikiell does not play favorites, and no one is allowed to get complacent.
He was fighting what the perception of RU basketball was, which was horrible. That was a big mountain. I actually really like Baker. When you watch him shoot, you will notice two things- His eyes are always on the hoop, his release is high. I expect him to contribute next year. As a freshman, look for 5 points and 2 assist per game. He has higher level shooting skills. Our past touted shooters in the past were great set shooters. That is not incredibly hard. Baker is good off the dribble.
His numbers could be higher, but the guard depth is reasonably high next year. Still, he will get his run.
This year was about improving defense and effort. CHECK
Next year is about improving offense. There will be no way for us to know, but the most important month next year may be March 10th 2017 thru April 10th 2017.
Can't afford to take a month off. Every player on this team has things to improve offensively and every player has to improve S&C. If the team is dedicated and improves and a few new pieces are added that add value we can flip 5 or 6 games from last year.
Having said all that only so much can be done. If the players aren't willing it isn't going to happen and there isn't much that the coach can do. From a player's standpoint there is a lot more to this world than basketball so we will see.
Next year is about improving offense. There will be no way for us to know, but the most important month next year may be March 10th 2017 thru April 10th 2017.
Can't afford to take a month off. Every player on this team has things to improve offensively and every player has to improve S&C. If the team is dedicated and improves and a few new pieces are added that add value we can flip 5 or 6 games from last year.
Having said all that only so much can be done. If the players aren't willing it isn't going to happen and there isn't much that the coach can do. From a player's standpoint there is a lot more to this world than basketball so we will see.
The most important date is November 15, 2017 - the end of the early signing period. That is the date that we will have a feel about whether this program is going to really turn around or not. The next 8 months mean everything.
Luckily, Baker has his s&c program right now, and is supposed to be working on it.
Seriously?
Last year we lost three (3) games by 35 or more points and another six (6) games by 25 or more points. That's nine losses by 25 or more. You can't really wonder why this coach couldnt get this team to six+ conference wins in year 1, can you?
As an aside we lost one (1) game this season by 25 or more points.
higgins, don't want to sound like a negatoid, but maybe it comes out that way. All new coaches have a hill to climb, though the one at RU always seems to be particularly steep. All of the new hires did OK, considering. Definitely better than Pike.
After the Littlepaige disaster, Wenzel's first class was Darryl Smith (though, he brought in some really high-profile transfers (yes--that's recruiting) that really jumpstarted the program.) When Bannon came in, so did Jeff Greer. Next year Dante Jones and Rashod Kent.
Gary Waters -- apparently a mediocre recruiter. After the disaster of naked free-throws, he kept Shields, brought in JUCO Coleman, Wiggan. Lamizana--don't know who brought him in. BTW--Pike had a month longer to recruit first class than waters. Water 1st "real" class was Adrian Hill and a bunch of reaches.
Fred Hill -- 1st class Hamady. 2nd Corey Chandler, Coburn. (Note: Rosario and Echinique weren't til 3rd year)
Rice -- Biruta, Poole. Then Carter, Jack, Mack, Lewis, RAndall, Seagears. (Surprisingly, only Judge in yr 3, though he was probably a xfer in yr 2)
Jordan -- after ANOTHER PR disaster. Etou, Moore, Freeman(?). 2nd: Foreman, Doorson, Williams.
Pike: Gettys, Thiam, Sa, Omaruyi. 2nd Gio, Mensah.
Sooo....everyone recruited a better player than CJ in their first year. And I've left better players off my list than Thiam, Sa, and O have shown. Massive improvement doesn't seem in the cards. Gio seems like the real deal. Mensah?
I guess I'm saying that Pike, along with what is supposed to be a staff full of phenominal recruiters, aren't yet getting the job done there. I'm praying that changes, hopeful for sure, but more than a little nervous.
After the Littlepaige disaster, Wenzel's first class was Darryl Smith (though, he brought in some really high-profile transfers (yes--that's recruiting) that really jumpstarted the program.) When Bannon came in, so did Jeff Greer. Next year Dante Jones and Rashod Kent.
Gary Waters -- apparently a mediocre recruiter. After the disaster of naked free-throws, he kept Shields, brought in JUCO Coleman, Wiggan. Lamizana--don't know who brought him in. BTW--Pike had a month longer to recruit first class than waters. Water 1st "real" class was Adrian Hill and a bunch of reaches.
Fred Hill -- 1st class Hamady. 2nd Corey Chandler, Coburn. (Note: Rosario and Echinique weren't til 3rd year)
Rice -- Biruta, Poole. Then Carter, Jack, Mack, Lewis, RAndall, Seagears. (Surprisingly, only Judge in yr 3, though he was probably a xfer in yr 2)
Jordan -- after ANOTHER PR disaster. Etou, Moore, Freeman(?). 2nd: Foreman, Doorson, Williams.
Pike: Gettys, Thiam, Sa, Omaruyi. 2nd Gio, Mensah.
Sooo....everyone recruited a better player than CJ in their first year. And I've left better players off my list than Thiam, Sa, and O have shown. Massive improvement doesn't seem in the cards. Gio seems like the real deal. Mensah?
I guess I'm saying that Pike, along with what is supposed to be a staff full of phenominal recruiters, aren't yet getting the job done there. I'm praying that changes, hopeful for sure, but more than a little nervous.
Um... what? Take off the revisionist history glasses.
Waters: Shields, Wiggan, and McCoy were all Bannon recruits that Waters retained. Coleman was the only guy he brought in for Year 1, and he was a Juco.
Hill: First class was only Hamady, who struggled for two years before coming on as an upperclassman. His second class saw exactly one player (Coburn) make it past his sophomore season, with four more who left (Chandler, Pettis, Sofman, Rigogliioso).
Rice: Biruta was recruited by Hill, as was Carroll. Poole was his first recruit, along with Tyree Graham who never made it to campus.
Jordan: Etou, Campbell, Brown... then Foreman, Doorson, Diallo. Four of those six were here for short stints. Jury still out on Doorson/Diallo.
Pikiell: Omoruyi, Thiam, Gettys, Sa.
Don't know how you get how those new hires were "definitely better than Pike" on the recruiting trail after he's had less than 12 months on the job.
I think people expected much more out of that class. 1 of the 3 you mentioned transferred. the other (Jack) had a sr. year that was very underwhelming. Mack was Mack...he had his limitations, but hard to say he didnt exceed expectations...so I will give you that. The other 3? Blech.
so to say that the class was what was expected is just wrong. Sorry.
Looking a little deeper at the players brought in by each coach, and when they brought them in:
Waters:
Year 1 - Coleman
Year 2 - Hill, Wooten (tr), Davis (tr)
Year 3 - Douby, Webb, Joynes
Year 4 - Bailey, Quezada (tr), Waterstradt (tr)
Year 5 - Inman, Farmer, Griffin, Gibson (tr).... then fired
Brought in 14 players, 5 transferred out. Best classes were Year 3 and Year 5. Not a whole lot in the first two years... just Coleman (Juco) and Hill.
Hill:
Year 1 - N'Diaye
Year 2 - Coburn, Nelson, Pettis (tr), Chandler (tr), Sofman (tr)
Year 3 - Mitchell, Rosario (tr), Echenique (tr), Jackson (tr), Morris (tr)
Year 4 - Miller, Johnson, Beatty, Okam (tr)
Year 5 - Biruta (tr), Carroll (tr)... then fired
Brought in 17 players, 10 transferred out. Best class was Year 3 (but all transferred out but Jonathan Mitchell) and Year 4. Again, not a whole lot in the first two years... N'Diaye was a project who blossomed later, and Coburn.
Rice:
Year 1 - Poole, Lumpkins
Year 2 - Mack, Jack, Lewis, Kone, Judge, Carter (tr), Seagears (tr), Randall (tr)
Year 3 - Garrett (tr)... then fired
Brought in 11 players, 4 transferred. Year 2 was his only really strong recruiting year... but he also had 8 ships to fill... really just had Poole in Year 1.
Jordan:
Year 1 - Moore, Etou (tr), Okoro (tr), Brown (tr), Campbell (tr)
Year 2 - Williams, Doorson, Diallo, Daniels, Foreman (tr)
Year 3 - Sanders, Freeman, Laurent, Johnson, Goode (tr)
Year 4 - Thiam... then fired
Brought in 16 players, 6 transferred. Most of Year 1 ended up not panning out (4 of 5 weren't around in Year 2, and 0 were around for Year 3)... but Years 2 and 3 were pretty good. Jordan's failures were less in recruiting than in coaching.
(Debated about where to put Thiam.... he originally committed to Jordan, and then reopened after Jordan was fired... Pike convinced him to recommit)
Pikiell:
Year 1 - Gettys, Omoruyi, Sa, Bullock
Year 2 - Baker, Mensah
Year 3 - Doucoure
Remains to be seen if anyone transfers and we end up adding to the 2017 class. Gettys was solid this year, but it's hard to compare anyone else yet... Omoruyi and Thiam have just had one season in largely reserve roles, and we haven't yet seen Bullock, Baker, Mensah, or Doucoure suited up.
Waters:
Year 1 - Coleman
Year 2 - Hill, Wooten (tr), Davis (tr)
Year 3 - Douby, Webb, Joynes
Year 4 - Bailey, Quezada (tr), Waterstradt (tr)
Year 5 - Inman, Farmer, Griffin, Gibson (tr).... then fired
Brought in 14 players, 5 transferred out. Best classes were Year 3 and Year 5. Not a whole lot in the first two years... just Coleman (Juco) and Hill.
Hill:
Year 1 - N'Diaye
Year 2 - Coburn, Nelson, Pettis (tr), Chandler (tr), Sofman (tr)
Year 3 - Mitchell, Rosario (tr), Echenique (tr), Jackson (tr), Morris (tr)
Year 4 - Miller, Johnson, Beatty, Okam (tr)
Year 5 - Biruta (tr), Carroll (tr)... then fired
Brought in 17 players, 10 transferred out. Best class was Year 3 (but all transferred out but Jonathan Mitchell) and Year 4. Again, not a whole lot in the first two years... N'Diaye was a project who blossomed later, and Coburn.
Rice:
Year 1 - Poole, Lumpkins
Year 2 - Mack, Jack, Lewis, Kone, Judge, Carter (tr), Seagears (tr), Randall (tr)
Year 3 - Garrett (tr)... then fired
Brought in 11 players, 4 transferred. Year 2 was his only really strong recruiting year... but he also had 8 ships to fill... really just had Poole in Year 1.
Jordan:
Year 1 - Moore, Etou (tr), Okoro (tr), Brown (tr), Campbell (tr)
Year 2 - Williams, Doorson, Diallo, Daniels, Foreman (tr)
Year 3 - Sanders, Freeman, Laurent, Johnson, Goode (tr)
Year 4 - Thiam... then fired
Brought in 16 players, 6 transferred. Most of Year 1 ended up not panning out (4 of 5 weren't around in Year 2, and 0 were around for Year 3)... but Years 2 and 3 were pretty good. Jordan's failures were less in recruiting than in coaching.
(Debated about where to put Thiam.... he originally committed to Jordan, and then reopened after Jordan was fired... Pike convinced him to recommit)
Pikiell:
Year 1 - Gettys, Omoruyi, Sa, Bullock
Year 2 - Baker, Mensah
Year 3 - Doucoure
Remains to be seen if anyone transfers and we end up adding to the 2017 class. Gettys was solid this year, but it's hard to compare anyone else yet... Omoruyi and Thiam have just had one season in largely reserve roles, and we haven't yet seen Bullock, Baker, Mensah, or Doucoure suited up.
I'm not a historian, but doesn't the level of the program have something to do with the recruiting or recruits brought in??
I think to keep the topic on the current staff, it's not about first class, because there were less than 10 kids on ship when Pike was hired....and of those 10, more than half were upperclassmen....so what was Pike supposed to do this spring, wait around and practice with 9 kids and 4 to 5 walk-ons??
2017 is truly the first class that counts, since in the spring of any hire, you are done with 2017 recruiting for the most part....doesn't mean there isn't a Jon Severe type of player that Eddie Jordan tried and didn't land but for the most part it's impossible to determine what you want to figure out.
All I can say is the existing players for the most part all improved from last year to this year....we were woefully out of shape and not in prime condition....we played catch up all summer and got stronger.
Regardless of what happens in recruiting for the rest of 2017, my guess will be that every single recruit isn't going be an immediate starter caliber, but I'm pretty certain that we'll land a couple of players that are not yet named, that will help us next season.
The similarity is Pike's first season and Rice's first year looked the same.....felt like we overachieved in both cases and recruiting was on the uptick....RU has as deep of a staff in 2 decades, but the best thing about the staff is that they actually need to keep up with the rest of the conference that's miles ahead of RU.....so while we catch up, the staff hopefully stays intact for a couple of recruiting cycles and really gets their resumes beefed up, so they can become head coaches at their next stops.
The assistant coaching tree is key here. Recruiting/scouting/game days/self-scouting all has an impact on improving. While talent is critical, talent that fits and wants to play defense/rebound and work hard, is also important as well. Let's revisit this thread at the end of the summer, I think we'll be in much better shape, but I agree that as of today, there is a reason to be concerned...not having names or signees is unsettling for some fans.....for folks like me, the more we see this team play, the better the reputation is becoming on the street for recruiting down the road. You almost want more spots to be filled, because the players likely filling it, will be upgrades vs trying to convince others already on the roster.
I think to keep the topic on the current staff, it's not about first class, because there were less than 10 kids on ship when Pike was hired....and of those 10, more than half were upperclassmen....so what was Pike supposed to do this spring, wait around and practice with 9 kids and 4 to 5 walk-ons??
2017 is truly the first class that counts, since in the spring of any hire, you are done with 2017 recruiting for the most part....doesn't mean there isn't a Jon Severe type of player that Eddie Jordan tried and didn't land but for the most part it's impossible to determine what you want to figure out.
All I can say is the existing players for the most part all improved from last year to this year....we were woefully out of shape and not in prime condition....we played catch up all summer and got stronger.
Regardless of what happens in recruiting for the rest of 2017, my guess will be that every single recruit isn't going be an immediate starter caliber, but I'm pretty certain that we'll land a couple of players that are not yet named, that will help us next season.
The similarity is Pike's first season and Rice's first year looked the same.....felt like we overachieved in both cases and recruiting was on the uptick....RU has as deep of a staff in 2 decades, but the best thing about the staff is that they actually need to keep up with the rest of the conference that's miles ahead of RU.....so while we catch up, the staff hopefully stays intact for a couple of recruiting cycles and really gets their resumes beefed up, so they can become head coaches at their next stops.
The assistant coaching tree is key here. Recruiting/scouting/game days/self-scouting all has an impact on improving. While talent is critical, talent that fits and wants to play defense/rebound and work hard, is also important as well. Let's revisit this thread at the end of the summer, I think we'll be in much better shape, but I agree that as of today, there is a reason to be concerned...not having names or signees is unsettling for some fans.....for folks like me, the more we see this team play, the better the reputation is becoming on the street for recruiting down the road. You almost want more spots to be filled, because the players likely filling it, will be upgrades vs trying to convince others already on the roster.
if you are going to look at the recruits, IMO Bannon did the best early on...somehow landed 6'5" Greer (wish he had also landed Ricardo Greer, Jeff's brother who went to Pitt and was a part of their turnaround and killed us) who averaged double digit points and was a steady 3 we haven't had since Shields was here as an undersized 3...then it was Dahntay and Kent and Salvi as as JUCO...back then, our problem was a big, and he got Tenys who was bleh...but he had a guy he got from Alabama, Eugene Dabney, who did great early as a frosh until he hurt his knee and missed the rest of the season and wasn't the same...
Rice brought in a lot of frosh players, but much like how PSU is now, there is a learning curve...and yes, there was baggage and some came here for certain reasons, but this is why I started the other thread about jump starting this through transfers...any frosh you get now is for 18...get a transfer who has performed at a mid/lower-level conference, sit out next year, and then I'd take that 2-3 years over a frosh that needs 2 years to learn...at least 1-2 of them and 1-2 frosh...not a 5 man freshmen class is what I don't want...PSU is learning through it...even Nova, when they stole Wright from us, and he brought in a very heralded class, it took them over 2 seasons to mesh--we crushed them in the NIT en route to the NIT final, and the next year it clicked for them...doesn't always happen...
Rice brought in a lot of frosh players, but much like how PSU is now, there is a learning curve...and yes, there was baggage and some came here for certain reasons, but this is why I started the other thread about jump starting this through transfers...any frosh you get now is for 18...get a transfer who has performed at a mid/lower-level conference, sit out next year, and then I'd take that 2-3 years over a frosh that needs 2 years to learn...at least 1-2 of them and 1-2 frosh...not a 5 man freshmen class is what I don't want...PSU is learning through it...even Nova, when they stole Wright from us, and he brought in a very heralded class, it took them over 2 seasons to mesh--we crushed them in the NIT en route to the NIT final, and the next year it clicked for them...doesn't always happen...
Tenys looked so good that first game... then the refs realized he was traveling basically every time he made a move to the basket.
RUChopping: You missed my point. I was comparing recruiting for the first two years (What Pike's had so far), not what all of their recruiting classes were. I was only counting somewhat heralded signees and players that had an impact.
Waters: After the debacle of naked free throws Shields, Wiggan, and McCoy were essentially gone and heavy re-recruiting was needed. Even if you take those away, the snagging of Jerome trumps the total of what Pike signed to his initial class. (And CJ is ONE year) 2nd class? Tell me Geo will have the impact Adrian Hill had (with significant injuries) and I'll do cartwheels.
Wanna talk about Hill? Hamady was a project, one who was coveted by many programs. Again, I'd take him over the totality of Pike's first. BTW-Gettys was nowhere near expected to be as impactful as he was, But Pike gets full credit to bringing in a nice player. And just because a recruit eventually xfers, does not make him a lousy recruit. Chandler was a top notch get, even though he didn't work out here. Pettis (forgot about him) had a nice career at Temple, even though he didn't work out here. Sofman and Rig...were zeros. Sorta like Bullock. But you don't hold it against coach. It's the *s and successes that count. So tell me: whose 1/2 recruiting classes would you rather have, Hill or Pike?
Rice: I'll give Biruta was Hill's. My bad. However, whose 1/2 classes would prefer, Rice or Pike?
Jordan: Forgot about Freeman? Williams? I know Nigel was year 3 class, but wasn't Freeman year 2? (could be wrong.) Again, being repetitive: Would you really want Pike's 1/2 instead of Jordan's 1/2?
Wenzel: I guess you're giving me him. Tough choice considering just xfers Kieth Hughes and Earl Duncan.
BTW - ALL new coaches had about the same time that Pike's had (some less). Two of them (Waters, Jordan) had significant baggage to overcome. Even Rice had Hill's bizarre behavior to deal with.
What I'm saying is that the previous 5 coaches each had a better first two classes than Pike. I don't think you can honestly tell me otherwise. I'm told his staff is outstanding on the recruiting and the coaching front. Quite apparent on the court. But where is it on the recruiting trail?
We can talk about year 3 if you'd like: A 4* verbal. He's going to need a lot more than that. If on court performance is not significantly better -- and we all agree a tougher B1G, tough OOC -- the hopefully coming great class better be signed before we finish a 4 win B1G season. That's my worry. Because it won't matter how much time you give him. You've only got so much time to get over the hump.
Waters: After the debacle of naked free throws Shields, Wiggan, and McCoy were essentially gone and heavy re-recruiting was needed. Even if you take those away, the snagging of Jerome trumps the total of what Pike signed to his initial class. (And CJ is ONE year) 2nd class? Tell me Geo will have the impact Adrian Hill had (with significant injuries) and I'll do cartwheels.
Wanna talk about Hill? Hamady was a project, one who was coveted by many programs. Again, I'd take him over the totality of Pike's first. BTW-Gettys was nowhere near expected to be as impactful as he was, But Pike gets full credit to bringing in a nice player. And just because a recruit eventually xfers, does not make him a lousy recruit. Chandler was a top notch get, even though he didn't work out here. Pettis (forgot about him) had a nice career at Temple, even though he didn't work out here. Sofman and Rig...were zeros. Sorta like Bullock. But you don't hold it against coach. It's the *s and successes that count. So tell me: whose 1/2 recruiting classes would you rather have, Hill or Pike?
Rice: I'll give Biruta was Hill's. My bad. However, whose 1/2 classes would prefer, Rice or Pike?
Jordan: Forgot about Freeman? Williams? I know Nigel was year 3 class, but wasn't Freeman year 2? (could be wrong.) Again, being repetitive: Would you really want Pike's 1/2 instead of Jordan's 1/2?
Wenzel: I guess you're giving me him. Tough choice considering just xfers Kieth Hughes and Earl Duncan.
BTW - ALL new coaches had about the same time that Pike's had (some less). Two of them (Waters, Jordan) had significant baggage to overcome. Even Rice had Hill's bizarre behavior to deal with.
What I'm saying is that the previous 5 coaches each had a better first two classes than Pike. I don't think you can honestly tell me otherwise. I'm told his staff is outstanding on the recruiting and the coaching front. Quite apparent on the court. But where is it on the recruiting trail?
We can talk about year 3 if you'd like: A 4* verbal. He's going to need a lot more than that. If on court performance is not significantly better -- and we all agree a tougher B1G, tough OOC -- the hopefully coming great class better be signed before we finish a 4 win B1G season. That's my worry. Because it won't matter how much time you give him. You've only got so much time to get over the hump.
Comparing previous coaches and previous time periods is meaningless.
Pikiell goes from coaching a small school to Rutgers. Was he involved with AAU coaches and the like at Stony Brook? I am guessing he had to build a network and probably still is.
Jordan inherited a mess, but he was right in the middle of the AAU scene and had a network
Mike Rice had a similar situation to Pikiell
Fred Hill had the benefit of recruiting years before he started on the job. He had a huge advantage relative to others
Pikiell goes from coaching a small school to Rutgers. Was he involved with AAU coaches and the like at Stony Brook? I am guessing he had to build a network and probably still is.
Jordan inherited a mess, but he was right in the middle of the AAU scene and had a network
Mike Rice had a similar situation to Pikiell
Fred Hill had the benefit of recruiting years before he started on the job. He had a huge advantage relative to others
Few things:
1. Pikiell hasn't had two years so far, he's had one (not even one, actually). He's had one class signed, and his second has two commitments right now. We don't know if that class is done, or if there will be transfers after the Big Ten tournament that will open up further spots. At this point in 2011, we thought we had Mike Taylor as part of the class and didn't yet have Eli Carter, so things can change. Comparing Pikiell's "Year Two" to anyone right now is meaningless.
2. Comparing "Year 1" players right now really doesn't mean a whole lot for freshmen like Omoruyi/Thiam/Bullock. Omoruyi and Thiam had fairly comparable numbers to what N'Diaye and Hill put up in their freshman years, and there's no telling what they'll do over the next three years (or if they'll transfer). They also had similar numbers to Kone, whose numbers were worse as a senior than as a freshman, so there's no telling whether these guys will pan out, either. Trying to somehow say anything about how they rank against guys who played multiple years here is meaningless.
Omoruyi: 2.5 ppg, 2.5 rpg, 1.1 ast, 0.5 stl, 0.3 blk
Thiam: 3.5 ppg, 1.8 rpg, 0.3 ast, 0.4 stl, 0.1 blk
N'Diaye: 2.7 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 0.2 ast, 0.3 stl, 1.7 blk
Hill: 3.2 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 0.2 ast, 0.2 stl, 0.8 blk
Kone: 3.3 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 0.4 ast, 0.3 stl, 0.2 blk
3. Chandler was a hot prospect, but turned out to be a mess off the court (and at times on the court). He was dismissed from the team and ended up at Div III. Don't know how he was a "top notch get". We have the luxury of looking at past classes in terms of how they played out, not just in terms of the potential they had in the moment. At the time, it looked like D'Antwann Williams and Savon Huggins were going to be world beaters... but their productivity never matched their star rating. Don't get too hung up on star ratings... Seagears was a 4*, while Mack was a 3*.
4. Transfers matter. If a guy looked good on paper, but didn't pan out and transferred... that "miss" is on the coaching staff. Whether it was overvaluing the prospect when the offer was made (guys who transfer out and disappear), misusing the player while on the team (guys who light it up after they transfer), or guys who just weren't happy with the coach/culture/team. Jordan's first class was ephemeral... it was as if he didn't recruit anyone that year, because we got no upperclassmen out of it in Years 3 and 4. Look back and see how many guys have participated in Senior Night over the last decade and a half... and you'll see how good our coaches were at bringing in the right guys.
We'll know what Pike's "Year 2" class looks like in a few months - at which point we can talk about their potential vs. prior classes' results (which isn't really meaningful, but we won't have Pike's initial class results for a few years).
Hey, NONE of them at this point had two years on the job. That's the whole point of the argument. And yeah, he still could technically get a terrific player added to this class, but you won't find too many people to take that bet.
Secondly, we're comparing recruiting classes. Not careers. Classes aren't ranked 4-5 years after they're done, they're rated immediately. There are always busts and surprises. You're essentially telling me stars don't matter, it's only how they turn out the last year in your school. So, we should be just as excited about Mensah as we would about Naz Reid. Don't IGNORE star ratings. And I guess Calipari's classes must rate pretty low because so many don't see their soph year. Where are you putting your even-money bets? I guess Hill was a lousy recruiter because Rosario and Echinique left. Same for Rice, as only Mack & Jack stayed. And how do injuries fit in there? A 4* gets hurt in his soph year, ruining his remaining time. Does that make him a lousy recruit?
Yes, like Chandler, some good players (and Chandler was very good) don't work out for the reasons you mentioned. Doesn't make them crap recruits.
"The battle goes not always to the strong, nor the race to the fleet, but that's the way to bet."
I'll say it another way: We win only 3 B1G games next year and if Doucore comes in with only a couple of 2*, he won't be around long enough to see how "good" his first class was.
Secondly, we're comparing recruiting classes. Not careers. Classes aren't ranked 4-5 years after they're done, they're rated immediately. There are always busts and surprises. You're essentially telling me stars don't matter, it's only how they turn out the last year in your school. So, we should be just as excited about Mensah as we would about Naz Reid. Don't IGNORE star ratings. And I guess Calipari's classes must rate pretty low because so many don't see their soph year. Where are you putting your even-money bets? I guess Hill was a lousy recruiter because Rosario and Echinique left. Same for Rice, as only Mack & Jack stayed. And how do injuries fit in there? A 4* gets hurt in his soph year, ruining his remaining time. Does that make him a lousy recruit?
Yes, like Chandler, some good players (and Chandler was very good) don't work out for the reasons you mentioned. Doesn't make them crap recruits.
"The battle goes not always to the strong, nor the race to the fleet, but that's the way to bet."
I'll say it another way: We win only 3 B1G games next year and if Doucore comes in with only a couple of 2*, he won't be around long enough to see how "good" his first class was.
Just curious, how many years do you give Pikiell to show his work?
I think he gets six years. He will get some great players for 2018. I guarantee it.
Higg - I like your posts, so appreciate your ongoing insights. I will tell you that the staff loves Baker and has very, very high expectations for him; IMO this was not at all a case of them setting their sights low because it was their first year, etc. Big Ten is a tough run for freshmen, so who knows about stats, but I think this is a guy that will be a really good player for RU the next four years. I also think there will be a lot of development within RU's current roster. Remember, the staff did not even have a full off-season last year. I would look for dramatic improvement from Omoruyi and Thiam, and continued substantial improvement from Freeman and Sanders.
I'm looking at recruiting success - not recruiting ratings. Those are two different things.
If I were trying to make a case about which coach did a better job recruiting, I wouldn't value a class full of 5 stars that all flopped/transferred over a class full of 3 stars that saw guys make all-conference in their senior season. Recruiting success is "did you get players who excelled and elevated the program" not "did you get guys with high numbers next to their names". Chandler, in my mind, is not a recruiting success, but Mack is. When looking at coaches' recruiting ability (coaches don't give a rat's ass about stars, fwiw), it's about who brought in the guys who elevated the program... in that regard, Rice did a better job signing Mack than Hill did signing Chandler.
Was Bo Ryan a good recruiter at Wisconsin? By star ratings... no. By results... yes. From 2009-2015 he brought in just 2 guys with more than 3* (Dekker and Koenig)... yet they got to the NCAA tournament every one of those years, because he was bringing in guys who brought value to the program.
As for Calipari - it's not about guys leaving early, it's about them finding success and elevating the program. Having a guy come for 1-2 years and go to the NBA is a completely different beast than havin a guy take up a scholarship for 1-2 years and wash out. Not sure what false equivalence you're trying for there.
Star ratings are great to look at when talking about guys who haven't set foot on the court. Once they do, though, star ratings go out the window in favor of performance. Who was a better recruiting success - Ray Rice or Savon Huggins? No one cares what your star rating was once you suit up.
No problem.
I am also very high on Baker and what he will be able to do and contribute here.
Great point about how they did not have a full offseason.
Thiam eating with a higher release, watch it. Great kid.
I was painting a worst case scenario picture. I love Pike as a coach. He has a real chance. I don't expect a miracle recruit for 2017. Hoping for a decent guy, maybe even diamond in the rough. My realistic scenario is a flat+ year on the court (we'll be better, so will the league), with an upset or two and Pikiell and his staff (planted seeds will sprout) signing another 4* and a eye opening 3*. Hopefully a specialist short timer. This'll buy 2 more years, which will have us on a good trajectory.
Lemme ask you: who was the last coach they gave six years to? Waters had moderate success through 5, and he couldn't get 6, 7 or 8. If he gets 6, he's here a long time.
But to answer your question.....it depends. Unless something huge happens with the 2017 class, we gotta wait for some verbals for '18
Lemme ask you: who was the last coach they gave six years to? Waters had moderate success through 5, and he couldn't get 6, 7 or 8. If he gets 6, he's here a long time.
But to answer your question.....it depends. Unless something huge happens with the 2017 class, we gotta wait for some verbals for '18
[QUOTE="higgins3, post: 2658400, member: 5098"
Thiam eating with a higher release, watch it. Great kid.[/QUOTE]
Great idea, except he never eats. When he does must eat with the higher release.
Using your idea let's have Corey eat with his left hand.
Have 3man (love your nickname) Eugene and Laurent eat outside the dining hall.
Thiam eating with a higher release, watch it. Great kid.[/QUOTE]
Great idea, except he never eats. When he does must eat with the higher release.
Using your idea let's have Corey eat with his left hand.
Have 3man (love your nickname) Eugene and Laurent eat outside the dining hall.
