Video: Gene Has a Bad Knee?

[anon_0k9zlfz6lz9oy]

Way to cherry pick one game in which NO ONE could stop Giorgi. Doorson actually guarded him most of the game and Eugene tried in OT to shoulder that load. It was a once in a lifetime offensive performance, not a signal of Eugene’s failure. Though I’m sure at LA Fitness they would’ve sent the help defender early.

so I'll ask you this. You think eugene was a good defender? I'd say he was average at best on the defensive end of the floor and the stats back it up.

 

[RUChoppin]

1) He wasn't our best scorer. In fact the games he was our top scorer the team as a whole was awful those games and record far worse.

This is a really interesting point. When Omoruyi was our leading scorer, we were 4-9... when he was our 2nd leading scorer we were 3-2, when he was 3rd were 4-2, and outside the top 3 we were 3-4.

By contrast, when Baker was our leading scorer (or tied for leading), we were 5-2... when he was 2nd we were 5-5, when 3rd we were 1-4, and outside the top 3 we were 3-6.

When anyone other than Baker/Omoruyi was leading scorer (or tied for leading scorer), we were 6-7.

 

[willisneverrana43]

It's data mining and results in smaller and smaller cuts that have little to no meaning. For instance, these numbers could mean that, if you were willing to give them any meaning at all, when the rest of the team doesn't score well, we lose, even though Omo still scores. Or that Omo leads in scoring against better competition, like the B1G, because he's a better player and our other players can't score as well against that competition--yet we lose those games more often because the competition is better. Then, against the lesser competition, the other players can and do score, we can win, and so you get these numbers. And so on. This kind of data cutting never means much to me. And it particularly doesn't mean anything here, since it's the result of a conclusion looking for data, which is where this stuff most often comes up anyway.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Are we going to hold it against Eugene that we lost to PSU? Geo played 35 minutes and was 0-10 from the floor. Eugene was 7-14 9-11

 

[Caliknight]

The most important question is, how is the grad transfer doing?

 

[willisneverrana43]

Maybe, but it's not a question for now. You won't get that answer until November-December, and then really not until January when the league schedule hits full stride. Until then, it will be just the same type of off-season speculation we get here every year.

 

[RUtrumpet92]

What would people say about Geo Baker’s game if he left. No one would dare say it now.

Can you imagine if he was under the same microscope.

I'll say what I think of his game now: he has huge games but throws in some duds too. Geo needs to be more consistent to get to the next level. He often waited for the game to come to him last year, which I don't mind, but sometimes he may be too patient. Let's see how he does with the ball less in his hands next year - say Young or Mulcahy are feeding him at times like Corey did two years ago.

 

[willisneverrana43]

Are we going to hold it against Eugene that we lost to PSU? Geo played 35 minutes and was 0-10 from the floor. Eugene was 7-14 9-11

Or the season-ender in the B1G tournament against Nebraska, in which Omo scored 16 on 50% shooting, hitting all his free throws, and had 5 assists and, other than Johnson with 11 in 27 minutes, no one else could score in double digits? Harper played almost as many minutes, scored only 7, missed almost every three-pointer, and bullied his way to zero assists.

 

[RUChoppin]

Or the season-ender in the B1G tournament against Nebraska, in which Omo scored 16 on 50% shooting, hitting all his free throws, and had 5 assists and, other than Johnson with 11 in 27 minutes, no one else could score in double digits? Harper played almost as many minutes, scored only 7, missed almost every three-pointer, and bullied his way to zero assists.

Unfortunately in that game, Omoruyi didn't score a point over the last 14:45, and Baker scored no points from the 15:05 mark in the first half to the 1:12 mark in the second half.

It's interesting to me, though, that when Omoruyi was hot it didn't necessarily lead to wins (other boats didn't always rise with him... were 4-9 when he scored at least 15, and 10-5 in games he played and scored 14 or fewer). As opposed to Baker, where the team tended to win more when he played well (we were 8-3 in games where he scored 15 or more, and 6-14 when he scored 14 or fewer).

Agree that it's a small sample size, to be sure - but still something of note.

I'm curious what our stats are based on usage metrics, rather than points.

 

[dkostus]

True story: Eugene can go f#@k himself, because he decided to leave. All the other conversation is noise.

 

[littlenis5]

so I'll ask you this. You think eugene was a good defender? I'd say he was average at best on the defensive end of the floor and the stats back it up.

I think efficiency stats are less reliable in college when the competition and styles vary so greatly game to game. I think as a sophomore he looked like far and away the best defender on the team. With an increased offensive responsibility junior year (and ill grant you, an overemphasis on drawing charges/flopping) his defensive performance dropped off a bit. I think that’s normal. I’d still trust him most to be in the right place positionally in moments when we needed a stop. I think the only player arguably better defensively on a consistent basis was Doorson. Eugene would be our top returning proven defender, though it’s certainly possible that Harper/Mathis/Caleb could make that leap.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I get why people are focusing on the offensive side of the ball. We are now asking Harper and a player from American East to defend B1G 4s. That's what should keep Pikiell up at night with having ANY visions of post season play.

 

[RUChoppin]

I get why people are focusing on the offensive side of the ball. We are now asking Harper and a player from American East to defend B1G 4s. That's what should keep Pikiell up at night with having ANY visions of post season play.

Harper definitely looked better toward the end of the season in this regard - and I'm sure the offseason will help him improve in that area. I don't know about Yeboah - but I'm more confident in a 5th year guy knowing his role than an incoming freshman.

 

[willisneverrana43]

Unfortunately in that game, Omoruyi didn't score a point over the last 14:45, and Baker scored no points from the 15:05 mark in the first half to the 1:12 mark in the second half.. .

Yes, that kind of thing happens against B1G competition, which is why we've finished low or last in the standings every year. The other team is usually better. But we had an uptick this year because of better play, led by Omo.

. . .
It's interesting to me, though, that when Omoruyi was hot it didn't necessarily lead to wins (other boats didn't always rise with him... were 4-9 when he scored at least 15, and 10-5 in games he played and scored 14 or fewer). As opposed to Baker, where the team tended to win more when he played well (we were 8-3 in games where he scored 15 or more, and 6-14 when he scored 14 or fewer) . . . .

This is data mining at its finest, the statistical equivalent of sound bites. 3 of the 11 games you picked were the games in which Omo hurt his knee and his first two back when his minutes didn't cross the 30 mark. Let's see what happens if you drop those 3 and look only at your other 8 games (among Geo's best).

Geo averaged over 16 points, more than 4 points over his average. Very good. BUT he got considerable help from Omo, who averaged almost 14 points . In other words, when someone other than Omo also scores, we win more. I mean, if you like to use stats like this.

As to your 13 games in which Omo scored 15 or more. He averaged almost 19. Very, very good. Geo, however, did not contribute what Omo contributed during Geo's best games. He averaged around 11 1/2. That's not bad, but not the help Omo gave him in Geo's best games.

In this world of data mining, it's not hard to see why, when a player other than Geo scores well, RU wins. Because Omo is usually scoring too. And playing D. And rebounding. And so on.

For what it's worth, I'm not doing this again. I doesn't feel meaningful enough.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

We will find out soon enough how important Eugene was.

Can't watch Baker shoot 30% on his step back perimeter shots.
Can't have Harper play 30 MPG and score single digits more games then not
Can't have Mathis be a no show every other game
Can't have caleb play a 2g or SF position and take few shots

 

[Scangg]

EO was a good defender when healthy. He couldn't move by the end of the season. Comparing EO to Yeboah defensively is a more applicable argument here since he will be playing a ton of minutes at the 4 now instead. Yeboah appears to be a solid defender. I really don't think he will be a significant downgrade defensively

 

[RUChoppin]

Yes, that kind of thing happens against B1G competition, which is why we've finished low or last in the standings every year. The other team is usually better. But we had an uptick this year because of better play, led by Omo.



This is data mining at its finest, the statistical equivalent of sound bites. 3 of the 11 games you picked were the games in which Omo hurt his knee and his first two back when his minutes didn't cross the 30 mark. Let's see what happens if you drop those 3 and look only at your other 8 games (among Geo's best).

Geo averaged over 16 points, more than 4 points over his average. Very good. BUT he got considerable help from Omo, who averaged almost 14 points . In other words, when someone other than Omo also scores, we win more. I mean, if you like to use stats like this.

As to your 13 games in which Omo scored 15 or more. He averaged almost 19. Very, very good. Geo, however, did not contribute what Omo contributed during Geo's best games. He averaged around 11 1/2. That's not bad, but not the help Omo gave him in Geo's best games.

In this world of data mining, it's not hard to see why, when a player other than Geo scores well, RU wins. Because Omo is usually scoring too. And playing D. And rebounding. And so on.

For what it's worth, I'm not doing this again. I doesn't feel meaningful enough.

Was not intending to knock Omoruyi's contributions - and I'm definitely in the camp that we'd be better with him next year than without him. It's just that the team's performance didn't seem mirror his own. When teams let him get his and focused on shutting down Baker, we struggled more often than not... but when they let Baker get loose, the team performed better as a whole

In conference-level games (B1G plus SHU, SJU, and Miami), we were 0-8 when Omoruyi scored 15+ points (Baker averaged just 8.3 in those games, and the rest of the team 36.8). Against that same competition, we were 5-3 when Baker scored 15+ points (Omoruyi averaged 9.5 in those games, and the rest of the team 44).

It's possible that when Baker was threatening from the point, that allowed other players to get better looks - whereas when Omoruyi was threatening from the post, other players weren't able to capitalize as much? I don't know - just spitballing.

Hopefully next year with more guard/perimeter options, teams won't be able to key as heavily on shutting down Baker and we won't be as heavily dependent on him scoring in order to get wins. I don't know how consistent Yeboah will be in Omoruyi's place, but his outside shooting may space the floor a bit more to allow Johnson to work inside.

At this point trying to be optimistic - losing Omoruyi is a setback. I'm trying to look at different angles and perspectives to understand just how big of a setback.

 

[dkostus]

We will find out soon enough how important Eugene was.

Can't watch Baker shoot 30% on his step back perimeter shots.
Can't have Harper play 30 MPG and score single digits more games then not
Can't have Mathis be a no show every other game
Can't have caleb play a 2g or SF position and take few shots

Harper played 30 or more minutes in only 6 games. He had double figures in 5 of those 6 games, scoring 89 total points for just under 15/pg, excepting only the B1G tourney game where he played 32 minutes and had 7 points. (That is factored into these stats.)

Also, I'd love to know when you saw Caleb play extended minutes and not shoot. He's one of the more aggressive kids on the team post first ten games of last year

 

[willisneverrana43]

. . . It's just that the team's performance didn't seem mirror his own. When teams let him get his and focused on shutting down Baker, we struggled more often than not... . . . . . .

So team's were letting this happen? You now believe this data mined stats are the result of a focus by the other teams?

I will give you this, as I mentioned. When the players other than your best player also play well, you have a greater chance of wining. Of course.

 

[willisneverrana43]

Harper played 30 or more minutes in only 6 games. He had double figures in 5 of those 6 games, scoring 89 total points for just under 15/pg, excepting only the B1G tourney game where he played 32 minutes and had 7 points. (That is factored into these stats.)

Also, I'd love to know when you saw Caleb play extended minutes and not shoot. He's one of the more aggressive kids on the team post first ten games of last year

Imagine how great it will be, if Harper plays well regularly next year, when he then helps us by transferring. He'd clear the way for some new guy with decent stats for, say, 3 games. Then we'll do the same with Caleb.

 

[dkostus]

Imagine how great it will be, if Harper plays well regularly next year, when he then helps us by transferring. He'd clear the way for some new guy with decent stats for, say, 3 games. Then we'll do the same with Caleb.

This post was so insightful. Tell me more.

 

[willisneverrana43]

This post was so insightful. Tell me more.

That's enough for now. Rest up.

 

[dkostus]

That's enough for now. Rest up.

What are you, data mining my sleep stats? What a P.O.S. lies, damn lies and statistics. You clearly herald the end days.

Anyway, you are welcome to go **** ********

 

[RU-ROCS]

Improvement is expected....upside or ceiling is the reference point. Eugene wasn't a capable player in Year 1 at all, got better in Year 2 and based on the roster was the starter and improved more in Year 3. He's had 3 years to get to a player that can play and become a B1G level player. But without a jumper or inability to add that piece to his game, it limits a lot for the roster.

Maybe coming from such a long way from 2016 to 2019, was too much to ask for, but he's not a #1 or #2 option, without an ability to get his own basket off the dribble and without a jump shot.

The freshman we've recruited have a significantly better starting point and are not coming from as far behind as Eugene was as a freshman. The comparison of stat lines of this past year's freshman vs Eugene as a freshman isn't even worth discussing.

The players in place don't have to wait 2 more years to be able to generate their own points, shoot 3s and improve. They're already here.

The improvement items for the freshman turning sophs are already well documented. Mathis and Myles should be better from the line and add to their games on both ends of the court. Caleb needs to improve his handle, get stronger and add an ability to finish better in traffic. Harper getting in better shape and focus on defense and rebounding is key.

These items cannot always happen faster, if players like Thiam, Eugene and lesser extent Kiss, were in the way, blocking the development of better options.

I think Mulcahy has unique qualities as a passer and is unselfish, almost to a fault in HS and I've mentioned dozens of times, being a willing shooter and taking what defenses give him, will be important.

The players improving doesn't always translate that they have no.ceiling or unlimited upside.

All I know is that the perception around the league from opposing fans is that EO was the best player on our team last season. Indeed, I got more than a few texts from OSU, UW, MD and UM grads telling me what a huge blow EO's departure will be for RU. I tend to see it their way, despite all of the post-hoc rationalizations on this board. If you listened to Pike throughout last season, I think he also agreed with the assessment that EO was the best player on the floor for RU. Can we win without him? Sure. Will we win as many games as we would have won had he stayed and remained healthy? Not so sure.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Harper played 30 or more minutes in only 6 games. He had double figures in 5 of those 6 games, scoring 89 total points for just under 15/pg, excepting only the B1G tourney game where he played 32 minutes and had 7 points. (That is factored into these stats.)

Also, I'd love to know when you saw Caleb play extended minutes and not shoot. He's one of the more aggressive kids on the team post first ten games of last year

That’s why I love stats. You can prove most posts.

By only counting games where he played 30+ you are essentially only counting his good games.

 

[dkostus]

That’s why I love stats. You can prove most posts.

By only counting games where he played 30+ you are essentially only counting his good games.

Dude, you F'ing set up that parameter in your prior post!!!! Are you gaslighting me by claiming I cherry picked here? Read the post I quoted

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

No! Averaging 30 MPG and then taking numbers that are over 30 aren’t the same.

It’s like saying a starting pitcher needs to go longer and then calculate his ERA when he pitches 7 or more innings

 

[dkostus]

You specifically stated, "Can't have Harper play 30 MPG and score single digits more games then not"

Tell me what I got wrong before you have a pretentious freak out on statistics. What you said does not correlate to any version of reality. Am I wrong? Then f'ing show me. Don't act like I'm stupid while deflecting your own issues with logic and statistics

Edit: while I agree with my premise, my tone is way over the top. I only endorse that sometimes.

 

[RU-Choppin-Ohio]

Are we going to hold it against Eugene that we lost to PSU? Geo played 35 minutes and was 0-10 from the floor. Eugene was 7-14 9-11

Well everyone knows if Eugene is the leading scorer and Baker scores 4 points because he shoots 0-10.... it's Eugene's fault that Rutgers loses. It must be, he was the leading scorer..lol

This is exactly the type of BS some people are claiming...:rolleyes: .

A bunch of people are doing this deep dive into advanced stats on 1 Individual player ....but, in the overwhelming majority of games it comes down to a few simple things. The team that makes it's open shots normally wins, the team that wins the Turnover battle normally wins.

 

[RUChoppin]

So team's were letting this happen? You now believe this data mined stats are the result of a focus by the other teams?

I will give you this, as I mentioned. When the players other than your best player also play well, you have a greater chance of wining. Of course.

During the season, it was clear when teams would key on Baker and try to take him out of the game. That's not a stats thing, or a data mined thing... it's an eyes thing. When Baker got enough defensive focus to stifle him, we struggled. This also isn't some new "hot take" this week - it's been a topic of discussion since the SHU game when McKnight locked down Baker for the first half. Partly this is because it took the ball out of his hands to players who weren't as good running the point, and partly it's because he was less able to score. He was at the top of the scouting report.

Omoruyi was the heart and soul of the team last year, and was hugely important. But I don't think our win/loss success was as much based on how many points he scored in the post as it was his defense, intensity, etc. We were 4-5 when Omoruyi scored less than 10 or was absent (3 conference wins), and we were 2-7 when Baker scored less than 10 (1 conference win) - we were able to absorb Omoruyi struggling to score more than we could absorb Baker struggling to score.

I don't think we're going to agree on that.

Losing Omoruyi to me is less about who's going to replace his points - it's about who's going to replace everything else.

 

[willisneverrana43]

Oh, it’ll be his points too.

Guess who was 287th in the country in scoring last year? Well, all I can say is that, whichever team that is, it isn't some sort of machine that just keeps scoring when it loses its top scorer.

 

[mikemarc1]

Eugene's median game >>>>>> Corey's median game.

Rutgers basketball is on the map primarily because of Eugene Omoruyi. Easily the best player on the team last year...not even close.

Now how much worse is '19-'20 without him.....given that he was hobbled, given his eye was on pro basketball.........I can see the argument.

NCAA hopes for this year pretty much left when Eugene left, the question I have were they really faint to begin with?

Eugene was not that much of a difference maker. Him leaving has no effect on our ncaa hopes. Either we an ncaa team with or without him, or we aren’t. He’s not a guy that would have made or broken our team this year.

 

[dpwhite]

Eugene was not that much of a difference maker. Him leaving has no effect on our ncaa hopes. Either we an ncaa team with or without him, or we aren’t. He’s not a guy that would have made or broken our team this year.

This is the most laugh out loud post ever. Eugene was the leader of this team last year along with Geo. It's not like a guy who played 3 minutes per game left.

 

[RU-Choppin-Ohio]

Eugene was not that much of a difference maker. Him leaving has no effect on our ncaa hopes. Either we an ncaa team with or without him, or we aren’t. He’s not a guy that would have made or broken our team this year.

[roll][roll][roll]

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I remember all those posts when Eugene got hurt saying we really didn’t need him and then all the posts when came back that the team wasn’t any better with him.

 

[mikemarc1]

Eugene was not that much of a difference maker. Him leaving has no effect on our ncaa hopes. Either we an ncaa team with or without him, or we aren’t. He’s not a guy that would have made or broken our team this year.

This is the most laugh out loud post ever. Eugene was the leader of this team last year along with Geo. It's not like a guy who played 3 minutes per game left.

And it’s not like a guy that was an all American left either.

Saying we had legitimate ncaa hopes 2 weeks ago and saying now he have none is laughable too, imo. Guy was not THAT much of a difference maker.

Realistic goal before Eugene left and after he left is still NIT.

 

[RU-Choppin-Ohio]

what is eugene's net charge # though? In other words for every time he takes a charge what is the net result? How many result in a block? How many result in a flop and a free two points when he's on his ass? How many result in a whiff?

Come on Man...you are really reaching now.

Well, every charge was a change of possession, ball to Rutgers.......28 last year, 25 the year before. Big momentum changes too.

Do you think there was anywhere near 28 blocking fouls on Eugene? And by the way, blocking fouls only result in foul shots if it is in the act of shooting or the team is over the limit.

 

[RU-Choppin-Ohio]

I remember all those posts when Eugene got hurt saying we really didn’t need him and then all the posts when came back that the team wasn’t any better with him.

Eugene only led the team in points, rebounds, charges taken, foul shot attempts (By far)... With 126 and made 72%.

Yea right...he won't be missed.

 

[RutgHoops]

Or the season-ender in the B1G tournament against Nebraska, in which Omo scored 16 on 50% shooting, hitting all his free throws, and had 5 assists and, other than Johnson with 11 in 27 minutes, no one else could score in double digits? Harper played almost as many minutes, scored only 7, missed almost every three-pointer, and bullied his way to zero assists.

Eugene got absolutely torched on the defensive side of the ball in that game. Walk ons beat him, mediocre scholarship players beat him and Palmer obliterated him. (IMO) EO was frustrated to the point he committed one of the worst fouls I have seen a Rutgers player ever commit (his intentional on Palmer in the last minute).

I am not arguing whether your position is valid or not. Simply pointing out you used a poor example of a game where Eugene demonstrated how invaluable he was to Rutgers. It was an awful performance. The video doesn't lie.

 

[gordel1]

Wow I forgot about that silly flagrant foul and yes really focusing now on EO for the first time since I saw the game he shows little to no effort on the defensive end throughout the entire game. Either that or his injury doesn't allow to play any tough defense.