Rutgers is 6-3 in B1G when Ace and Dylan are both healthy
- Thread starter Degaz-RU
- Start date
Yeah so maybe Michigan and Wisconsin has a different result. We were down 3 at half at MSG against MSU and Dylan couldn’t go and J . Richardson erupted. Dylan on that stage would have made a big difference second half completely healthy. We played Maryland the best of any team at their place and it is a 5 point game when ACE checks out . We couldn’t handle Queen and no ACE to provide any help.
There's 5 to 6 versions of this current team.
OOC with Martini, Derkack, Hayes and Ogbole in starting roles or playing 10 to 20 minutes a game with little from Acuff. But competition wasn't strong.....
OOC mixed with 2 B1G games with Martini, Derkack, Hayes and Ogbole in starting roles or playing 10 to 20 minutes a game with little from Acuff. Competition much stronger or talented and no contributions from other 2 freshman (Grant and Dortch)
OOC with Martini, Derkack, Hayes and Ogbole in starting roles or playing 10 to 20 minutes a game with little from Acuff. But Derkack, Martini and Ogbole playing too many minutes (Princeton, Columbia etc) and no minutes for Grant and Dortch.
B1G slate in January with suddenly no Dylan Harper, change in roles for Dylan Grant and Lathan starting with an overloaded workload of Ace Bailey and not sure what plan was for Martini, Grant or Derkack.
B1G slate in February with recovering Dylan Harper, expanded roles for Dylan Grant, reducing role for Derkack and Hayes, much better roles off bench for Martini while starting Lathan and Dylan Grant and some minutes for Bryce Dortch...
Sunday's game is essentially the 6th different version of RU in 28 games, with now an idea of what Grant, Dortch and Ogbole can do, while getting a defined role off the bench for JMike, Martini and Acuff.
With the reduction in turnovers from Derkack not playing as much and now with 2 extra lengthy defenders in Dortch and Ogbole, RU is finally set with options that are best suited for all of the players. Dortch specifically can be used properly in the Derkack role, where he can handle a pass and make a pass AND dive for a layup or dunk, instead of asking Derkack to drive into traffic against bigger players.
More importantly, Ogbole can absorb the contact against a bigger center, instead of asking Dortch to do so.
I have no real way of trying to determine what team is better on offense or defense based on solely Ace and Dylan, there are WAY too many variables mentioned above that make the lineup, opponents and experience of freshman are all different now in late February than late November.
OOC with Martini, Derkack, Hayes and Ogbole in starting roles or playing 10 to 20 minutes a game with little from Acuff. But competition wasn't strong.....
OOC mixed with 2 B1G games with Martini, Derkack, Hayes and Ogbole in starting roles or playing 10 to 20 minutes a game with little from Acuff. Competition much stronger or talented and no contributions from other 2 freshman (Grant and Dortch)
OOC with Martini, Derkack, Hayes and Ogbole in starting roles or playing 10 to 20 minutes a game with little from Acuff. But Derkack, Martini and Ogbole playing too many minutes (Princeton, Columbia etc) and no minutes for Grant and Dortch.
B1G slate in January with suddenly no Dylan Harper, change in roles for Dylan Grant and Lathan starting with an overloaded workload of Ace Bailey and not sure what plan was for Martini, Grant or Derkack.
B1G slate in February with recovering Dylan Harper, expanded roles for Dylan Grant, reducing role for Derkack and Hayes, much better roles off bench for Martini while starting Lathan and Dylan Grant and some minutes for Bryce Dortch...
Sunday's game is essentially the 6th different version of RU in 28 games, with now an idea of what Grant, Dortch and Ogbole can do, while getting a defined role off the bench for JMike, Martini and Acuff.
With the reduction in turnovers from Derkack not playing as much and now with 2 extra lengthy defenders in Dortch and Ogbole, RU is finally set with options that are best suited for all of the players. Dortch specifically can be used properly in the Derkack role, where he can handle a pass and make a pass AND dive for a layup or dunk, instead of asking Derkack to drive into traffic against bigger players.
More importantly, Ogbole can absorb the contact against a bigger center, instead of asking Dortch to do so.
I have no real way of trying to determine what team is better on offense or defense based on solely Ace and Dylan, there are WAY too many variables mentioned above that make the lineup, opponents and experience of freshman are all different now in late February than late November.
Easy for Pitino to say when he has a multi millionaire giving a blank check for any recruit Pitino wants
I could quibble here or there with this post, but GENERALLY I think you’re correct in terms of the different versions of this team that we have seen over the course of the year.
Boiling it down — Pike probably made a mistake in giving Derkack, Hayes, and Martini so many minutes in November and December, and in not playing at least Grant more minutes. Combine that with Ace getting his sea legs in college ball, and Pike trying to incorporate 7 new players (9 minus Grant and Dortch, who he was keeping on the bench), and you have a mess in the first 10 games.
Just when it looked like things were SOMEWHAT coming together (against Columbia), the very next game Dylan goes down with the flu and can’t play at Indiana. That illness derailed whatever progress had been made up to that point.
I won’t summarize what ensued thereafter, but the bottom line is that a combination of factors has led to 14-14, and “injuries/illnesses to Ace and Dylan” stand equal with “poorly constructed supporting cast” and “questionable coaching decisions” as the main culprits.
Pikiell has some responsibility because he recruited the players and had 7 months to get them prepared for competition.Duke has 3 freshmen starting and they are ranked number two in the national rankings.In contrast Rutgers might not even have a winning record at the end of the season.Somebody has to be held responsible for the disappointing results.
Is waiting on Grant really that big of deal? After the early jolt, he's pretty much fallen back to a decent rebounding terrible defending mediocre player thus far. Down to 22% from three. Not sure how to quantity his contributions as much of it has come at the same time we lost Ogbole's. Did he just replace those? For a freshman, love to see anything he gives us. But, other than on occasion, has he been a consistent factor toward winning? IDK.
Healthy Dylan means at least 16-12, 9-8 at this point in my view. Still a disappointment relative to what we were all hoping for this year but still on bubble
You are really looking at the worst part and ignoring the good part. Grant hits the boards , he gets tip ins and dunks on the offensive end and can block shots on the defensive end. You look at it and say his production has fallen off but you ignore he is sitting huge chunks of games ( partially because of the emergence of Bryce and other guards taking minutes and going small. Pike sits him 16 minutes and then puts him in for 2-4 minutes is not fair to Dylan to try and analyze his contributions. I listed the things he has done well plus despite the lower 3 point shooting , he can hit a 3 as well. To think you think Manny was giving us Dylan’s offensive production and offensive boards is not based on facts. He is a freshman that gets better the more he plays not the less he plays. Hard to navigate that tightrope of playing and not playing . It would be one thing if he is taken out for a few minutes and put back in but in actuality he is taken out and sits for 10 minutes thereafter then eventually put back in.
Stop. He's sitting long stretches because for every good thing he does there is one and a half bad. Which is to be expected for a freshman.
I'm ecstatic he's playing and getting reps as a freshman.
Yes, he adds more on offense than Ogbole. His best attribute, rebounding, isn't as good as Ogbole, and his block #'s are similar. I'm not trying to analyze anything other than if his contributions have been less meaningful because he's basically had to take Ogboles minutes rather than replace Martini. Had Ogbole stayed healthy, and was coming off bench w Martini, Grant's contributions may have meant more. His 5 and 3 has really only served to replace EO's 4 and 4. It's not a criticism, just a probable fact.
Sometimes it is impossible to discuss with you when you say things are probable fact when they clearly are not. Dylan is not perfect on defense but he gives you a ton more than Manny on offense and until last game Dorsch. If you do not think sitting out 10 minutes at a time can affect your play , you are putting your head in the sand. Anybody that has ever played needs to get a lather going and when it is shut off , it is difficult to turn back on.
Your post does seem like a bad criticism but you probably don’t see it as you only see what you want to see.
Pike the GM absolutely!!!!
Not debating that.
Blaming Pike for the bad D and lack of hustle….blaming Pike the GM, but the players (including Ace and Dylan) own this.
USC missed 35 shots and Harper and Bailey rebonded 2 of them.
Sitting for long stretches happens to everyone.
Is Dylans 5 points per a big leap from EO's 4? Dylan has the capability of becoming a much bigger offensive contributor than EO. I'm not making a comp of them as players. All I'm saying is, for the most part, what he's done is mimic EOs stat #'s, granted in a different way.
He's scored 4 a game since his 19 point breakout. He has 2 rebounds in his last 40 minutes played, 10 in his last four games played.
I see a guy I'm completely happy with and can also be objective about.
are you giving us the healthy version that is taking the ball to the basket when he has a chance. Not the one when healthy went to 2-3 games where he had low energy?
We could have said the same with Cliff last year....we had games when he was in to it playing with high energy and games where it looked like 2 hours ago he finished his entire easter basket
plus Dylan and Ace not being as good of a college basketball players as people think. They are wonderful offensive players, but defense is 50% of the game.
We are more 14-14 because we are a 14-14 team.
Illinois pounding Iowa tonight. How did we lose to Iowa (at home!) with Dylan and Ace healthy?
Lazy effort inexcusably bad.
RU also took two top 10 teams to the final minute on a neutral site in Vegas.. so yes, if they stayed healthy we would probably be in the projected tournament field now.. but also, none of the teams in the BTT are as good as Alabama or Texas A&M (MSU maybe close) so Rutgers is capable of making a run on a neutral court. in BTT
@bac2therac What stage does this thinking fall under...BARGAINING or DENIAL. I am thinking more BARGAINING than DENIAL but I think it hits both buckets.
Its denial. Rutgers at FULL strength lost to Princeton, Kennesaw State and Iowa at home
I think we’d finish at 13-7. Even in the losses with both, conditioning was clearly a factor.
Those losses are fair criticisms - and much like Pikes teams in the past, drop too many early games that are bad losses. And I think Pike needs to have more urgency getting ready for those games.
But it’s also hard not to see the team in January was much improved.
Think conditioning was a factor. Ace was a shell of himself.
But a horrible, deflating loss no less.
its a lot of excuses for the season....when it comes down to it, it really wasnt meant to be...a serious of misfires, promise, hope, and bad luck. 14-14 is an accurate reflection
Not exactly . Maybe you recall a 9 point first half lead but maybe not because you only remember the negative. Iowa second half and Oregon were 2 games that Dylan did not take over completely and ACE had off nights. We lost for the reason we have lost almost every game this year except Alabama and Texas A& M , because our defense was atrocious allowing them to shoot 66% in the second half and for some reason Dylan and to a lesser degree ACE could not bail us out. Reasons unknown. Freshman wall? Don’t think so for Dylan as he has rebounded with 34 and 25 points back to back and was just named the Naismith Player of the week. For those who do not know , that is the player of the week in the entire country ., ACE has deferred a lot the last few games and fatigue and the freshman wall seems more logical for him as his rebounding numbers in the last 3-4 games are way down.
We should have buried Iowa coming out of the half but did the exact opposite throwing away balls on inbounds plays and getting 5 second violations. That is on Pike and that is on the players. If lead would have been stretched to 15 , we would have overcome Iowa’s hot second half. Failure was right out of the locker room at half.
they laid an egg...first half was hot shooting by Acuff, Dylan and Ace were no shows...its part of the game, cannot make an excuse..they blew it vs a reeling team who had lost a major starter and had another guy out.
Kennesaw and Princeton were bad losses, no doubt. But — and I’ve said this often this year — we were always going to struggle early on as Pike incorporated 9 new players and as our star freshmen (especially Ace) acclimated to college basketball.
My theory is that we were just starting to play better when disaster struck with Dylan’s flu and then ankle.
This team would not have been a top 5 Big Ten team. The defense just has not been good. But we certainly would have been firmly on the bubble were it not for going 1-7 in the Dylan/Ace unhealthy games.
(Side note - Iowa was a bad loss no doubt, and occurred when Ace and Dylan were both healthy. But EVERY team throws up stinkers, and we don’t know how that game would’ve played out if we were 15-10 (7-6) and still driving for an at-large bid).
My theory is that we were just starting to play better when disaster struck with Dylan’s flu and then ankle.
This team would not have been a top 5 Big Ten team. The defense just has not been good. But we certainly would have been firmly on the bubble were it not for going 1-7 in the Dylan/Ace unhealthy games.
(Side note - Iowa was a bad loss no doubt, and occurred when Ace and Dylan were both healthy. But EVERY team throws up stinkers, and we don’t know how that game would’ve played out if we were 15-10 (7-6) and still driving for an at-large bid).
How come Kennesaw didn't struggle with their new parts
The Iowa excuse is another excuse
No one is excusing that disaster man. Kennesaw was a complete WTF - but then they go on the road and hang with two experienced top 12 teams. They’ve been wildly inconsistent.
Flat out, Kennesaw was a bad loss. But to answer your question, it's a lot different playing at home when you're a freshman than playing on the road.
And I didn't make an excuse for the Iowa loss. I just chalked it up to "every team throws up a stinker."
But that's the thing its just one more thing that went wrong with this team. Some bad luck..some bad timing..some self inflicted. Its great the team is 6-3 in Big 10 play all healthy but they were just 7-4 healthy non conference..actually 6-4 with Ace out the first game.
No margins for error beyond their injuries and bad luck
Alot of wins right down to the wire like Nebby/Wash/SHU/ND/PSU
Simpleton. The object is to pick teams that can compete against the top programs in the country. Rutgers can compete with any team in the country. Our defense and its failure doesn’t allow us to win against any top teams in the country.
You only post negatively and you are lost but there are other ways to look at things.
All because of the defensive failures this year that we have spoken about over and over again. The disappointment is it has not gotten appreciably better 28 games in.
The goal is to pick the best, deserving teams. It’s the same goal every year. The committee missed sometimes but let me tell you something, Rutgers ain’t one of those teams. Call me a simpleton but youre a fool with your head in the sand. All the “were the best and competitive with anyone if this and but that” is just stupid. Those players were healthy v Kennesaw, Princeton and Iowa. Now if we said “Ace and Dylan were healthy AND we outscored the other team” then we win. Sure. But you don’t know what you’re getting one night after the next. That’s why we play the games and we didn’t win 100% where those two were healthy. Maybe they didn’t get enough sleep? Maybe they’re thinking about problems with their girlfriend? Maybe instead of watching film they were playing COD (ala Kyler Murray). You got what you got and were 14-14. You simply can’t fantasy land and excuse away 14 losses. Or even just the ones when they both were healthy. And I don’t post only negative stuff, when warranted I post positive stuff. The last three years haven’t been very positive. At least I’m not you walking around with rose colored glasses on big enough to fit on king kongs head.
Already a thread on this, lol. Just kidding, but when I posted a similar thread a few weeks ago, we were 3-1 in the B1G with a healthy Ace/Dylan (and 2-0 with those guys healthy, plus Grant playing) and now we're up to 6-3 on that count, as you note (and 5-2 with those guys healthy + Grant).
Many in both threads have somewhat dismissed these observations, but 6-3 with DH/AB vs. 1-7 without both is a stark difference and for people to think that we might not have at least a somewhat better record if not for their absences is a bit naive, IMO. And I threw Grant in there in my analysis, since I think we also might've done better against KS and PU if Grant had been playing regularly - I postulated we might be 17-11/9-8 if we had all 3 playing and healthy, although we'll never know. None of this excuses not having enough talent here to weather such absences, but the data are the data.
the point I made was that they are capable of beating any team in the Big Ten on a neutral floor based on the showing in Vegas.. They had a bad half at Kennesaw, and Princeton is a team that can notoriously cause any team fits..
Iowa was a coaching mistake. They should have started the 2nd half with the lineup that finished the first.
those who have already given up on the season should not even be on this board now..
On a different note, how is UNC even close to the bubble? Their metrics are horrible..
Iowa was a coaching mistake. They should have started the 2nd half with the lineup that finished the first.
those who have already given up on the season should not even be on this board now..
On a different note, how is UNC even close to the bubble? Their metrics are horrible..
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