Why does the big ten keep failing in march?

[anon_0k9zlfz6lz9oy]

Had this discussion with some big east friends this week and they brought up some interesting points and curious to hear your opinions.

Their main premise was that the big ten conference as a whole is very long, big, tough and physical teams. And if youre not long big tough and physical youll get bullied in conference play. However once you get to march its more quick, fast and teams that play with pace.

Their points kinda made sense to me. What do you think?

 

[kt124]

lack of prolific scoring

 

[Mbash93]

Had this discussion with some big east friends this week and they brought up some interesting points and curious to hear your opinions.

Their main premise was that the big ten conference as a whole is very long, big, tough and physical teams. And if youre not long big tough and physical youll get bullied in conference play. However once you get to march its more quick, fast and teams that play with pace.

Their points kinda made sense to me. What do you think?

It's exactly that. Big Ten teams are built to bang and play the game in the half court. While SEC/Pac 12 and even some schools in the ACC are built more for the up tempo game with athletes everywhere.

My buddy (ND Fan) said he thinks RU is one of the few B10 teams that could make a deep run because we are built more like the southern schools with athletes, but do have some B10 qualities to our team.

I trust B10 teams in the tourney if the game is low scoring, but if it gets up and down most B10 teams can't compete.

 

[bethlehemfan]

Had this discussion with some big east friends this week and they brought up some interesting points and curious to hear your opinions.

Their main premise was that the big ten conference as a whole is very long, big, tough and physical teams. And if youre not long big tough and physical youll get bullied in conference play. However once you get to march its more quick, fast and teams that play with pace.

Their points kinda made sense to me. What do you think?

I think big ten refs let people get away with murder in conference play and that doesn’t happen in the tourney as much. I would also say in general there have not been the super outstanding guards that really help you advance deep.

 

[AreYouNUTS]

Had this discussion with some big east friends this week and they brought up some interesting points and curious to hear your opinions.

Their main premise was that the big ten conference as a whole is very long, big, tough and physical teams. And if youre not long big tough and physical youll get bullied in conference play. However once you get to march its more quick, fast and teams that play with pace.

Their points kinda made sense to me. What do you think?

This. We beat each other up during conference play.

 

[RutgHoops]

Officiating. The B1G is BY FAR the worst officiated conference in college basketball. Every conference has its share of controversy, but the B1G seems to have an officiating disaster three times a week. As soon as we get in to NCAAT play and are exposed to a (relatively) consistent whistle B1G teams can't adjust.

 

[Scangg]

Yea, I think that's what most people think the reason is and as was said, the tournament is usually guard dominated

 

[superfan01]

Because people give too much credit and meaning to March madness. It's one 40 minute game. Not even the length of a full nba game to decide the champion.

Imagine if the NBA played a 3 qtr best of 1 championship. The best teams would hardly win.

NCAA tourney is much more random then people want to believe.

 

[Mr_Twister]

So it’s not coaching?

 

[anon_0k9zlfz6lz9oy]

Officiating. The B1G is BY FAR the worst officiated conference in college basketball. Every conference has its share of controversy, but the B1G seems to have an officiating disaster three times a week. As soon as we get in to NCAAT play and are exposed to a (relatively) consistent whistle B1G teams can't adjust.

this was a point I read about as well. Whistles arent consistent in B1G and sometimes the teams in our conference play a brand of bball that other refs around the country blow the whistle on for what we think is good D

 

[anon_0k9zlfz6lz9oy]

Because people give too much credit and meaning to March madness. It's one 40 minute game. Not even the length of a full nba game to decide the champion.

Imagine if the NBA played a 3 qtr best of 1 championship. The best teams would hardly win.

NCAA tourney is much more random then people want to believe.

I get it if it was one season but a sample size over 20 years is fair to judge off

 

[Knight Owl]

Because people give too much credit and meaning to March madness. It's one 40 minute game. Not even the length of a full nba game to decide the champion.

Imagine if the NBA played a 3 qtr best of 1 championship. The best teams would hardly win.

NCAA tourney is much more random then people want to believe.

There’s a lot of truth to that…but the upsets usually wind up benefitting another region where a blue blood (at least a top 4 regional seed usually) is able to “hold serve” until the final four. No team from the bottom 50% of the brackets has ever won it all.

 

[Scangg]

I get it if it was one season but a sample size over 20 years is fair to judge off

We have had 6 runner ups over that time so it's not like teams haven't gotten close.

I wouldn't say the B1G has struggled over the last 20 years just bc they didn't have a champion. Did the Big East do well when Nova won? Not necessarily. It just means 1 team in the conference did which doesn't have an impact on the rest of the conference's performance

 

[robjknight]

As mentioned in another thread a week ago, the B1G tournament beats up teams right up to the Sunday when pairings are announced. Playing 3-4 games in 3-4 days wears out some teams. Conference needs to adjust so teams have some more rest before March madness begins.

 

[S_Janowski]

It's exactly that. Big Ten teams are built to bang and play the game in the half court. While SEC/Pac 12 and even some schools in the ACC are built more for the up tempo game with athletes everywhere.

My buddy (ND Fan) said he thinks RU is one of the few B10 teams that could make a deep run because we are built more like the southern schools with athletes, but do have some B10 qualities to our team.

I trust B10 teams in the tourney if the game is low scoring, but if it gets up and down most B10 teams can't compete.

We have athletes, but our style of play will make it harder for a deep run imo.

We can clearly go up against any team in the nation on any given night, but exert so much energy on defense and still struggle offensively at times that a deep run would take a toll on the team.

Our recruiting strategy/targets is changing though so we should be better equipped for a deep run in 2-3 years.

 

[RuSnp]

There’s a lot of truth to that…but the upsets usually wind up benefitting another region where a blue blood (at least a top 4 regional seed usually) is able to “hold serve” until the final four. No team from the bottom 50% of the brackets has ever won it all.

How many BIG teams have finished 2nd in the tourney in the last 20 years with all our supposed underperformance? Without looking it up BIG had a great OSU team that ran against a generational Florida, Michigan, Wisconsin, and you had MSU and Maryland (ACC then but still) winning it all. That feels like a conference that is actually pretty strong across the board.

Forgot Indiana and that undefeated Illinois team.

Looked it up... and Mich finished runnerup to Nova again and MSU finished 2nd too. Half the conference has reached the title game over the last 20 years give or take. Who else can say that? ACC maybe?

 

[Nycrusupporter]

There are a lot of reasons.

-First and foremost, there is a lot of luck involved in winning the Tourament. Basketball is not a game that lends itself to a single elimination tournament to determine a champion, almost anything can happen in individual games.

-A tough Big 10 conference tournament can blow out a lot of teams right before March Madness.

-Lots of system coaches in the Big 10 who are predictable and have trouble adapting when teams have figured out how to attack them.

-Big, physical Big 10 teams have trouble with faster uptempo teams.

-Big 10 teams don’t get many Top 15 recruits. The teams that do tend struggle early relying on Freshmen, but come together later in the year to make runs in the Tourament.

 

[pmvon]

Had this discussion with some big east friends this week and they brought up some interesting points and curious to hear your opinions.

Their main premise was that the big ten conference as a whole is very long, big, tough and physical teams. And if youre not long big tough and physical youll get bullied in conference play. However once you get to march its more quick, fast and teams that play with pace.

Their points kinda made sense to me. What do you think?

Literally had this conversation today with and friend and UConn fan. He says no doubt the BIG is the deepest conference but has lacked that elite team. So plenty of showing up but no one taking the prize.

 

[G- RUnit]

Officiating. The B1G is BY FAR the worst officiated conference in college basketball. Every conference has its share of controversy, but the B1G seems to have an officiating disaster three times a week. As soon as we get in to NCAAT play and are exposed to a (relatively) consistent whistle B1G teams

1. This is a big one!!!!! Maybe the most important.
2. Style of play.
3. 20 League Games
4. Last Championship Decided. Least rest.

 

[Joey Bags]

Iowa’s offensive style is best suited for tourney play.

Go watch a Big East or Big 12 game, it’s a lot of dudes slashing and getting to the rim and drawing fouls. There’s no Paul Mulcahy style tip toeing around the paint to get space and a shot. It’s hard, fast drives and kicks for 3.

 

[fluoxetine]

The premise of this thread should not be taken for granted. I hear people make this argument based on basically the 2020-21 season and a lack of championships for a while. The lack of championships really isn’t that unlikely just by random luck so unless someone does more than hand waving to actually prove the Big Ten has significantly underperformed in the tournament relative to the regular season over a sustained period my answer is going to be:
It’s random variance.

 

[G- RUnit]

Iowa’s offensive style is best suited for tourney play.

Go watch a Big East or Big 12 game, it’s a lot of dudes slashing and getting to the rim and drawing fouls. There’s no Paul Mulcahy style tip toeing around the paint to get space and a shot. It’s hard, fast drives and kicks for 3.

Yet curiously Iowa has had some major flame outs not playing enough D if shots aren’t falling.

 

[bac2therac]

Because people give too much credit and meaning to March madness. It's one 40 minute game. Not even the length of a full nba game to decide the champion.

Imagine if the NBA played a 3 qtr best of 1 championship. The best teams would hardly win.

NCAA tourney is much more random then people want to believe.

This this this

Luck of draw and getting hot or not at the right moment

 

[G- RUnit]

This this this

Luck of draw and getting hot or not at the right moment

I think most people agree with that. To be devil’s advocate though, when you go 22 years without one it may indeed be more than luck of the draw or variance.

 

[Mr_Twister]

This this this

Luck of draw and getting hot or not at the right moment

Conclusion: Big Ten has not been very lucky all these years?

 

[bac2therac]

There was no excuse for Purdue last year

Big 10 play had nothing to do with them being dispatched like that

 

[G- RUnit]

Or maybe everything?!

22 years is a long time.

B1G is a grind and most conference games.

Most time changes and travel? Coldest weather/travel?

Last Championship decided.

Officiating

Perfect Storm

 

[anon_0k9zlfz6lz9oy]

We have athletes, but our style of play will make it harder for a deep run imo.

We can clearly go up against any team in the nation on any given night, but exert so much energy on defense and still struggle offensively at times that a deep run would take a toll on the team.

Our recruiting strategy/targets is changing though so we should be better equipped for a deep run in 2-3 years.

The bolded nails it. Our recruiting strategy is changing to adjust, future is bright

 

[G- RUnit]

There was no excuse for Purdue last year

Big 10 play had nothing to do with them being dispatched like that

Kentucky an even bigger favorite was dispatched by the same.

 

[Scangg]

The bolded nails it. Our recruiting strategy is changing to adjust, future is bright

I brought this up at the very end of the last ask the experts. It seems Pike is going for smaller quicker guards with Simpson Davis and Warren. Griffiths is an offensive stud. Ndogo is a big with a 3 point shot and perimeter skills to go with Chol

Remember Pike said the brand will be winning. He has won his league as a coach with the best offensive and also as the defensive team in the league before. He may be better suited at making adjustments and more flexible than some think

I see us transitioning into a more fast paced run and gun offense with perimeter shooters while ideally maintaining high level defense

 

[kcg88]

85% sample size randomness
15% not recruiting NBA talent like the top of the ACC and SEC (and Kansas)

The PAC 12 drought is longer but nobody ever talks about that.

 

[Plum Street]

Iowa’s offensive style is best suited for tourney play.

Go watch a Big East or Big 12 game, it’s a lot of dudes slashing and getting to the rim and drawing fouls. There’s no Paul Mulcahy style tip toeing around the paint to get space and a shot. It’s hard, fast drives and kicks for 3.

Whaaat? Iowa always underperforms in the tourney . They got knocked out by a 13 seed last year . They shot their load in the BIG tourney

 

[kcg88]

So the officiating is not a problem for Indiana, Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, and Wisconsin in terms of getting to Final Fours but it DOES prevent them from winning titles? That makes no sense.

 

[G- RUnit]

So the officiating is not a problem for Indiana, Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, and Wisconsin in terms of getting to Final Fours but it DOES prevent them from winning titles? That makes no sense.

Or they as blue bloods always get the benefit of the doubt of (ridiculous) officiating in league games and tourney championships but when they play other blue bloods, Carolina, Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, Nova, etc, that advantage goes away and they don’t win for 22 years. Certainly food for thought and can’t be brushed away. Run out of gas? All legitimate considerations.

Once you go 22 years without, it’s not merely variables or luck. It’s time to look in the mirror.

 

[BigEastPhil]

My thoughts:

- Athleticism of conference lags behind other conferences. Other conferences seem to have more volume of athletes who can endlessly run up and down court and play above the rim

- Overall style of conference is too slow / too half court and too physical.

- I also tend to feel that recruiting lags behind other conferences and conference rarely gets one and done players

- League is too big man oriented and not guard oriented.

I also feel that conference is down this year so that being said we ll get 4 teams in sweet 16. 🤔

 

[Plum Street]

2021 was just weird. BIG teams were in Indy for a long time , no fans etc. throw that out.
2022 was terrible , highlighted by the purdue loss to St. Peter’s.
2018 and 2019 we had teams in final four.

The league beats each other up all season . Games are officiated differently in the tournament. It’s certainly the most fun conference in the regular season with incredible atmospheres

 

[G- RUnit]

My thoughts:

- Athleticism of conference lags behind other conferences. Other conferences seem to have more volume of athletes who can endlessly run up and down court

- Overall style of conference is too slow / too half court and too physical.

- I also tend to feel that recruiting lags behind other conferences and conference rarely gets one and done players

- League is too big man oriented and not guard oriented.

I also feel that conference is down this year so that being said we ll get 4 teams in sweet 16. 🤔

Lol! Exactly what will happen! We will hear how Pac 12 is so weak and the bubble is weakest in years and then a bubble team will make an incredible run, UCLA will make the final four, RU v ND will be the best game in years….so we will get 4 teams in!

 

[fluoxetine]

22 years is a long time.

22 years.

Once you go 22 years without, it’s not merely variables or luck. It’s time to look in the mirror.

This is just dumb. Big Ten has a ~8% chance (this is from Bart's model. You can quibble with the exact number.. it won't change the point a lot) at the title this year. Obviously this will be different year to year but missing an 8% shot 22 times in a row is a 16% chance. It's not remarkable in the slightest.

 

[fluoxetine]

Less remarkable that Cliff hitting 4 consecutive FTs

TiMe To LoOk In ThE mIrRoR

 

[RUskoolie]

When I watched us play Notre Dame in person, they just looked very quick and athletic. I think the B1G is a lot of physical, slow, slogs. I think it's why we struggled vs Temple Miami and Hall. Different type of game.

Almost like playing B12 schools in football.