The 2nd two quotes R dead on-the first not so. Seton Hall has had a few great teams during the past 25 years (start of Rutgers' "problems").. A few other years they were good or decent. The rest of those years they weren't good at all-it just appears that way because for the most part Rutgers wasn't so good and the program had many problems. Relative to Rutgers Seton Hall seemed great.
The 2nd two quotes R dead on-the first not so. Seton Hall has had a few great teams during the past 25 years (start of Rutgers' "problems").. A few other years they were good or decent. The rest of those years they weren't good at all-it just appears that way because for the most part Rutgers wasn't so good and the program had many problems. Relative to Rutgers Seton Hall seemed great.
Entirely possible for both statements to be correct. Run the numbers. Or let's explore by taking it to the extreme.
If you had ten classes that all students had to take, it would still only be ten classes, but could account for 100,000 students in classes. And then you could have 1000 classes with under 5 students, but it would still only be fewer than 5000 students in them.
FWIW, I had a half dozen classes at Princeton with over 100 students in them (Econ 101, Music 101, really popular religion course, Sociology 101, etc.). And that was back when Princeton only had 3400 undergrads total (my first year there was the last year of PU being all male, and last year of single wing football).
Somebody clue him in on the taxpayers. We just had the discussion about the FDU coach making that statement.
Comparing RU to Seton Hall is NOT a "silly comparison"-it's VERY SERIOUS. Much reputation and money is at stake. Rutgers is directly competing against Seton Hall.
Your experience is oft the exception. Yes I had smaller classes at RU-as I went to my major and took a 5th year out because the huge science and weed out classes (400 of my 800 Cook Class was pre med and pre vet) that experience has caused damage to this day (I would rate my undergrads studies for the most part-a disaster.
Rutgers' long standing large impersonal reputation(.i.e. "The RU Screw") has cause trouble to this day and it was only compounded by Bannon, Hill Jr. and Rice. It is easily used against Rutgers-and it rings home to recruits from smaller, oft catholic schools.
I have discussed the other factors that have affected Rutgers above-#1 being exposure like you mentioned .Rutgers athletics has had many top scholar athletes who DO consider academics. Rob Hodgeson (hoops) and Randall Pinkett ("The Apprentice" winner, CEO, yadaa) come to mind. APR/graduation rate is also a factor considered by many athletes/parents.
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Because they won the Big East tourney last year and are a top30-40 team. Stick to football man. You are right with some of your point, but basketball is different than football when it comes to recruiting.
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anon_0k9zlfz6lz9oy
Guest
What about when they brought in whitehead, carrington, delgado and rodriguez? What exactly did seton hall have going for it? They hadnt made the tourney in 10 years. And yes, I know they hired whiteheads coach at SHU
That's 2 years out of the last 25 Seton Hall was great (also 2000 and there is plenty of evidence they cheated with THAT team-Andrew Gaze, Luther ("Kan''t) Wright, yada) for THAT one. A few others they were good-very good.
Check the record books and learn your history-Rutgers used to beat Seton Hall REGULARLY 1-2 times a year pre Big East. Rutgers (in its unsuccessful attempt to form an all Eastern sports conference DECLINED entry into the Big East 3 times. Seton Hall (traditionally a local commuter catholic college with a not so great reputation) was then granted entry into the Big East in lieu of Rutgers. Then the Big East got an incredible break (Rutgers not so much) with the advent of ESPN and a few years later Big East TV package. Those caught on the outside such as Rutgers- (Pitt and Villanova? were admitted after a bit) had trouble landing the better recruits and from that point onwards ~1982ish-fell by the wayside. Seton Hall's and especially Villanova's rise-also BC-was pretty much directly related to Rutgers falling by the wayside-BEFORE any of the 3 HORRENDOUS damaging coaching choices made by top RU brass.
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oh JHC I know I'm going to invite the SHOE trolls but oh well it's our fracking board.
Look, are there people who would prefer to go to SHOE over RU? of course.
Are there people who would rather drive a Hyundai over a Mercedes? of course
But lets stop being PC. By most objective measures RU is a better school than SHOE. PERIOD . I don't want to hear what qualities they have. Line 'em up side by side, we win--by a lot.
Athletics? Of course their bball is better than us. Again , objectively who hasn't? There are about 100 mid majors who have had better success than us in bball in the last 25 years. But last years very good team aside--and they were VERY good--it's not like they've been lighting the bball world on fire either. Sure they've made the Dance more than us--again who hasn't? But they aren't some yearly fixture either
Bottom line is they are recruiting better players than us because we have sucked the big one now for a long time.
But the OP's point is well taken.
Look, are there people who would prefer to go to SHOE over RU? of course.
Are there people who would rather drive a Hyundai over a Mercedes? of course
But lets stop being PC. By most objective measures RU is a better school than SHOE. PERIOD . I don't want to hear what qualities they have. Line 'em up side by side, we win--by a lot.
Athletics? Of course their bball is better than us. Again , objectively who hasn't? There are about 100 mid majors who have had better success than us in bball in the last 25 years. But last years very good team aside--and they were VERY good--it's not like they've been lighting the bball world on fire either. Sure they've made the Dance more than us--again who hasn't? But they aren't some yearly fixture either
Bottom line is they are recruiting better players than us because we have sucked the big one now for a long time.
But the OP's point is well taken.
Seton Hall has overall been a respectable program for years. Yes, there was a time when they were in the gutter with us in the Big East, but it's all about selling your program. They don't have football. So, they probably sell the fact that basketball get more financial support than any other team. For a teenager who wants to make it to the NBA, that's good to hear. Not everything is as logical as it may seem. I won't say your original points are bad, because I used to wonder the same thing. But Seton Hall is a basketball school. We also haven't made improvements to the RAC. The Hall might point that out and say that's because we went all in with football and forgot about our bball team the past few years. Hobbs is now trying to change that perception. Hopefully no one can recruit negatively against us when it comes to supporting the program.
Im not trying to bash RU, but did you watch the Big East final last year? He asked why would anyone consider Seton Hall over RU? I know RU used to beat Hall 1-2 times a year, but recruits don't care about history. Jesus, don't get so defensive. Your comment is completely irrelevant to why a recruit would want to go to RU or Seton Hall. Check the record books, we lost by a thousand to them last year. Maybe that's why Miles Powell considered them over us. Hopefully Pike changes that. Btw, as for it only being 2 years out of the last 25, that's all that matters when it comes to recruiting. Players who are 17 were 1 in the year 2000. So, you mentioned a lot of irrelevant history in your post.
Since we last went to the NCAA tournament Seton Hall has gone 7 times, won 2 Big East conference tournaments and 2 regular season championships. That could have something to do with it.
If Providence is local, then Penn State is local.
Point taken about current strength at top of big east, but I just think they will have a hard time keeping it going long term.
Seton Hall is a "basketball" school only due to Rutgers' failings. How many out there outside of Seton hall fans and alum think of "Seton Hall" as a basketball school when such is mentioned. I think of Kentucky, Dook and my North Carolina (the later two with consistently top 10-20 academic ratings also.
Ah, understood. I became a tour guide in the Summer of 2016, and I know we have revamped our tours significantly. No more walking tours, but added places where we walk off the bus.
The numbers from @RC1978 are just about spot on.
We say 64% 30 students or less, 7% 100 students or more. And speaking from experience, having those huge lecture classes (I've had one or two) is mitigated by sitting in the first few rows. All of my professors know my first name, because I don't sit in the middle of a large lecture hall, I answer/ask questions, go to office hours, etc. The class is only as big as you let it be.
Exactly, they're a basketball school due to Rutgers' failing. So when comparing RU to SHU the past few year, a top recruit like Miles Powel will choose SHU. I never compared them to Kentucky, Duke, UNC, etc. Nor would I compare them to those schools. But op asked about SHU vs RU? And in the past few years SHU has the upper hand. I'm an RU alumn. I'm not bashing RU. Why is this so hard to understand? Again, I think Pike will change that.
Well said but of course I'm agreeing with you agreeing with me.
Here's some reverse logic why I (and else) would have attended Seton Hall over RU-specifically that ONE COMPETES WITH ONES FELLOW STUDENTS AND IN SITUATIONS WHERE THE GPA IS BASICALLY AND END ALL (SEE LAW SCHOOL ADMISSION ALONG WITH THE TOUGH LSATS) YOU WANT TO MILK YOUR GPA.
My then younger neighbor asked me his senior year of high school about the best way
to get into law school. I think at that point he'd been rejected by both my UNC and Rutgers as well as my sister's UVA. I think he has been accepted by Seton Hall.
I told him go to Seton Hall and be active in clubs, yada.-Seton Hall was the best thing that had even happened to him because his competiton would be less in West Orange and all law school admission is (despite what anyone says) is a combination of one's GPA (no matter the major) and LSAT score handled by the Law school data Assembly Service (LSDAS). I got the RU scr*w because for my 1st 2 years I was pushed into taking a weed out pre -med class by my self interested advisor. . I was a below average student though against many future physicians and vets. I brought my GPA up from a 2.1 to 3.2 after my sophomore (really tough to do) with multiple deans list semesters and honors society admission-but the damage for law school when I decided 15 years later-was done. I was not a test taker, may well suffer from ADHD, and experienced many issues with each administration of the LSAT including the sudden and pending death of my mother RIP (best score) and a whole new LSAT. I'll never forget my pre law roommate so bored with his easy philosophy curriculum that he transferred to Hawaii Manoa for a year, At the same time I was studying 100+ hours a week. And oh by the way there was a programming error I discovered 15 years after attending Cook that affected thousands of GPAS-Deans who were J*erks while I was there didn't care. Laws schools saw what they thought was me lying on an application and coincidentally I didn't get in to those law schools.
Meanwhile my inferior Seton Hall neighbor did what I said, I assume got decent LSAT scores and was accepted into law school. Like I had told him 4-5 years earlier he'd be in law school via Seton Hall way before I'd get in based on what happened to me at RU.
The last I heard DR was a prof at Seton Hall law school-just like I said I learned the hard way from RU "how to play the game". That's why you attend Seton Hall over RU.
Gonna give you your milestone 1000th "like".
The fact you think Andrew Gaze and Luther Wright were on the 2000 team shows you don't know what you're talking about
Providence to a much lesser extent is a "safe mind, safe body" school for those NJ area students who are too ch*cken sh*t to attend RU based on what they heard. Probably go there because they can't get into the "higher rated" ch*ckensh*t schools Villanova and BC.
NONE OF THESE SCHOOLS were rated higher than RU or were better than RU in hoops (Villanova may have been close in hoops) pre decimation of our Basketball program in the mid-80s. The rise of these schools is correlated with the drop in RU's reputation and after the 1980's-and entrance into the Big East.
Before BC had that good foot ball team or two with Flutie (can't even have peace in the holiday season-he's calling the Jets game now)-and that Hail Mary pass BC was NOT a tougher admission than RU.
Providence wasn't even on the map until Pitino put them there. I assume he recruited that Final 8?/4 team with Eric Murdock who snubbed RU out of my hometown Bridgewater West. Of course the highly paid Imb*cles who were RUnnng the athletic department put Murdock on staff despite most fans thinking better of it. Like most cases the Rutgers fans were correct.
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No it wasn't 2000. I'm not a hoops expert of portend to be. However both Gazes' and Wright's "tenure" at Seton Hall are well known. Frankly they are even an insult to the reputation Seton had during my MBA when (in market research class) one of my classmates polled high schools seniors on the reputations of Jersey schools. Seton Hall came out at the bottom-even below some county colleges. That's high school seniors-not Rutgers fans or myself.
Oh yeah-Wright's "senior" year was the year my Tarheels won it all-like they do in a sport or two-every year. Kudos to Wright though-(he didn't belong in any college) but he did a very nice job vs Carolina at the Meadowlands that year. I was there.
Also I don't want to belittle Wright's mental issues but I think there was more at stake than being "bipolar". Lots who are bipolar (including my sister and UNC classmate/projectmate for two) both got drunk (assumption re sister) cause their problems to be worse. Cost my sister her job at Merck and my UNC classmate two years off from UNC.
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Check my posts. I:
1) My comments R DEAD ON. You must be reading the wrong post-or not all of my posts. I gave a big list in another thread. On top of the list is "EXPOSURE". This isn't my opinion-it was told to me and the Court Club Executive Committee. by then HEAD COACH Bob Wenzel.
2) I said nothing of the sort that Seton Hall wasn't the better team-or "program" at this point (though that's a debatable term). Before this year I can easily see why recruits as of late are chosing Seton Hall-or any other school-have chosen that school over Rutgers (at least from the end of Gary waters tenure forward-that's many years).
3) I never said both programs can be good at once .However with the relatively sudden hiring of Pikiell-and the new facilities I think recruits will take notice (if you took Sociology look up the "Hawthorne Effect"). Though perhaps a trickle at first (and limited scholarships) I think starting with the 2018 class you will notice Rutgers visibly cutting into Seton Hall's and then (later on perhaps) Villanova's local recruiting (though perhaps a bit like Penn State once affected by RU they will have more of an ability to recruit nationally). I DO think the gap between RU and both schools will decrease if not significantly within 3-5 years (Seton Hall sooner).
4) I believe the thread asks why choose Seton Hall over RU? I gave a perfect example-lesser academic competiton. I gave a personal example but it also applies to players. Many basketball players (not all by any means) vs other athletes and students tend to have professional dreams and don't care about academics. At worse it can be like my UNC (not unlike many other schools) where there were no show classes en masse for the players (by the way plenty of stories from most who have gone to college about professors who didn't want to teach-or told students about the required work-and didn't care if the students showed for most classes).
If an athlete wants to remain eligible they certainly don't want to be at Harvard if they aren't qualified. Ditto pre-med at Cook College or Engineering. Seton Hall is not a pre-Med or Engineering factory like RU. And while many top students land/end up at Rutgers due to a lack of finances at Seton Hall many wind up because they can't get into other schools such as RU (I'm sure there are plenty of smart students who want to remain local and go to Seton Hall for that reason. Ditto RU). The bottom line for athletes-Seton Hall with its liberal arts type curriculum is what many athletes need-and theoretically A reason why an athlete might choose Seton Hall over RU (amongst else including coaching, quality of team, and the other usual suspects).
"Like Ratio"
'Ashsaturday 1529/310=4.93 (includes many posts on political board where few likes R given)
"Vegas PJ" (name just happens to be then name of ex-Seton Hall Coach) 9310/16=581.87. (WORST EVER ON THIS BOARD=TROLL).
That's 4.93 to 581.87!
GO BACK TO THE SLOTS WITH THE OLD LADIES (or back to bed dreaming of the past with Carlesimo) THIS IS THE RUTGERS BASKETBALL BOARD!
I have heard from others, including my sister, who graduated from RU and who took the Rutgers tour with her son, that it is severely lacking and poorly thought through. There seems to be a disconnect between the reality of a Rutgers education/experience and what the tour presents to prospective students.
I knew all my professors and they all knew me. College is as big or as small as you make it.
Rah Rah-don't know how we got here but I don't even know how one takes a "good" college tour at RU. I would think I'd need at least two. One for the general landmarks/Downtown NB? and one for my school (Cook). Frankly I graduated pre 86-when pretty much all the colleges had their own curriculum. In 5 years I only had one class on College Ave and one on Livingston. The rest were Cook-Douglass.
Frankly due to a weed-out pre Med pre vet curriculum at Cook there were only a handful of places on those campuses I utilized.
1) Academic buildings on Cook and Douglass (maybe a stressor on Martin hall for a few seconds where Waksman? discovered Streptomyycin?
2) Dorms and apartments
3) ***Douglass Library
4) Cook-Douglass Coop bookstore
5) Dining Halls
6) Post Office/Laundry
7) Cook Gym (one semester of intramural hoops)
8) Cow barns (showed a cow once for Ag Field Day)
***This was pretty much 100% of my time at Cook and I commuted my last 3 years.
9) Douglass Student Center-where I pretty much ate for 4 years
Frankly what campus tours I DID have were a disaster-and I don't even remember the ones I had.
At Franklin and Marshall-where ironically I didn't get into a very competitive pre Med/vet program because of a lack of experience I remember two bad things:
1) The 1st 5 minutes of the tour was taken up by a preppy frat type who wanted to know where he was going to work out. I thought "what a non-serious a**hole. ironically after college (and graduate summer) I became a gym rat.
2) Not sure on the tour or not but I visited the dining hall and was shocked. I spotted the one girl from my high school (kind of hot but no reputation as an egghead from what little I knew) seemingly p*ss drunk or stoned at a cafeteria table with 5-6 guys hovering around her like they were ready to gangbang her when she passed out in 5 minutes. She saw me, seemed to recognize me and was half horrified. Not as much as myself.
3) At Muhlenberg-I remember visiting a dorm where (at 11AM on a Saturday) pretty much 100% of the dorm was asleep hung over. Again, not too favorable an impression
but later my own hours have essentially ruined my life. What woukld have convinced me more than else (and it almost did) was my meeting with the admssions officer-who had attended my high school.
I think mentally I was verbaled to RU from the start and my campus visits helped me confirm Cook at my choice. Turned out I should have researched Vet school admissons better (tough pre college) and avoided RU altogether for pre-Vet studies (bad school as well as state for such). Was pretty much a disaster but I had some good profs in some of my non major classes who wrote me some good recommendations for grad school. During my 5th year (needed to bring up grades and wanted/needed? more business classes) I was accepted at my top two choices Carolina and Penn State. Again disasterous time with the academic program but a beautiful school and college town.
With small schools/one campus/historic schools its much easier. At UNC (Chapel Hill) there were many historical buildings and landmarks-amongst else. A top campus though. Frankly though I don't think I ever visited any sans with my family (not even Carmichael auditorium if only to work out) as it had been essentially replaced by the Dean Smith Center.
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VERY TOUGH in the weed out pre med/pre vet curriculum I had. Hundreds in each class and many brown nosing. Also incidents of TAs propositioning female students, a professor winding up in a girls room overnight and even my not so hot high school classmate was dating the TA to arguably key course as the class ended (and I hate to contemplate the details when I accidently sucked on a Snapple bottle at dinner? with the two and the TA and I simultaneously broke out laughing).
Also unless you had an A or close (very few had) can't really ask for a recommendation. Took elective classes, upper level classes and a 5th year to do that.
As a graduate of both schools (Rutgers undergrad and shu for grad) both schools have a lot to offer and are different schools. Both my degrees have served me well. At the end of the day college is what you make of it. I don't think I could have flipped the process though, but that's just me.
Had a friend who was visiting schools and said that Rutgers process for prospective students was just more difficult. Don't know how that translates into showing a recruit around - my guess is it's probably a lot different. I will say if you are coming from a smaller HS or school district and walk into a Scott Hall during class you are making a decision right then and there that either you are ok with seeing 300+ students in one class or you are running for the hills.
I took those classes as well. I sat in the front row, I talked to the professors after the lectures, and I went to their office hours.
You know our basketball program is trending upwards when we start ripping on the smurfs again. I. Love. It. Hope it continues.
What was more difficult?
Stop. I didn't even respond to your last post. I hit the like button. You over look almost every single one of my posts and went off on a tangent here. To simplify it, players consider SHU over RU because we've gotten our butts kicked the last two years. I don't know why you wrote this post. Again, I didn't respond to your last post. Btw, you're making this way more complicated than it is.
I have heard that also but someone posted above that RU has revamped the tours. I give tours to friends and friends of friends. I start at Old Queens and walk towards Alexander Library then back. The new buildings on CA are awesome. I then take them over to Busch and then Live and do Cook / Douglas last. I make sure to ask them what school that are trying to get in so I can stress that campus that they will spend most of their time.
With the RU tours they do not have the luxury of personalizing their tours. Saying that I can see why kids or parents think we are huge.
I had two kids graduate RU. One in SOE and once freshman year was over he had most classes on one campus. My daughter graduated from Management and Labor Relations and most of her classes were at Livi. I try to explain to prospective students and parents that in reality you can get the feeling of a small campus but all the of the positives of a major research University.
We need more alumni like this. Sends 2 kids to his alma mater & goes out of his way to promote & support Rutgers.
[QUOTE="lwyrup, post: 2526332, member: 5328"
As for SHU getting arenas paid for by taxpayers, that's a pretty dumb comment (and laughable at that since Rutgers, being a state school, gets everything paid for by taxpayer money). [/QUOTE]
You, sir, are a F*#kin' idiot. But you probably believe the nonsense you write.
As for SHU getting arenas paid for by taxpayers, that's a pretty dumb comment (and laughable at that since Rutgers, being a state school, gets everything paid for by taxpayer money). [/QUOTE]
You, sir, are a F*#kin' idiot. But you probably believe the nonsense you write.
As mentioned before, we've revamped our tour in order to try and mitigate that, and survey results are positive. When did you hear that from your sister?
Did much of the same. Also "ran" my floor of the Douglass Library for 3-4 years. Frankly I deserve a plaque there for most time spent there ever.
PS If you ever plan to go to school again and graduated anywhere near me from Cook, GO BACK AND CHECK YOUR GPA AND TRANSCRIPTS. Supposedly I discovered a big error that if true affected thousands. Supposedly I had never heard of a rule that Cook was GPA free for x number of credits (great advisors). Then supposedly the rules was changed back to 0 credits later on (after 1988). I guessed (after submttingly transcripts that had my GPA .2 lower than it should have been). Made me look I was lying to law schools and coincidentally didn't get into those schools. I guessed and supposedly was right that they didn't change programming code to reflect the changes.
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