I'm a rising 2L at Rutgers Law (Newark). I wanted to see if there are any alumni on the message board who have any insight or advice to offer about finding a position in big law. I don't have any lawyers in my family, so the whole industry is pretty new me. Any advice is much appreciated! Thanks!
Any RU Law grads?
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I didn't go to law school at RU-N but the first question will be what percentile/rank you have in your class. For RU-N and big law I would think you'd need to be at least top 25%.
Pretty much this.. you need a solid first-year GPA to even score the interview slots at OCI. OP, I forget what the timeline for everything is -- have you already done the whole OCI bidding process and secured interviews or is all that still forthcoming?
And it still is. Top 25% gives the student an outside chance, but the closer to the top of the class, the better.
Just submitted OCI bids today, but I'm looking to apply outside of OCI as well. My GPA is good, well within the top 25%, but it's still tough to distinguish myself because the school doesn't rank. A lot of my current co-interns go to schools that curve to a B+ as opposed to the B the RU-N uses. I'm worried that my GPA may look worse in comparison, and firms may not be aware of this policy difference. Did you find anything particularly helpful to distinguish yourself from both other RU students and students from other law schools?
F big law. I graduated from Rutgers NB and then went to law school at U Maine. Immediately upon graduation, I went into private practice as a criminal defense attorney. I make more $ than any of my law school classmates, including the guys / gals who went to work for BIG firms.
Of course, some experience you can only get through working for a big firm so I shouldn't disparage it. Whatever your legal calling is, follow it and don't deviate from your goals. If you outwork your fellow grads and catch a few breaks, you'll do well for yourself in the long run.
Bill
I could not attract any big law interest even if I wanted to (I didnt). I got to chose where I wanted to live, and then got a job close to where I lived, then developed my own business there and now I own a share of a 50 year old law firm, with a client base, the best boss ever (me) and all the job security in the world. I have a highly respected attorney from big law who wants to join my firm for many reasons, but is worried that he will not be able to pull enough clients to stay above water.
Big law traps you. Your law degree can open up unlimited possibilities for you. Don't let the inane competition and gloating of law students blind you to that.
Big law traps you. Your law degree can open up unlimited possibilities for you. Don't let the inane competition and gloating of law students blind you to that.
King,
What state are you practicing out of and what area of law do you focus on? I only do criminal with a primary focus on DUI law.
Bill
Always good to hear success stories and see that they come in many shapes and forms. I personally would like to get into corporate/securities work, so the big law training would be valuable at the beginning of my career. But yes, who knows where it will take me...
What they said. I had the same experience as KingHigh. I am a patent attorney, and back when I graduated, the target was not BIGLAW (that has changed), but the big NYC firms. Couldn't get a sniff. Started a firm 12 years ago with a few other attorneys, and I am the only one left from that group. When I left a larger firm, one of the younger partners looked down his nose at me and wondered aloud what it would be like to make a living "picking low hanging fruit." I can said with a high degree of confidence, I pulled in more than him in the last 3-4 years by 2 to 3 times. The ones that stayed in the big firm and are partners are not happy. One of my friends who was at one of the Big 5 patent firms that imploded and went out of business. I do what I want when I want to do it. We go to work in jeans every day. Our billing "requirement" is 30-40% lower than big firms, and associates have a very realistic chance at equity partnership.
If things do not work out for Big law, all is not lost. You will probably be better off in the long run.
Must be pretty cool to build from the ground like that - you must be an impressive salesman on top of just being a lawyer.
The big firms are well aware of the differences in grading policy between schools. Don't worry about that. They'll only compare you with students from your school. You are absolutely correct in wanting to apply outside the big firms. Look at the listings in the career services office, and be prepared to write a lot of letters.
BTW, even if the big firms hire you, you should not count on a career there. Most associates do not become partners, and many associates decide that there are many more satisfying choices than being in a big firm. Pay attention to the advice that you are getting in this thread from lawyers.
Three things to remember.
1. Focus on your specific area of practice and strive to be the best in that field.
2. The wealthiest attorneys tend to be the best marketers. Marketing is your lifeblood.
3. If you're a shitty attorney, it's going to catch up to you and all the marketing in the world won't erase the bad mouthing and bad reviews you get from former clients. Clients are more sophisticated when looking for an attorney and they tend to do a lot of research online as well as speak with friends and family as they value their opinions. Google is your friend but can be your downfall if you only do mediocre work as the internet "never forgets".
Excel at both facets and you'll rise to the top of your profession.
Bill
Doing excellent legal work is the best marketing technique.
Camden law's advice about grades is spot on. I graduated RU-Newark in '88 and then clerked for a USDJ in the Distirct of NJ right after graduation. I will differ with those who disparage big law. I received almost 5 years of excellent training from a big NYC firm, then went to the U.S. Attorney's Office for still more valuable experience. I've been my own boss now for 15 years in a litigation boutique in NYC and NJ. I doubt I would be the attorney I am today without the big firm experience. It was a grind, but I was paid well and learned a lot about the law and the business's of law.
Agreed. Some guys succeed by shrewd marketing, but there is nothing better than great results, especially with litigation involving sophisticated clients.
I did well at RU - Newark Law but particularly enjoyed the clinic programs offered there. Many poo poo such programs and think they are not the route to good opportunities in traditional 'big law' practices. I'm living proof otherwise. Not too long out of law school I was a partner at one of the biggest and most respected law firms in the state. My only word of advice is don't become a sheep and follow the flock. Do it your way.
RU - NLaw grad 97. Member at NJ firm w 140 attorneys. I have some good insight into Biglaw firms having worked with most of them in NYC area.
Lots of interesting background stories here. I took a bit of a different route here than most:
1) Rutgers undergrad;
2) Tulane Law; then
3) Masters in tax from NYU.
Coming out of Tulane, I was not top 25% (top 1/3 though). Also, I knew very quickly that I didn't want to have anything to do with a courtroom. I do Wills and Trusts, although coming out of law school I also did some business and some real estate.
During my 3rd year at Tulane, I just wasn't getting any satisfactory offers, and every big firm I interviewed with (there weren't many) told me that they couldn't consider me without the tax degree. So I got one. In 3 weeks at NYU, I had more interviews with big firms than my entire 3 years at Tulane.
I wound up starting off at a mid-size boutique estate planning firm and then shortly after that going to a big firm. The big firm pay was nice, but nothing else was. I went out on my own after some time.
At first it can be very challenging, and scary as hell with respect to $. It takes a long time to:
1) build a base;
2) run a business;
3) learn all the software you need to learn;
4) hire and fire employees;
5) learn how to tell all the vendors who will call to "go away";
6) learn how to market; and of course
7) learn how to actually practice law.
The big problem with law schools is that you don't actually learn ANY of these things, including how to practice law.
Be humble, work hard, keep learning all the items 1-7, and you'll figure it out.
Most importantly, figure out what works for you. Not everyone should run their own firm. Certain careers are better suited to a big firm environment than a small firm environment... but if you want the big firm, don't do it for the money. They money will come if you are good at anything. Do the big firm only because it provides you a career opportunity that you can't otherwise get in a small firm environment.
Very good advice here on marketing, marketing, marketing, AND being good at what you do.
On getting into a top NY firm, you'll need at least a 3.7 or 3.8. The firms will have grade cutoffs for each school and won't consider you if you don't make the cutoff. It helps to be on law review. If you get the interview, be normal, not a socially challenged lawyer type.
On getting into a top NY firm, you'll need at least a 3.7 or 3.8. The firms will have grade cutoffs for each school and won't consider you if you don't make the cutoff. It helps to be on law review. If you get the interview, be normal, not a socially challenged lawyer type.
Do you have a sense of what kind of law you want to practice? Have you considered internships or clerkships to help distinguish yourself from the pack?
I practice in NJ. My real estate practice covers transaction, litigation, land use, property tax appeals and anything else that involves real estate and commercial transactions. My business law and estate planning practice flows from that.
The business of law, like any business, is sales driven. Even in big law, if you want to have a fulfilling career in big law, you need to show the senior partners that you can hook the big fish, and more importantly that you can take them with you out the door if you are not satisfied. That doesn't happen by accident. It takes a plan and effort to make it happen. But it takes a lot of time. How will you find time to do that while recording 200 billable hours per month? Because if you dont find the time to build that, then you will be expendable during leaner times. I'm not putting it down at all, don't get me wrong. The people I know who work in that world live in $2m homes and have really really nice stuff. I went to Aruba for a week with one a couple years ago. Aruba was great, she was busy working the whole time while the rest of us were getting drinking by the pool all day. Its a give and take.
Which brings me to hard work. Insane hours are not for everyone, it's not for me. I take my kids to school, I coach the soccer team and help my sons' Cub Scouts. I can count on one hand the times that I worked weekends. I work extremely hard when I'm working, and I care deeply about my clients' satisfaction. But I get to decide to hire people when the workload it more than I want to handle myself, so I can control the work-life balance that I want.
I could wear myself down and take home 500k per year from my business if that were my focus. Instead I take a couple hundred and I allow myself to be with my family every day. I always saw a law degree as a way to avoid having to be stuck in or near the city in order to make a great living.
There's a million ways to define and reach success in law. I'm doing it my way. Big law is it for others. It's up to each person to make it what they want.
Only reason I'm sharing is so anyone who is reading this in despair over not getting that position with Whateva Whateva & Whateva starting at $150k per year can understand that getting everything you want is directly in your control.
I'd like to do corporate, securities, or antitrust. I have 4 years of work experience in an unrelated field, and I'm interning at the SEC this summer, so I'm hoping some firms view that experience favorably.
There's a lot of wisdom in what you posted. Aside from doing well financially for several years, I got to live my life the way I wanted to without having to put in the insane hours and commute required by a job in NYC at BIGLAW. Did all of the same things- drove my sons to school, coached their baseball and soccer teams every year, and I am able to be an active member of two volunteer fire companies.
The original poster mentioned he wanted to work in corporate/securities. Don't know how great the opportunities are in that area outside of BIGLAW, and it may not be a bad place to learn for the first several years of his/her career. But as posted above, don't fret because all is not lost if you don't get a BIGLAW job.
Just wanted to add that clinics are good for acquiring some experience and some sense of what it's like to practice law. I wish I had done it when I was a law student. Another thing you can do in law school is do an upper-level moot court competition if one is available. Doing well will impress firms because they will see that you can write -- vital in legal practice -- and that you can think on your feet. Even non-litigation firms will be impressed.
I'm an equity partner at a BigLaw firm in NYC. We typically hire from the top 10 schools - Harvard, Columbia, NYU, Michigan, Penn, etc.
In terms of grade distributions, we have a booklet that we get from (I believe) BCG or another consulting firm showing the grade distributions of various schools and the ranges where we typically should hire from, etc.
I've only worked in BigLaw so I can't compare and contrast against SmallLaw, but I have really enjoyed my experience. It's challenging and tough at times, but it's definitely rewarding and satisfying at the same time.
Good luck during your search and hopefully you find something that you enjoy. The most important thing is to do something that you enjoy - because you need to put a lot of hard work and effort into becoming successful at whatever path you decide to pursue. It's tough to kick it into that 6th gear sometimes, but if you enjoy it, then it gets a lot easier.
In terms of grade distributions, we have a booklet that we get from (I believe) BCG or another consulting firm showing the grade distributions of various schools and the ranges where we typically should hire from, etc.
I've only worked in BigLaw so I can't compare and contrast against SmallLaw, but I have really enjoyed my experience. It's challenging and tough at times, but it's definitely rewarding and satisfying at the same time.
Good luck during your search and hopefully you find something that you enjoy. The most important thing is to do something that you enjoy - because you need to put a lot of hard work and effort into becoming successful at whatever path you decide to pursue. It's tough to kick it into that 6th gear sometimes, but if you enjoy it, then it gets a lot easier.
I think the 2016 reality for the OP is a little bit different from what the reality was even 10 years ago. You have to keep that in mind.
These days an LLM in tax or patent (science degree) is a surefire path to "Big Law." But even every journal and award is not, even at the T14.
The swell in law grads is decreasing, but a law degree still isn't as valuable as it was, considering the firms that went belly up, legal salaries are the last to catch up in recession, and even while the recession is mostly over in the biggest legal markets, lots of big law firms have recrafted, now hire "staff" attorneys to pay a pittance, cut salaries for those even higher up, etc.
I will share my background and hope this offers some color for the OP. Went to undergrad at RU and straight off to Fordham law after. When I graduated in 2010, I was told by even government employers that NYU grads were begging them for jobs because it was that bad out there. I got into an in-house gig in insurance through a friend of friend of a friend recommendation.
Being in house, I concur with what a lot of the smaller practitioners say. I'm not a millionaire by any stretch but I'm doing pretty well, have unlimited vacation days, leave work at a reasonable hour, never worked a weekend, etc.
My Facebook feed is littered with people who graduated with me who are now traveling or in house or not in law after their burnout and not being placed on the "partner track." I have some friends at bigger firms and they do well but they have no time to spend their money or do anything else.
Just my $.02 but we are in a different world out there and I wish all rising law students the best of luck because it is not what it used to be, but still can be pretty good.
These days an LLM in tax or patent (science degree) is a surefire path to "Big Law." But even every journal and award is not, even at the T14.
The swell in law grads is decreasing, but a law degree still isn't as valuable as it was, considering the firms that went belly up, legal salaries are the last to catch up in recession, and even while the recession is mostly over in the biggest legal markets, lots of big law firms have recrafted, now hire "staff" attorneys to pay a pittance, cut salaries for those even higher up, etc.
I will share my background and hope this offers some color for the OP. Went to undergrad at RU and straight off to Fordham law after. When I graduated in 2010, I was told by even government employers that NYU grads were begging them for jobs because it was that bad out there. I got into an in-house gig in insurance through a friend of friend of a friend recommendation.
Being in house, I concur with what a lot of the smaller practitioners say. I'm not a millionaire by any stretch but I'm doing pretty well, have unlimited vacation days, leave work at a reasonable hour, never worked a weekend, etc.
My Facebook feed is littered with people who graduated with me who are now traveling or in house or not in law after their burnout and not being placed on the "partner track." I have some friends at bigger firms and they do well but they have no time to spend their money or do anything else.
Just my $.02 but we are in a different world out there and I wish all rising law students the best of luck because it is not what it used to be, but still can be pretty good.
Good insights all around. 2010 - your timing could not have been much worse! Glad to see you made it and are doing well.
Thanks, I guess I should have clarified - I don't necessarily expect to spend my whole career in big law. Rather, I'd like to get in for several years early on to get the experience, training and contacts that it can provide. I understand how difficult and demanding the partner track can be, and frankly, I expect to move in-house at some point.
I actually started at BigLaw (of course, this is 40 years ago). I felt I learned good stuff and it certainly was a good credential. I have always wondered, though, if I might have been happier starting in the public sector.
Recent 2013 grad here from Rutgers-Camden.
Background:
Summered at a biglaw firm in Philly, did a two-year district court clerkship after graduation, and I currently clerk for the USCA Fifth Circuit. Starting biglaw in the fall in Houston, TX.
Coming from a lower-ranked school like Rutgers, biglaw is a huge crapshoot (I think my grad class placed maybe 15 students out of a class of 260ish).
Random advice:
GPA matters, a lot. I would say anything outside of top 10% is tough, unless you have connections.
Location matters too: getting a NYC biglaw job is much more difficult than somewhere like Philadelphia. All the top schools feed into NYC. I didn't see where you were looking, but if you expand your search a bit to places like Philly or Wilmington, you may have better luck.
Get on law review (then get an edit board position later).
If you still want to do biglaw, and you miss the summer associate boat, try and clerk for a year. It's a good way of backdooring yourself in.
Finally, biglaw isn't for everyone. It's what I've always wanted to do, but (as you can see above) different posters have different experiences/opinions. You'll find out what works best for you and you can have success in biglaw or otherwise. As a rising 2L, you still have a lot of options ahead of you.
Background:
Summered at a biglaw firm in Philly, did a two-year district court clerkship after graduation, and I currently clerk for the USCA Fifth Circuit. Starting biglaw in the fall in Houston, TX.
Coming from a lower-ranked school like Rutgers, biglaw is a huge crapshoot (I think my grad class placed maybe 15 students out of a class of 260ish).
Random advice:
GPA matters, a lot. I would say anything outside of top 10% is tough, unless you have connections.
Location matters too: getting a NYC biglaw job is much more difficult than somewhere like Philadelphia. All the top schools feed into NYC. I didn't see where you were looking, but if you expand your search a bit to places like Philly or Wilmington, you may have better luck.
Get on law review (then get an edit board position later).
If you still want to do biglaw, and you miss the summer associate boat, try and clerk for a year. It's a good way of backdooring yourself in.
Finally, biglaw isn't for everyone. It's what I've always wanted to do, but (as you can see above) different posters have different experiences/opinions. You'll find out what works best for you and you can have success in biglaw or otherwise. As a rising 2L, you still have a lot of options ahead of you.
Also, forgot to add, feel free to PM me and we can swap contact info; I'd be more than happy to chat with you on the phone/via e-mail and help however I can.
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I'm a solo practitioner so the hours are loooooooong (I'm at the office right now doing trial prep). I'd like to bring an associate onboard but it's tough to find the right person. With that said, while I work a TON of hours, I control my schedule to a large degree and find lots of time to play with my friends and family. Of course it goes without saying that I work every weekend, except when I'm playing. I work a lot of nights too, but in this field, the work comes in waves. So, I might work 2 straight weeks with only one Saturday off and then I'm working a couple of weeks where I'm home by 5pm and fly fishing or skiing all weekend. I also built a powerlifting gym in my office so I can burn off the stress, which helps during weeks like this one. F Planet Fitness! Anyway, you just have to grind and take the good with the bad.
I also get to do some pretty cool stuff outside of the practice of law. For example, in March of this year, I went out to Jackson Hole, WY for a seminar (I'm a BIG skier) and had a great work vacation (42" of snow in 4 days). This September, I'm attending Gerry Spence's Trial Lawyer College, which I hope will springboard me on to my next phase as a trial attorney. I love what I do and the best part is that I get paid to do it.
Good luck chasing your dreams kid!
Bill
A lot of good information in this thread. One important thing I learned during law school and while clerking is that every school has people graduating in the top x% with law review. Grades are an important prerequisite (or rather, THE prerequisite) to being considered for a position, and relevant prior work experience is great. But unless you're graduating at least magna cum laude and EIC of the law review (judging by @RickDaglessMD 's CoA clerkship, I'm willing to bet he meets one or both of those credentials) how will you set yourself apart from the other hundreds of people getting interviewed or submitting resumes? One of the best ways to set yourself apart is to know someone. It sucks, because it's not based on your education, skills or experience, but simply, who you know. It doesn't have to be a managing partner or even a lawyer, but just someone who can mention your name to the powers that be and help you get your foot in the door.
I was fortunate enough to have some offers to choose from when I graduated RU-N, but I ended up clerking for a year because none of the offers were in areas that I thought I wanted to practice in. I eventually got called in for an interview at a firm in the geographic location I wanted to work and in the transactional area that I wanted to practice, and it is where I work now. I had previously applied to the firm and got the form "Thank you for your resume, unfortunately . . ." letter. So what changed? I met a CPA at my mother-in-law's work function that I was attending. We chatted a bit and it turned out he knew the heads of the practice group I wanted to work in. He put in a good word for me, which was enough to get me in the door.
For OP and anyone else that might be in a similar position: the 2016 ABA Business Law Section Annual Meeting is in Boston on September 8 - 10. It is free to attend for law students if you're an ABA member and a member of the Business Law Section (don't recall what that all costs). It's a great opportunity to network and meet other attorneys, many of whom are leaders in their areas. It's also a cool opportunity to get a feel for certain aspects of all the various practices you may be interested in.
I was fortunate enough to have some offers to choose from when I graduated RU-N, but I ended up clerking for a year because none of the offers were in areas that I thought I wanted to practice in. I eventually got called in for an interview at a firm in the geographic location I wanted to work and in the transactional area that I wanted to practice, and it is where I work now. I had previously applied to the firm and got the form "Thank you for your resume, unfortunately . . ." letter. So what changed? I met a CPA at my mother-in-law's work function that I was attending. We chatted a bit and it turned out he knew the heads of the practice group I wanted to work in. He put in a good word for me, which was enough to get me in the door.
For OP and anyone else that might be in a similar position: the 2016 ABA Business Law Section Annual Meeting is in Boston on September 8 - 10. It is free to attend for law students if you're an ABA member and a member of the Business Law Section (don't recall what that all costs). It's a great opportunity to network and meet other attorneys, many of whom are leaders in their areas. It's also a cool opportunity to get a feel for certain aspects of all the various practices you may be interested in.
This is one of the most valuable pieces of information posted in this thread. There is no quicker and better path than using contacts to find a way in the door. Review the bios of the partners and associates of the firms you are interested in. Look up their LinkedIn profiles. It is likely/possible that you will find some sort of connection to a partner or associate at one of these firms. Sometimes this works, and sometimes it does not. But the best hires we have made have all been based on an introduction from a client or a trusted colleague.
A good barometer of law students who will have opportunities at big law firms are those who get summer associate jobs after their second year. A few things that I would have done, knowing what I know now. One, work this summer or during school (if possible) at law firms. Get involved with moot court and mock trials to get litigation experience. Working at big law firm generally will not come down to who you know unless you are borderline. It will be more about your credentials as it is a very formalized recruitment.
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