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Geo Baker

Well said.
"Imagine any other industry provided the justification..."

From Justice Kavanaugh's concurrence in Alson
"The NCAA’s business model would be flatly illegal in almost any other industry in America. All of the
restaurants in a region cannot come together to cut cooks’ wages on the theory that “customers prefer” to eat food from low-paid cooks"
The longer I think about Kavanaugh's concurrence, the more I disagree with it. Why? Because Kavanaugh says the NCAA had a monopoly over "intercollegiate amateur athletics" (which both Kavanaugh and the NCAA explicitly never even tries to define) ... and then Kavanaugh says it isn't really "amateur," but instead professional athletics (because the players have always been paid in scholarships, room, books, etc). He then says that prohibiting paying players (banning NIL) can still happen, it just can't happen at the NCAA level and, instead, must occur at the conference or individual school level (because then it isn't a monopolistic practice and it isn't an anti-trust violation).

But if everyone (including Kavanaugh) agrees that it has always been professional sports (since the first scholarship was granted to a player), then the NCAA is not acting as a monopoly; it doesn't have a share of the marketplace that is too large and too anti-competitive. If a player doesn't want to play "professionally" at an NCAA school, it can play professionally in the NBA, or the G-League, or overseas. Hell, Baker's argument for the last three years has been that if NIL wasn't granted, players would drop out of school and play professionally overseas. Guess what? That's capitalism. That's a marketplace without a monopoly. The Alston majority (and particularly Kavanaugh's concurrence) falls apart completely if you acknowledge NCAA football and mens basketball are professional sports.
 
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Ask the kid in the poor section of Houston who is getting a 4-year scholarship to be the 3rd-string free safety at SMU if he thinks it is a terribly designed system.

So you've changed your argument to "hey the kid is poor and should just be grateful for any scraps he gets". Lulz Mr. Scrooge.
 
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So you've changed your argument to "hey the kid is poor and should just be grateful for any scraps he gets". Lulz Mr. Scrooge.
No, my argument is that under the old system (that was in place for 50+ years and will be gone soon) that kid would receive a college education. And under the new system he's never going to have the opportunity to go to college and will spend his early twenties working menial labor somewhere for minimum wage.

"Back on the plantation, kid. Some of us want to be an activist and it can't be everybody."
 
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... except for the $100,000+ provided to them in education, room, meals, books, training, coaching, travel around the country, the opportunity to play interscholastic athletics ...

Most jobs come with salary and (wait for it).....benefits. I get healthcare, training, coaching, travel, educational reimbursement, discounts, promotional points etc..... In an industry worth billions you are advocating for one of the key components to get just the benefits for their toil.....while everyone around them is making hundreds of thousands to multi millions....PLUS ....the benefits.
 
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Most jobs come with salary and (wait for it).....benefits. I get healthcare, training, coaching, travel, educational reimbursement, discounts, promotional points etc..... In an industry worth billions you are advocating for one of the key components to get just the benefits for their toil.....while everyone around them is making hundreds of thousands to multi millions....PLUS ....the benefits.
Everyone? Or one coach (maybe two or three at Alabama and Ohio State)?
 
No, my argument is that under the old system (that was in place for 50+ years and will be gone soon) that kid would receive a college education. And under the new system he's never going to have the opportunity to go to college and will spend his early twenties working menial labor somewhere for minimum wage.

"Back on the plantation, kid. Some of us want to be an activist and it can't be everybody."

Ypur argument makes no sense. The kid will still get a scholarship at SMU....and potentially more.
 
Are you saying that coaches outside of Alabama/OSU don't make hundreds of thousands up to millions?
No, I'm saying a single coach at these schools makes $1 million+, while the tight ends coach at North Dakota State is scraping by. Just like at every other industry in America where the CEO is making a ton of money while the middle-managers worry about paying for their kids' college (irony noted as soon as I typed it), and the newest employees pay their dues for a few years while they demonstrate their ability and learn their craft.
 
Ypur argument makes no sense. The kid will still get a scholarship at SMU....and potentially more.
Not when SMU isn't in the "Professional College Football" Super Conference. And it won't be. And just like all the other D1 schools that aren't in that group of 25 to 40, when they aren't playing with the big boys, they will drop scholarships first, and then whole sports, and then entire athletics departments. And nobody at SMU is paying for the 3rd string safety; just like nobody at Rutgers is going to get paid to be 3rd string. This isn't the University of Texas where you get $60k/year to wear a uniform.
 
No, I'm saying a single coach at these schools makes $1 million+, while the tight ends coach at North Dakota State is scraping by. Just like at every other industry in America where the CEO is making a ton of money while the middle-managers worry about paying for their kids' college (irony noted as soon as I typed it), and the newest employees pay their dues for a few years while they demonstrate their ability and learn their craft.

Except that middle managers at "X" company can go out and have a side hustle or make money any way they can. College athletes were limited previously based on draconic NCAA rules over the last 50 years, now its come to bite them is the a$$.

Its delusional to think that the college institutions with the most money, resources and donor bases have not controlled bigtime football/basketball for decades. The TE coach at North Dakota state has a chance to greatly improve his salary and standing by moving to another school based on his success and work ethic. Under the old system an outstanding player at North Dakota state had to stay there or sit out a year to even transfer.....and for no gain except the potential to win or get a degree elsewhere.
 
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Not when SMU isn't in the "Professional College Football" Super Conference. And it won't be. And just like all the other D1 schools that aren't in that group of 25 to 40, when they aren't playing with the big boys, they will drop scholarships first, and then whole sports, and then entire athletics departments. And nobody at SMU is paying for the 3rd string safety; just like nobody at Rutgers is going to get paid to be 3rd string. This isn't the University of Texas where you get $60k/year to wear a uniform.

You seem to forget that RU played in the AAC. Hardly in the group of 25-40 that you mention. Again, it's like you've conveniently forgot how college football has worked over the past 50 years. There have always been haves and have-nots.
 
Except that middle managers at "X" company can go out and have a side hustle or make money any way they can. College athletes were limited previously based on draconic NCAA rules over the last 50 years, now its come to bite them is the a$$.

Its delusional to think that the college institutions with the most money, resources and donor bases have not controlled bigtime football/basketball for decades. The TE coach at North Dakota state has a chance to greatly improve his salary and standing by moving to another school based on his success and work ethic. Under the old system an outstanding player at North Dakota state had to stay there or sit out a year to even transfer.....and for no gain except the potential to win or get a degree elsewhere.
When I worked in the Department of Justice, you know how many side hustles I was allowed to have?

giphy.gif
 
You seem to forget that RU played in the AAC. Hardly in the group of 25-40 that you mention. Again, it's like you've conveniently forgot how college football has worked over the past 50 years. There have always been haves and have-nots.
Yes, the players who were not good enough to play at the haves, but were good enough to participate in football or mens basketball at a have-nots (or in a non-revenue sport anywhere) got to have an opportunity to earn an education. Soon, they will not. It's not a victory.
 
You're obviously a small time player. Donate more and make it happen.
Huh? I’m 6’4 225

Edit: oh I see you bumped something old for a joke lol got ya. Closer to 6’3.5” but I go with my listed height

Iirc @Greene Rice FIG and someone else are considering canceling because of NIL and are going to come to me to transfer tickets before doing so.
 
You mean like we do with graduate assistants in every department of the university?
What billions and billions of dollars are these graduate assistants generating? Are they graduate assisting in stadiums with millions of customers paying for parking, buying concessions, and filling stadiums on Saturdays to watch them graduate assist? Are customers watching on TV from home or at one of the thousands of graduate assistant bars around the country to which tons of graduate assistant fans flock to buy chicken wings and pints of beer? Are these professors who they are graduate assisting being paid 5 million per year to profess with a cadre of about a dozen assistants who make hundreds of thousands or millions annually? Is this what you believe is happening "in every department of the university"? I haven't seen it on ESPN. Is it on ESPNU? When it's "finals" season around the holidays does a quarter of the country watch the "finals" on network TV? Is there a "Math Madness" every spring just before classes let out, and are you paying money to make graduate assistant picks to fill your graduate assistant brackets, and studying graduate assistant bracketologists on sites that charge for advertising before you submit your picks in the annual Math Madness graduate assistant office pool? Do you have a board name on a graduate assistant website where you post in graduate assistant forums that follow graduate assistant recruiting, and are you paying even more for the graduate assistant premium board? Are you regularly heartbroken when graduate assistants go pro early? Do you get upset when a graduate assistant recruit decides at the last minute to go to KPMG's European office rather than graduate assist one of the professors at RU? You know, like we all do with graduate assistants in every department of the university.
 
What billions and billions of dollars are these graduate assistants generating? Are they graduate assisting in stadiums with millions of customers paying for parking, buying concessions, and filling stadiums on Saturdays to watch them graduate assist? Are customers watching on TV from home or at one of the thousands of graduate assistant bars around the country to which tons of graduate assistant fans flock to buy chicken wings and pints of beer? Are these professors who they are graduate assisting being paid 5 million per year to profess with a cadre of about a dozen assistants who make hundreds of thousands or millions annually? Is this what you believe is happening "in every department of the university"? I haven't seen it on ESPN. Is it on ESPNU? When it's "finals" season around the holidays does a quarter of the country watch the "finals" on network TV? Is there a "Math Madness" every spring just before classes let out, and are you paying money to make graduate assistant picks to fill your graduate assistant brackets, and studying graduate assistant bracketologists on sites that charge for advertising before you submit your picks in the annual Math Madness graduate assistant office pool? Do you have a board name on a graduate assistant website where you post in graduate assistant forums that follow graduate assistant recruiting, and are you paying even more for the graduate assistant premium board? Are you regularly heartbroken when graduate assistants go pro early? Do you get upset when a graduate assistant recruit decides at the last minute to go to KPMG's European office rather than graduate assist one of the professors at RU? You know, like we all do with graduate assistants in every department of the university.
I feel like you had a point while you were typing your rant, yet I've read it three times and I have no idea what that point was.
 
What billions and billions of dollars are these graduate assistants generating? Are they graduate assisting in stadiums with millions of customers paying for parking, buying concessions, and filling stadiums on Saturdays to watch them graduate assist? Are customers watching on TV from home or at one of the thousands of graduate assistant bars around the country to which tons of graduate assistant fans flock to buy chicken wings and pints of beer? Are these professors who they are graduate assisting being paid 5 million per year to profess with a cadre of about a dozen assistants who make hundreds of thousands or millions annually? Is this what you believe is happening "in every department of the university"? I haven't seen it on ESPN. Is it on ESPNU? When it's "finals" season around the holidays does a quarter of the country watch the "finals" on network TV? Is there a "Math Madness" every spring just before classes let out, and are you paying money to make graduate assistant picks to fill your graduate assistant brackets, and studying graduate assistant bracketologists on sites that charge for advertising before you submit your picks in the annual Math Madness graduate assistant office pool? Do you have a board name on a graduate assistant website where you post in graduate assistant forums that follow graduate assistant recruiting, and are you paying even more for the graduate assistant premium board? Are you regularly heartbroken when graduate assistants go pro early? Do you get upset when a graduate assistant recruit decides at the last minute to go to KPMG's European office rather than graduate assist one of the professors at RU? You know, like we all do with graduate assistants in every department of the university.
As the kids now say…touch grass
 
Adventure…in this new world you envision, you are suggesting there will be fewer programs and far fewer scholarship opportunities for athletes who would not get into college otherwise.

Do you think this is unfair/unjust ? Having to compete like most everyone else for admission on academic merit ?

Times change. Adapt. It’s been the way of the world forever and always will be.

Future athletes not good enough for scholarships in the new environment will realize early on they’ll need a Plan B, just like those athletes nowadays already do.
 
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Do you think this is unfair/unjust ? Having to compete like most everyone else for admission on academic merit ?
Most of the people screwed under the new system will be persons who can't afford to attend college without a scholarship, not those that can't qualify for college without participation in athletics. Poor kids from poor families.
 
No, I'm saying a single coach at these schools makes $1 million+, while the tight ends coach at North Dakota State is scraping by. Just like at every other industry in America where the CEO is making a ton of money while the middle-managers worry about paying for their kids' college (irony noted as soon as I typed it), and the newest employees pay their dues for a few years while they demonstrate their ability and learn their craft.

This is, of course, flat wrong. Even a lesser-performing B1G team like RU is paying football assistants hundreds of thousands and has even paid some a million per year. Most assistant coaches for D1 NCAA football and basketball teams make six figure salaries, or close to it, and significantly more than the assistants for, say, the swimming, volleyball, softball and field hockey teams. Because they’re paid for their involvement and worth in a massive commercial industry.
 
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Most of the people screwed under the new system will be persons who can't afford to attend college without a scholarship, not those that can't qualify for college without participation in athletics. Poor kids from poor families.

As has always been the case, schools can offer financial assistance and scholarships to all sorts of students, not just football and basketball players. But also them. And now the football and basketball players can get paid too, something that will be awfully nice for “persons who can’t afford to attend college.” Now, the money for these young adults would be better and more evenly distributed if the schools would just pay the student-athletes rather than awkwardly utilizing only NIL deals through loosely affiliated entities. But that’s for another day, when the NCAA figures out how to better operate this massive business that it has on its hands.
 
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Adv… I asked you if it’s unfair.
Unfair and unjust are nebulous terms based on morality (and political and social ideologies). Personally, I wouldn't describe it as unfair or unjust (although I would call the Alston ruling unjust itself for the reasons I outlined in a previous post, but generally because the NCAA doesn't have a monopoly on professional football or basketball). However, I would describe it as unfortunate and sad ... because it is a system that has been in place for decades, has worked well, has now been turned on its head by judicial fiat, and will result (my estimate is within 15 years) in one superconference and many of the schools that are left out terminating scholarship athletics (my estimate is within 30 years). And once those scholarships aren't available, a lot of poor kids that would have received a college education in the past, will not get one in the future.

I know that there is no way my father and his brothers would have ever received a college education (this was in the late 1960s) without football scholarships. They came from a dirt poor family with six kids and parents who never went to college (I'm not even sure my grandparents graduated from high school). College football was the ticket to upper-middle class lives (for all three brothers).
 
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The longer I think about Kavanaugh's concurrence, the more I disagree with it. Why? Because Kavanaugh says the NCAA had a monopoly over "intercollegiate amateur athletics" (which both Kavanaugh and the NCAA explicitly never even tries to define) ... and then Kavanaugh says it isn't really "amateur," but instead professional athletics (because the players have always been paid in scholarships, room, books, etc). He then says that prohibiting paying players (banning NIL) can still happen, it just can't happen at the NCAA level and, instead, must occur at the conference or individual school level (because then it isn't a monopolistic practice and it isn't an anti-trust violation).

But if everyone (including Kavanaugh) agrees that it has always been professional sports (since the first scholarship was granted to a player), then the NCAA is not acting as a monopoly; it doesn't have a share of the marketplace that is too large and too anti-competitive. If a player doesn't want to play "professionally" at an NCAA school, it can play professionally in the NBA, or the G-League, or overseas. Hell, Baker's argument for the last three years has been that if NIL wasn't granted, players would drop out of school and play professionally overseas. Guess what? That's capitalism. That's a marketplace without a monopoly. The Alston majority (and particularly Kavanaugh's concurrence) falls apart completely if you acknowledge NCAA football and mens basketball are professional sports.

Your post is not (in totality) what Kavanaugh wrote nor at the heart of his concurrence. What Kavanaugh wrote was that the NCAA does not have an anti-trust exemption (like the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc); therefore, restrictions on college athletes' compensation violates US anti-trust law. And as you can see below the NCAA agrees with that assertion. From the Concurring Opinion:

"The NCAA acknowledges that it controls the market for college athletes. The NCAA concedes that its compensation rules set the price of student athlete labor at a below-market rate. And the NCAA recognizes that student athletes currently have no meaningful ability to negotiate with the NCAA over the compensation rules."

Kavanaugh goes on to write:

"The NCAA nonetheless asserts that its compensation rules are procompetitive because those rules help define the product of college sports. Specifically, the NCAA says that colleges may decline to pay student athletes because the defining feature of college sports, according to the NCAA, is that the student athletes are not paid."

Kavanuagh also states that SCOTUS ruling can only be applied to the case before the Court, but he clearly believes the case has not gone far enough (bold added for emphasis):

"Everyone agrees that the NCAA can require student athletes to be enrolled students in good standing. But the NCAA’s business model of using unpaid student athletes to generate billions of dollars in revenue for the colleges raises serious questions under the antitrust laws. In particular, it is highly questionable whether the NCAA and its member colleges can justify not paying student athletes a fair share of the revenues on the circular theory that the defining characteristic of college sports is that the colleges do not pay student athletes. And if that asserted justification is unavailing, it is not clear how the NCAA can legally defend its remaining compensation rules."

So, the NCAA argument is college athletics is defined by the fact that athletes are not compensated even though they are clearly worth more than tuition, room, board and books.. It's a laughable position and the reason the NCAA lost 9-0 at SCOTUS.


https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/20pdf/20-512_gfbh.pdf
 
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I'm just not sure that your father and brothers don't get the football scholarships under this new system. Maybe they get them and get money, or just get the scholarships. Maybe not, though its not clear how that would happen. NCAA football and basketball players--and student athletes in many other sports--are still getting scholarships.

Regardless, it's guesswork to predict where the NCAA system will go in 10-15 years, other than to say that your guess (and mine) will almost certainly prove to be wrong. I'm amazed this system lasted as long as it did. It was just too messy to last. Antitrust laws aren't the only laws that could halt what the NCAA is doing in its tracks. The NCAA needs to get control of this. Or maybe it's the schools and the leagues that will get control of it, with the NCAA following in tow. NCAA basketball and football are huge businesses that absolutely can still thrive if managed well.

By the way, while you may disagree with the Alston reasoning, good luck trying to maneuver yourself to a world where it isn't the controlling law for a long, long time. That was a 9-0 decision.
 
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Unfair and unjust are nebulous terms based on morality (and political and social ideologies). Personally, I wouldn't describe it as unfair or unjust (although I would call the Alston ruling unjust itself for the reasons I outlined in a previous post, but generally because the NCAA doesn't have a monopoly on professional football or basketball). However, I would describe it as unfortunate and sad ... because it is a system that has been in place for decades, has worked well, has now been turned on its head by judicial fiat, and will result (my estimate is within 15 years) in one superconference and many of the schools that are left out terminating scholarship athletics (my estimate is within 30 years). And once those scholarships aren't available, a lot of poor kids that would have received a college education in the past, will not get one in the future.

I know that there is no way my father and his brothers would have ever received a college education (this was in the late 1960s) without football scholarships. They came from a dirt poor family with six kids and parents who never went to college (I'm not even sure my grandparents graduated from high school). College football was the ticket to upper-middle class lives (for all three brothers).
Thoughtful and intelligent answer. Unfortunate but not unfair. I half-buy that. Thank you.

I have two responses:
1. This isn’t the 1960s. Most universities today are actively looking to increase minority enrollment, not via athletics or non-academic talent admissions, and are offering much more aid to achieve that important goal.
2. When one door closes, try other doors. Necessity is the mother of invention. If CFB contracts, more young athletes will need to find other avenues for college admission.
 
The problem with the "doom and gloom" over NIL "ending college athletics" is that it ignores the actual item causing a massive imbalance between the "haves" and "have nots":

Conference media revenue

What's a bigger impact to long term competition between Rutgers and SHU/Temple?
Rutgers spending $1m on Ace or Rutgers receiving nearly $80m/year while those other schools receive $1m/year

Despite the conference revenue inequity growing exponentially - how many schools have DROPPED out of 1-A athletics?
How many have moved up?

If schools are volunteering to compete against Big Ten Schools making $100m/year while they get scraps - the minimal NIL pool certainly isn't going to be the tipping point.
 
We are still in the 2nd inning. Not sure how conference revenue has high
relevance to a NIL discussion

It's relevant to the argument "NIL is going to cause schools to drop athletics because they can't compete".

Conference Reveneue is a much bigger factor in schools not competing:
Temple: $7m
Seton Hall: $5m
Rutgers: $30m (and rapidly escalating to nearly $80m)

If Temple (and other schools) aren't dropping athletics over conference revenue dispecancies and "uneven playing field" then they likely won't over NIL.
Schools are literally moving up to 1-A athletics annually.
Has anyone ever actually gone down to 1-AA and dropped scholarships?

"Rutgers getting $50m in conference reveneue isn't the problem. It's Rutgers being able to spend $1m in NIL on Ace Bailey that is the deal breaker and makes college athletics unsubstanable."
 
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.....Not sure how conference revenue has high relevance to a NIL discussion

I believe College athletes being paid some percentage of revenue is inevitable. As Justice Kavanaugh wrote in Alston:

"Everyone agrees that the NCAA can require student athletes to be enrolled students in good standing. But the NCAA’s business model of using unpaid student athletes to generate billions of dollars in revenue for the colleges raises serious questions under the antitrust laws. In particular, it is highly questionable whether the NCAA and its member colleges can justify not paying student athletes a fair share of the revenues on the circular theory that the defining characteristic of college sports is that the colleges do not pay student athletes. And if that asserted justification is unavailing, it is not clear how the NCAA can legally defend its remaining compensation rules."
 
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Next up on NCAA and Legal Challenges...

Athletes sue Ivy League over its no-scholarship policy

A pair of basketball players from Brown allege in a federal lawsuit that the Ivy League's policy of not offering athletic scholarships amounts to a price-fixing agreement that denies athletes proper financial aid and payment for their services.

 
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Next up on NCAA and Legal Challenges...

Athletes sue Ivy League over its no-scholarship policy

A pair of basketball players from Brown allege in a federal lawsuit that the Ivy League's policy of not offering athletic scholarships amounts to a price-fixing agreement that denies athletes proper financial aid and payment for their services.

I call BS....Ivy athletes get all the financial aid they need. irrelevant that it's not called athletic scholarship.

more important....no one is forcing these athletes to go there. Let them find other schools who will take them and give them free rides and or NIL.
 
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I call BS....Ivy athletes get all the financial aid they need. irrelevant that it's not called athletic scholarship.

more important....no one is forcing these athletes to go there. Let them find other schools who will take them and give them free rides and or NIL.

Nice, solid legal reasoning. 🙄 🙄 🙄
The article addresses those points.
 
Thoughtful and intelligent answer. Unfortunate but not unfair. I half-buy that. Thank you.

I have two responses:
1. This isn’t the 1960s. Most universities today are actively looking to increase minority enrollment, not via athletics or non-academic talent admissions, and are offering much more aid to achieve that important goal.
... except my father (and his brothers) weren't minorities. They were poor white straight males. There's more people in that category than any other category in the country.
 
ok, but the point is the same...since coal mining employment is declining, find other work. Using your words which I agree with, unfortunate for those affected but not unfair. Not

Times change. Adapt.
 
I believe College athletes being paid some percentage of revenue is inevitable. As Justice Kavanaugh wrote in Alston:

"Everyone agrees that the NCAA can require student athletes to be enrolled students in good standing. But the NCAA’s business model of using unpaid student athletes to generate billions of dollars in revenue for the colleges raises serious questions under the antitrust laws. In particular, it is highly questionable whether the NCAA and its member colleges can justify not paying student athletes a fair share of the revenues on the circular theory that the defining characteristic of college sports is that the colleges do not pay student athletes. And if that asserted justification is unavailing, it is not clear how the NCAA can legally defend its remaining compensation rules."
Wouldn’t revenue from the NCAA tournament be more important. I’d think that conference revenue, in theory, gets split over all sports. The sh!t ton of money hoops tournament should be earmarked to the basketball players.
 
Wouldn’t revenue from the NCAA tournament be more important. I’d think that conference revenue, in theory, gets split over all sports. The sh!t ton of money hoops tournament should be earmarked to the basketball players.
If NCAA athletes get some sort of revenue sharing, does Title IX dictate that female athletes get the same as male?
Would the current court overturn or clarify the legal extent of Title IX?
 
Wouldn’t revenue from the NCAA tournament be more important. I’d think that conference revenue, in theory, gets split over all sports. The sh!t ton of money hoops tournament should be earmarked to the basketball players.
Where does that money go today? To the schools? As part of their conference pay out?
If NCAA athletes get some sort of revenue sharing, does Title IX dictate that female athletes get the same as male?
Would the current court overturn or clarify the legal extent of Title IX?
And that is the fly in the ointment. How do the sports/players share? Does a starter get the same as a back-up, as a practice team player? Does a women's bball starter get the same as a men's player? Does women's volleyball get paid? Is the money coming out of the athletic budget surplus?
 
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