I'm perplexed...
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Ash coached teams to their potential, and for that, he deserves credit. But lets not ignore the fact that that the OSU situation was built to succeed, with Joey Bosa, and All American DE, an excellent DT later drafted, and Vonn Bell a now All American safety.
The point is to label Ash potentially platinum due to his rose bowl and championship game participation and Golden copper is disingenuous. Bret Bielema and Urban Meyers leadership is what made those teams achieve.
All I'm saying is that there is no evidence to say that Golden is a bum while Ash is a star, which is what is being asserted here.
If you use the same logic than isn't it fair to say that Golden probably got similar talent at Miami but underachieved with all that Florida talent? Let's see how Richt does at Miami, do you think he's going to have similar results to Golden?
Has the thought ever occurred to you that SOMETIMES (not always but sometimes) the best coach is someone that's young and inexperienced but possessing a brilliant football mind. For about three decades, the Oakland Raiders were among the winningest franchises in the NFL because Al Davis wasn't afraid to go with someone that simply sounded incredible in an interview. The process worked more times than not. Coaches like John Madden and Jon Gruden were hired -- Madden at 32, Gruden at 34. He also hired Mike Shanahan at 35 who obviously had a ton of success elsewhere at Lane Kiffin at 31 who has yet to be a successful head coach in the pros or college, but the fact that some on this board wanted him at RU tells you that there's still the possibility he could become a good coach in some peoples eyes.
My point is YOU DO NOT KNOW if Rutgers was set on hiring a no-name coach or a guy with no experience. It is very possible they had a list of names and Ash was on it. During the interview, they realized they could get a guy that might be rather special.
There's no guarantee Ash will be a great coach or even a good coach, but there's no guarantee he won't be. This is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT than the Flood situation. There's absolutely no comparison there man. None. Flood was done in a panic situation. Ash was not.
BTW, the Raiders aren't the only NFL team to take chances (and succeed) with young hires in the NFL. Guys like Don Shula was hired at 33 years old, Bill Cowher at 34, and Mike Tomlin at 34 as well. Age does not equal winning and neither does experience. I originally thought RU should go after someone experienced, but I know firsthand what it's like when you interview someone that has that certain something -- a quality that makes you think you will kick yourself for years if you let them go elsewhere. I'm totally in Ash's corner. I think he's got a good vision for a program that he's been working on for years.
No. Because the pertinent fact you're forgetting is that Goldens 32-25 record was achieved despite significant sanctions and resulting loss of scholarships. Richt inherits a team unencumbered by scholarship losses, and a junior qb who has All American potential. He should win right away.
Even with the sanctions and loss of scholarships, Golden was still getting 8-10 4* and majority of 3* recruits, to me it looks like he underachieved and there might be a reason why he hasn't landed anywhere inspire of all the openings. He may have to go the Schiano route to build back his credibility.
And Al, you can't have it both ways. How many 4* has Flood recruited in the last 4 years? At one hand you don't want to give Ash credit because you think the talent at Ohio St. but at the same time you make convenient excuses for Golden.
I'm more perplexed by the state of Rutgers basketball.
How is it possible in that area of the country to be so consistently ungood?
How is it possible in that area of the country to be so consistently ungood?
Golden was a huge failure and got canned. Rather take an unknown then a known failure. More jobs open in college history and Golden was mentioned for none. Telling.
Wow, take away the few posters who can't come up with a cogent argument and just name-call and denigrate people without their point of view (e.g. take a look at your posts csphi) this has been a terrific discussion. Just what message boards are for! Now (at the risk of denigration), my take.
Didn't like Golden -- except for recruiting co-ordinator, or a higher level position where we could give him a title and take advantage of his recruiting prowess. But there are some positives about him. Just like there are some negatives about Ash. Believe me, if he were perfect, he'd have been long gone.
Does anybody really know how much $$$ was available for the hire? Whether Schiano wanted too much or didn't want the job or wasn't even asked? Why didn't Ash's name come up in any other searches? How come we never heard of him til two days (?) before he was hired? Who else did we really look at? Was he our first choice? Anybody else turn us down? There were a lot of candidates with good resumes but may have had some flaws. Nobody is a guarantee.
EVERYBODY here wants Ash to succeed. EVERYBODY. No matter who their preferred choice was. To suggest that to find any fault with Ash is traitorous is not realistic. After our first game and someone doesn't like a call, will you say that person anti-Ash? As much as I wanted Laviano benched, just for the entertainment value on this board, I'd love to see the reaction to our new coach if Ash chose Laviano as his starter. Those Anti-Floodites who have since deified Ash.....what would they say? I'll be monitoring this board hourly.
Didn't like Golden -- except for recruiting co-ordinator, or a higher level position where we could give him a title and take advantage of his recruiting prowess. But there are some positives about him. Just like there are some negatives about Ash. Believe me, if he were perfect, he'd have been long gone.
Does anybody really know how much $$$ was available for the hire? Whether Schiano wanted too much or didn't want the job or wasn't even asked? Why didn't Ash's name come up in any other searches? How come we never heard of him til two days (?) before he was hired? Who else did we really look at? Was he our first choice? Anybody else turn us down? There were a lot of candidates with good resumes but may have had some flaws. Nobody is a guarantee.
EVERYBODY here wants Ash to succeed. EVERYBODY. No matter who their preferred choice was. To suggest that to find any fault with Ash is traitorous is not realistic. After our first game and someone doesn't like a call, will you say that person anti-Ash? As much as I wanted Laviano benched, just for the entertainment value on this board, I'd love to see the reaction to our new coach if Ash chose Laviano as his starter. Those Anti-Floodites who have since deified Ash.....what would they say? I'll be monitoring this board hourly.
This thread is like bizarro world. Consider that under Flood, Al was making proclamations of RU as BIG Champion going to the Rose Bowl etc. Now he is bashing the new guy based on "hypothetical/potential" mistakes he might make in favor of retreads whom he has supported as RU Head Coaching options in previous posts based on the way they look (ie Cristobal).......or how they somehow did fantastic jobs achieving mediocrity (Golden).
The beauty is as soon as Ash flashes some promise at RU - Al will be back creating RU is the OSU of the East threads on top of Ash = Meyer threads. LOL
The beauty is as soon as Ash flashes some promise at RU - Al will be back creating RU is the OSU of the East threads on top of Ash = Meyer threads. LOL
Bravo. I may not agree 100% with you but I do appreciate your posts because you seem to truly want to have an educated discussion with an open mind toward the other person's opinion and you stay away from trashing another.
So many want to make this a Holden vs Ash argument or a love Ash or hate Ash debate. My only point was that there were other highly qualified head coaches that were not properly vetted or the admin vetted them purely by a limited budget - which in and of itself means we got what we paid for but not necessarily what we could have gotten if the budget was more. And even given that budget limitation we likely could have gotten a coach with more head coaching experience and NJ ties.
People can always find an argument against the other potential candidates, as can be done with Ash. It really comes down to what each of us was looking for in a candidate that determines if we think Ash was the most qualified candidate for the position. In my case, I wanted to spend more and get someone with prior Head Coaching experience that was a proven recruiter and preferably with NJ ties so they could hit the ground running with the NJ coaches and recruits. With Ash we got none of that and that is why I am disappointed. Others may out more value in Ash being and Urban Meyer disciple (although he hasn't been with him that long) and his youthful Schiano like exuberance but those things were secondary to me and that is why there is such disagreement on the pick.
This is a discussion about the process and the pick. Has nothing to do with supporting Ash. As you noted, we will all support him (once he gets here) and all be hoping he is the second coming of Schiano or better yet Meyer, but if he is and we continue to be cheap, you can bet he won't be around long. People will say I'm unrealistic but I view that as defeatest. Eventually the administration and the state of NJ needs to get behind this program the way other states do and recognize if you go cheap you will never have a successful and profitable program. And I'm sure there is sufficient difference of opinion as to whether that can ever happen in NJ - and that is a shame.
Good post!
Go RU!
-CG
Perhaps he is a blind supporter on the back end but an educated consumer on the front end. Seems many want Al to be just the blind supporter on Ash and ignore his own views on whether he believe Ash was the best candidate for the job. He can have an opinion and can change that opinion. That is the beauty of an opinion. So many on this board think their opinion is fact and those that oppose it are somehow idiots. The reality is, at the end of this, we won't know who was the better pick. We will only know if Ash succeeds or fails or bails not whether someone could have done better. And that is the basis for a good civil discussion on opinions because there will be no way to prove the argument one way or another.
I may not always agree with Al (and certainly not on Flood as I said he was a mistake choice when they hired him and every day thereafter) but I respect his passion for the team and his willingness to listen and discussion opposing views void of insults and slurs.
Go RU!
-CG
To play devils advocate, All the guys you mentioned either had head coaching experience at the college ranks and/or had already been in the NFL. Hardly the same thing. That said, this debate isn't about age. It's about what we put as the priority. I, and others like me, wanted a coach with previous head coaching experience (running a full program), that was a strong recruiter, and preferably with Jersey ties. Ash has none of that, so naturally we are disappointed in the pick on that basis. Others like Ash's youthful exuberance and that he is a disciple of Meyer and are willing to roll the dice on that basis. I get that and like that but it wasn't at the top of my list. And there lies the disagreement. Then comes the dreamer vs reality argument. Those of us who believe that in order to have a truly successful program you have to have a state and administration that fully supports the team and vision. I think we all agree that we do not and as a result or list of "realistic" candidates is severely narrowed down. And that is the real shame. So is Ash the best candidate - that is debatable (given the above) and why there is such a variance in "opinion" (not fact). But it doesn't warrant name calling or slurs because someone is on one side of the debate and others on the other side. And, once again, that is where and why I entered this discussion.
To each his own but let's not think any of us are "right" because the guy hasn't set foot on the field yet (well - at least our field) and we'll never know if someone could have done a better job after he leaves because that too will be a matter of debatable opinion. That said, I can probably guarantee you that the majority, if not all, on this board that are debating this are RU loyalists and passionate fans and all want Ash to be wildly successful (that was never the issue). Guessing if you did a simple poll that asked "Do you want Ash to be successful at Rutgers?" you'd have a much higher percent of people in agreement than if you did a poll "Was Ash the best candidate for the job?"
My opinions are no "better" than yours and yours no "better" than mine. So lets learn to be more civil in discussing then and shun those who choose to not be.
Go RU!
-CG
So many assumptions here. What do you know about the vetting process? Maybe your preferred candidates were vetted and eliminated for purely football or program direction reasons. Do you know? Maybe they just flat out decided that they were not going to go backwards with someone like Schiano. Maybe they decided that with the talent gap we have and will continue to have for the near future requires an offensive scheme that your handpicked dream coaches were unwilling to go to (like the spread) and meant that those coaches were not a fit.
Your entire argument seems to rest on an assumption of lack of money or just incompetence. That is why you come off as just another form of the type of chronic complaners so prevalent in this board in spite of your pretense of logic and reason.
Did it ever occur to you that a conscious decision was made to recruit more nationally? They may know exactly what they are doing by not going with coaches with a history in jersey. Maybe they decided a clean break was required to bring in a fresh approach. NJ has not exactly been real generous to us in either money or talent. Maybe the idea was always to get a broader based staff with relationships in the Midwest and south.
Do I know any of this to be true? Of course not but neither do you. Again your opinion is also based on a whole bunch of assumptions about what criteria were used in the vetting process. Me, I'm tired of an approach that requires success recruiting NJ. F'em, if NJ coaches and players want to join the party after we achieve success they can wait in line just like everyone else from across the country. I don't care where they come from I just want to win.
That's exactly right. Nobody knows. As I asked in a previous post: It would be nice if we knew the kind of things you're asking. But we don't. But isn't that why we have a message board? Discussion, speculating, complaining, complimenting, suggesting. Shouldn't be disparaging someone personally.
Upon further reflection, I strongly feel Flood should have been given more time.
He is a NJ/NY guy, and he HAS coaching experience.
He know NJ, and his recruiting was bound to get better.
WHO IS WITH ME!!?!?!?
He is a NJ/NY guy, and he HAS coaching experience.
He know NJ, and his recruiting was bound to get better.
WHO IS WITH ME!!?!?!?
Are you familiar with term passive aggressive? My only infraction might be calling someone a complainer but the rest of this thread is filled with implied accusations couched in polite language. Quite frankly it has run its course long ago.
BTW: Houston is looking pretty good right now. Just sayin'
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Let's not overthink and bring hidden agendas and psychologies into this. I think whatever agendas are there are pretty obvious. And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
I was a Flood guy, so I agree. BUT it's time to move on and support Coach Ash. Nothing constructive can be gained from rehashing the Flood pros and cons. Now if you want to start a pissing fight about whether Ash will start Laviano, then I'm all in!!! haha.
Underachieved relative to what? 32-25 isn't underachieving given the context f the situation. I think Miami fans have an inflated sense of self, and that it will be difficult to achieve the performance of their glory seasons, which were achieved with easy schedules. Their schedule these days is much more difficult.
Just like with Rutgers Not every 4* he got was a 4* talent. Many were busts.
He's getting paid 2.539 million till February 1st, 2020. He can afford to be patient and like Schiano, will probably sit this year out.
I don't want to argue with you, but Golden was there from 2011-2015 and the following players from that time are in the NFL:
Seantrel Henderson (2010-13), OT
Pat O’Donnell (2013), P
Travis Benjamin (2008-11), WR
Duke Johnson (2012-14), RB
Ladarius Gunter (2013-14), CB
Phillip Dorsett (2011-14), WR
Erik Swoope (basketball 2009-14), TE
Thurston Armbrister (2011-14), LB
Allen Hurns (2011-13), WR
Brandon Linder (2010-13), OG
Lamar Miller (2010-11), RB
Olivier Vernon (2009-11), DE
Chase Ford (2010-11), TE
Ereck Flowers (2012-14), OT
Ray-Ray Armstrong (2009-11), LB
Jon Feliciano (2011-14), OG
Clive Walford (2011-14), TE
Anthony Chickillo (2011-14), LB
Sean Spence (2008-11), LB
Marcus Forston (2008-11), DT
Brandon McGee (2009-12), CB
Brandon Washington (2009-11), OG
Denzel Perryman (2011-14), LB
Justin Renfrow (2013), DT (playing OL in NFL)
Mike James (2009-12), RB
Don't let he facts get in the way with your argument.
1) You are making stuff up.
2) You are supporting a guy to rebuild Rutgers who as you claim is willing to sit on his ass on the sidelines to collect a check.
Silly post. Rutgers put a good number of players in the NFL from '07 till '11, yet had a worse record over that time period. The real fact of the matter is that you're idealizing what you hope Ash will achieve over what Golden actually did achieve.
What Golden did was factual, what you hope Ash will achieve is speculative.
Golden already has a track record, recruiting top jersey recruits to Boston College and UVa. Ash on the other hand has worked at Wisconsin, which has excellent facilities and OSU, which also has excellent facilities. How effective will Ash be at Rutgers, where we have middle of the road facilities, yet recruit against programs with top notch facilities, such as Michigan, OSU, and Tennessee among others? That remains to be seen.
Not making anything up.
We're paying Ash less than what Miami paid Golden. That is a fact. I support Rutgers, but am honestly responding to a hypothetical.
Again, don't let the facts get in the way, Rutgers record over that time was well over .500 and that doesn't include the 2006 11-2 year:
2007 Big East — T–5th 8 5 Won International Bowl vs. Ball State, 52–30 — —
2008 Big East — T–2nd 8 5 Won PapaJohns.com Bowl vs.NC State, 29–23 — —
2009 Big East — T–4th 9 4 Won St. Petersburg Bowl vs.UCF, 45–24 — —
2010 Big East — 8th 4 8 — — —
2011 Big East — T–4th 9 4 Won Pinstripe Bowl vs. Iowa State, 27–13 — —
2012 Kyle Flood Big East — T–1st 9 4 Lost Russell Athletic Bowl vs.Virginia Tech, 10–13 — —
Come on, Man! Look at our schedule, look at Miamis! ACC more difficult. No FSU on our schedule.
If you state assumptions as facts, expect people to disagree with your conclusions.
Just to add to the facts, here was the 4 star recruiting history (from Scout.com) just prior to Golden (what he inherited his first few years) and after he arrived. He was slammed by his predecessor and the sanctions, and his successor will benefit by not being under the sanctions and inheriting a cleaner program. The class year Golden inherited had 1 four star recruit. So he inherited a program on the slide, going into 4 years of sanctions and the team was not filled with 4 star recruits. He likely only benefited from the 2009 and half a class at 2010 and that was likely why his best year was when those guys were junior and seniors. If he made pros out any more that is due to his coaching not his predecessors recruiting. I should also note that in the years that Miami faultered in recruiting, Florida, UNC and Clemson were the top recruiters in the ACC (explaining why they improved vs Miami).
Just presenting the facts.
Three years preceding Golden
2009 – 8 four star
2010 – 5 four star
2011 – 1 four star
Golden years (under sanctions)
2012 – 6 four star (self imposed sanctions)
2013 – 9 four star (self imposed sanctions)
2014 – 6 four star (NCAA recruiting sanctions)
2015 – 3 four star (NCAA recruiting sanctions)
Go RU!
-CG
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I couldn't give a Rats Ass about Al Golden, not even sure why I'm arguing with you guys about him. Based on what I'm seeing so far from Coach Ash and team, we will get at a minimum 3-5 4* in 2017 class, if not more. Maybe your in love with Golden's first name, I don't know, based on your past track record, you have zero credibility here.
Again, your only reply is an insult. This is a discussion around whether a board member thought there were more qualified candidates out there than Ash. Not an idictment of Ash or a love fest with Golden or any other potential candidate. Just a discussion on a discussion board. Has little to do with whether one will support Ash once he gets here.
If you don't want to participate in the discussion then don't, but don't insult other board members. I would guess, since your only replies are insults, that those you insult are far more intelligent than you are. If you can't discuss opposing "opinions" without insulting other members then you are representative of the insults and slurs that you fling.
Can't wait for another one of your great, well thought out, replies.
Go RU!
-CG
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