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Most Experienced Players Failed Offensively

BillyC80

Heisman Winner
Gold Member
Oct 23, 2006
14,368
11,745
113
4th/5th/6th Year
Noah 0-4
Mag 0-3
Palm. 0-1
Hyatt 1-4
AWill 1-3
Cliff 3-5
Total 5-20

2nd Year
Derek 1-7
Wolf. 1-2
Total 2-9

Freshmen
JMike 5-12
Gavin 5-9
Total. 10-21
 
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I hope Pike switches up the starting lineup. Might as well start both and send a message. It's not even just that they shot better than the rest of the team last game. Both JMike and Griffiths were showing a lot of effort out there

Simpson's only bucket was when he got fouled and just muscled up a shot that happened to go in. I've never seen a worse shooting guard who is so eager to shoot. Will give him credit on effort. He was hustling all over. Drive to pass and help the team. Your shooting isn't helping. Pike should have him scrimmage where he can't shoot to get him thinking about passing
 
I hope Pike switches up the starting lineup. Might as well start both and send a message. It's not even just that they shot better than the rest of the team last game. Both JMike and Griffiths were showing a lot of effort out there

Simpson's only bucket was when he got fouled and just muscled up a shot that happened to go in. I've never seen a worse shooting guard who is so eager to shoot. Will give him credit on effort. He was hustling all over. Drive to pass and help the team. Your shooting isn't helping. Pike should have him scrimmage where he can't shoot to get him thinking about passing
Yes, JMike played his usual solid D, and was disruptive to PSU’s offense. Gavin took another step in the right direction. I loved his blocked shot on the PSU big man, for which he was whistled for a foul, but he showed some moxie on that play. Davis also had 4 rebounds and Gavin had 3 (more than Hyatt and Mag but not more than Derek who had 8).
 
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4th/5th/6th Year
Noah 0-4
Mag 0-3
Palm. 0-1
Hyatt 1-4
AWill 1-3
Cliff 3-5
Total 5-20

2nd Year
Derek 1-7
Wolf. 1-2
Total 2-9

Freshmen
JMike 5-12
Gavin 5-9
Total. 10-21
Pike has not gotten the starter lineup correct all year. But when you take it out 4 minutes into the game you ruin any possibility of things becoming more cohesive. Your stats cited mean almost nothing when Mag and Hyatt only play 15 and 14 minutes.
These players are really bad at fundamentals , making layups contested or uncontested , finishing at the rim by using the backboard like every other guard in the country , simple give and go , head fakes , shot fakes , actually jumping to get a rebound like it is a novelty let alone a semblance of a box out. Wolf actually didn’t jump for 2 rebounds under the basket allowing their center to convert a second and third chance. He gets 2-3 offensive rebounds and cannot convert a 2 foot shot.
But Pike not playing Hyatt for most of the second half and long stretches of the first half when 1 or 2 threes would have likely won the game arguably cost us the game. Pike ‘s rotations , his mandatory in his mind removal of our starters at the under 16 timeout less than 5 minutes in , his mandatory in his mind 3 person hockey line sub , are not helping this challenged shooting team.
 
Pike has not gotten the starter lineup correct all year. But when you take it out 4 minutes into the game you ruin any possibility of things becoming more cohesive. Your stats cited mean almost nothing when Mag and Hyatt only play 15 and 14 minutes.
These players are really bad at fundamentals , making layups contested or uncontested , finishing at the rim by using the backboard like every other guard in the country , simple give and go , head fakes , shot fakes , actually jumping to get a rebound like it is a novelty let alone a semblance of a box out. Wolf actually didn’t jump for 2 rebounds under the basket allowing their center to convert a second and third chance. He gets 2-3 offensive rebounds and cannot convert a 2 foot shot.
But Pike not playing Hyatt for most of the second half and long stretches of the first half when 1 or 2 threes would have likely won the game arguably cost us the game. Pike ‘s rotations , his mandatory in his mind removal of our starters at the under 16 timeout less than 5 minutes in , his mandatory in his mind 3 person hockey line sub , are not helping this challenged shooting team.
I don’t know man, maybe Hyatt should have been given a longer leash, but something is definitely going on with Mag. In his 15 minutes he had 1 rebound, 2 turnovers, and 2 fouls to go along with his 0-3 shooting and zero points. His minutes may have been limited based on not only poor performance but by a nagging injury of some kind. Third bad game in a row and very uncharacteristic showing for my favorite player.

Anyway the point of my OP was to simply point out that the more veteran players gave us very little offensively as compared to the freshmen. It’s only one game so it’s likely an anomaly, but we certainly should be able to expect Hyatt and Derek to convert on an uncontested breakaway layup and for Simpson to shoot better than 1-7 and for Fernandes to give us more than 0-4, and so on, with Williams, Mag, and Palm also giving us nothing on the offensive end.
 
Pike has not gotten the starter lineup correct all year. But when you take it out 4 minutes into the game you ruin any possibility of things becoming more cohesive. Your stats cited mean almost nothing when Mag and Hyatt only play 15 and 14 minutes.
These players are really bad at fundamentals , making layups contested or uncontested , finishing at the rim by using the backboard like every other guard in the country , simple give and go , head fakes , shot fakes , actually jumping to get a rebound like it is a novelty let alone a semblance of a box out. Wolf actually didn’t jump for 2 rebounds under the basket allowing their center to convert a second and third chance. He gets 2-3 offensive rebounds and cannot convert a 2 foot shot.
But Pike not playing Hyatt for most of the second half and long stretches of the first half when 1 or 2 threes would have likely won the game arguably cost us the game. Pike ‘s rotations , his mandatory in his mind removal of our starters at the under 16 timeout less than 5 minutes in , his mandatory in his mind 3 person hockey line sub , are not helping this challenged shooting team.
Lets hear how you would do things?
 
Lets hear how you would do things?
He has apparently decided who his starters are, some can argue who they should be , but damn let them play 8 straights minutes unless they are gasping for air. Chemistry and flow doesn’t always work when you are yanked 4 minutes in. One of the reasons Gavin looked good against Purdue was that Pike let him go 7-8 straight minutes.
He absolutely has to stop taking Cliff out first.
He absolutely has to end the 3 person hockey line sub at the under 16 timeout. Why can he not watch for 7-8 minutes , notice someone is gassed or doesn’t have it and sub that 1 player. ?
This group makes a lot of mistakes and miss a lot of shots. When you yank them quickly or they know they will be yanked quickly , they will try to force shots to make an impact. Gavin did this from the end of December until Purdue.
He set up nice screens to set up Gavin against Purdue ? He can do that for Hyatt too .
He ran a new set against Michigan State where we got 4 backdoor layups by bringing 3 guys together and letting one guy screen for the cutter. We were right in that Michigan State game until he made his 3 person sub. Why hasn’t he brought back that offensive set since Michigan State ?
Iso ball is here to stay and the best teams have their players breakdown their defenders and penetrate and score or pass. Our guards do neither. Their shooting % is miserable and their passing is worse.

Stop the guards from aimlessly dribbling and instead make quick sharp passes around the perimeter or back door or inside out to Cliff demanding him to kick it out immediately on seeing the double team.
Just play fundamental smart basketball. It shouldn’t be this hard to score or make a basket.
 
He has apparently decided who his starters are, some can argue who they should be , but damn let them play 8 straights minutes unless they are gasping for air. Chemistry and flow doesn’t always work when you are yanked 4 minutes in. One of the reasons Gavin looked good against Purdue was that Pike let him go 7-8 straight minutes.
He absolutely has to stop taking Cliff out first.
He absolutely has to end the 3 person hockey line sub at the under 16 timeout. Why can he not watch for 7-8 minutes , notice someone is gassed or doesn’t have it and sub that 1 player. ?
This group makes a lot of mistakes and miss a lot of shots. When you yank them quickly or they know they will be yanked quickly , they will try to force shots to make an impact. Gavin did this from the end of December until Purdue.
He set up nice screens to set up Gavin against Purdue ? He can do that for Hyatt too .
He ran a new set against Michigan State where we got 4 backdoor layups by bringing 3 guys together and letting one guy screen for the cutter. We were right in that Michigan State game until he made his 3 person sub. Why hasn’t he brought back that offensive set since Michigan State ?
Iso ball is here to stay and the best teams have their players breakdown their defenders and penetrate and score or pass. Our guards do neither. Their shooting % is miserable and their passing is worse.

Stop the guards from aimlessly dribbling and instead make quick sharp passes around the perimeter or back door or inside out to Cliff demanding him to kick it out immediately on seeing the double team.
Just play fundamental smart basketball. It shouldn’t be this hard to score or make a basket.
So tell me how you or he should do it?

What are you doing at the 12 minute mark?
Gavin and JaMike stay on the bench for 1st 8 minutes?

Again....you are Pike how are you going to plan to sub in the 1st half.....I get foul trouble and other stuff always makes you have to deviate but everyone needs a plan.

Let's see your plan!
 
How about a better strategy than trying to thead a needle to win games
Let me see the plan. Show it to me. Playing everyone 40 minutes?

Players need rest. It isn't binary, but you as a coach have 2 choices. Sub a little at a time and have your starting 5 together for a shorter period of time OR sub in larger groups which risks bad lineups on the floor but maximizes time your best unit out there together.

In addition when you are in practice there is often times a 1st team and a 2nd team and that 2nd team actually plays together and has chemistry.

No one wants to believe the 2nd team was out there together for 5+ minutes and actually outscored Penn State by 4 early in the game.
 
Let me see the plan. Show it to me. Playing everyone 40 minutes?

Players need rest. It isn't binary, but you as a coach have 2 choices. Sub a little at a time and have your starting 5 together for a shorter period of time OR sub in larger groups which risks bad lineups on the floor but maximizes time your best unit out there together.

In addition when you are in practice there is often times a 1st team and a 2nd team and that 2nd team actually plays together and has chemistry.

No one wants to believe the 2nd team was out there together for 5+ minutes and actually outscored Penn State by 4 early in the game.

Ace and Dylan will play 33 minutes minimum next year and there will be games at 37-38 min
 
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How about a better strategy than trying to thead a needle to win games
When you have no guards on the team that can shoot from the perimeter you pretty much have no choice but to "thread your needle" against most teams.

Penn State was one game that we should have been able to win with defense, but our offense was off the charts bad. off our charts which is really bad
 
Let me see the plan. Show it to me. Playing everyone 40 minutes?

Players need rest. It isn't binary, but you as a coach have 2 choices. Sub a little at a time and have your starting 5 together for a shorter period of time OR sub in larger groups which risks bad lineups on the floor but maximizes time your best unit out there together.

In addition when you are in practice there is often times a 1st team and a 2nd team and that 2nd team actually plays together and has chemistry.

No one wants to believe the 2nd team was out there together for 5+ minutes and actually outscored Penn State by 4 early in the game.

Gg

Basketball is about putting the ball through the cylinder

Pikes comments in the huddle during the Purdue game shown at the end of The Journey were cringeworthy
 
Ace and Dylan will play 33 minutes minimum next year and there will be games at 37-38 min
They will hit a brick wall by January. A very good chance one of them gets hurt.

Ace and Dylan all their basketball lives have played one side of the court. They have never had to play full speed on both sides. They will fail miserably having to play 36 minutes
 
When you have no guards on the team that can shoot from the perimeter you pretty much have no choice but to "thread your needle" against most teams.

Penn State was one game that we should have been able to win with defense, but our offense was off the charts bad. off our charts which is really bad

Well thats not the case next season

Pikiell prior recruiting got too much of a pass on these boards
 
They will hit a brick wall by January. A very good chance one of them gets hurt.

Ace and Dylan all their basketball lives have played one side of the court. They have never had to play full speed on both sides. They will fail miserably having to play 36 minutes

Bollocks
 
Let me see the plan. Show it to me. Playing everyone 40 minutes?

Players need rest. It isn't binary, but you as a coach have 2 choices. Sub a little at a time and have your starting 5 together for a shorter period of time OR sub in larger groups which risks bad lineups on the floor but maximizes time your best unit out there together.

In addition when you are in practice there is often times a 1st team and a 2nd team and that 2nd team actually plays together and has chemistry.

No one wants to believe the 2nd team was out there together for 5+ minutes and actually outscored Penn State by 4 early in the game.
Players do not need the rest you think . Most of the top teams have their starters play 32-37 minutes a game . The players should have been better conditioned to play longer especially with all the TV timeouts.
If Pike decides JMike or Gavin are not starters , then they wait and when one of the starters starts to falter between 16 and 12, he subs 1 like Gavin. When another guard falters he puts in JMike. Both he lets them get a good run to the 6 minute mark . Wolf only spells Cliff at the 12 minute mark for 4-5 minutes and Cliff finishes the half. Foul trouble affects things but Cliff has been subbed without foul trouble .

The only reason the subs increased the lead from 6-3 to 12-5 was because the starters were taken out 4 minutes in. Your argument is silly. How did they do the rest of the game when Hyatt and Mag were pinned to the bench ?

His rotations and how he subs has not worked. He has to try something different.
Play your so called starters longer. If you think JMike or Gavin should be starters play them longer.
 
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You arent beating Purdue unless you have SHOTMAKERS
This last sentence is the key.

We’re talking on here about who plays when, what plays we run, etc.

That’s all well and good but the purpose of any offensive scheme is to get good looks.

We get plenty of good looks and just don’t make them, layups included.
 
Players do not need the rest you think . Most of the top teams have their starters play 32-37 minutes a game . The players should have been better conditioned to play longer especially with all the TV timeouts.
If Pike decides JMike or Gavin are not starters , then they wait and when one of the starters starts to falter between 16 and 12, he subs 1 like Gavin. When another guard falters he puts in JMike. Both he lets them get a good run to the 6 minute mark . Wolf only spells Cliff at the 12 minute mark for 4-5 minutes and Cliff finishes the half. Foul trouble affects things but Cliff has been subbed without foul trouble .

The only reason the subs increased the lead from 6-3 to 12-5 was because the starters were taken out 4 minutes in. Your argument is silly. How did they do the rest of the game when Hyatt and Mag were pinned to the bench ?

His rotations and how he subs has not worked. He has to try something different.
Play your so called starters longer. If you think JMike or Gavin should be starters play them longer.
What happens when you ask a team to play the defense our program asks and you play them 35 minutes every game?

We all lived it last year. Obviously Mag got hurt. Read almost EVERY one of bacs post game threads...in almost every one of them I raised concerns about the minutes our starters were playing and how it could hurt us.
 
DEFENSE DEFENSE DEFENSE

the shots will fall they always do

Sounds like a very fragile team with no confidence. He is lying to them

You arent beating Purdue unless you have SHOTMAKERS
Nebraska and Indiana it sort of worked. Middle 1/3 of last year it worked.

We are a bad shooting team, but I can't think we are really this bad.
 
DEFENSE DEFENSE DEFENSE

the shots will fall they always do

Sounds like a very fragile team with no confidence. He is lying to them

You arent beating Purdue unless you have SHOTMAKERS
Like Harper and Spencer.
 
What happens when you ask a team to play the defense our program asks and you play them 35 minutes every game?

We all lived it last year. Obviously Mag got hurt. Read almost EVERY one of bacs post game threads...in almost every one of them I raised concerns about the minutes our starters were playing and how it could hurt us.
Mag getting hurt was a fluke. Caleb and Paul started the year hurt . When we were playing Michigan State we were humming because the starters were playing 32 plus minutes a night playing elite defense and real good offense . Don’t rewrite the facts. We were kicking ass and taking names on the way to a 5,6 or 7 seed . Just stop with your bullshit that young 18-22 year need rest.
 
What happens when you ask a team to play the defense our program asks and you play them 35 minutes every game?

We all lived it last year. Obviously Mag got hurt. Read almost EVERY one of bacs post game threads...in almost every one of them I raised concerns about the minutes our starters were playing and how it could hurt us.

They wont be asked to play that defense
 
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Gg

Basketball is about putting the ball through the cylinder

Pikes comments in the huddle during the Purdue game shown at the end of The Journey were cringeworthy
It’s equally about putting the ball through the cylinder and stopping the other team from doing same. 23-21 is a better outcome than 88-90.
 
Mag getting hurt was a fluke. Caleb and Paul started the year hurt . When we were playing Michigan State we were humming because the starters were playing 32 plus minutes a night playing elite defense and real good offense . Don’t rewrite the facts. We were kicking ass and taking names on the way to a 5,6 or 7 seed . Just stop with your bullshit that young 18-22 year need rest.
And the team hit a brick wall. Rewrite facts? We had an epic collapse.

You were the same guy who told me i was stupid and not watching when i told you that Paul wasnt going to score 20 points every night.

do i need to find those paul threads?
 
Well thats not the case next season

Pikiell prior recruiting got too much of a pass on these boards
And the team hit a brick wall. Rewrite facts? We had an epic collapse.

You were the same guy who told me i was stupid and not watching when i told you that Paul wasnt going to score 20 points every night.

do i need to find those paul threads?
You are mixing seasons. Paul ‘s explosion was 2 years ago. Keep to the actual facts. Last year we were humming until Mag went down and Paul willed us to the win against Michigan State playing his best game or second half of the year.

You think the team hit a brick wall not that Mag went down and everybody’s role changed and we didn’t have our very very solid starting 5 , that could play offense or defense with any team but our elite defense took a hit. Mag was a monster at the head of the press that was not duplicated and you have to play a different game. No more easy buckets on the steals from the press.
I disagree with your take as that is not what happened.
 
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You are mixing seasons. Paul ‘s explosion was 2 years ago. Keep to the actual facts. Last year we were humming until Mag went down and Paul willed us to the win against Michigan State playing his best game or second half of the year.

You think the team hit a brick wall not that Mag went down and everybody’s role changed and we didn’t have our very very solid starting 5 , that could play offense or defense with any team but our elite defense took a hit. Mag was a monster at the head of the press that was not duplicated and you have to play a different game. No more easy buckets on the steals from the press.
I disagree with your take as that is not what happened.
It was a combo of both.

Paul fell apart at the end of each of the last 2 seasons

I bring up paul because you said i was stupid that i couldn’t see that paul had changed. I said ill use my sample size and he will revert back.
 
It was a combo of both.

Paul fell apart at the end of each of the last 2 seasons

I bring up paul because you said i was stupid that i couldn’t see that paul had changed. I said ill use my sample size and he will revert back.
First of all, that was Paul’s junior season. To expect our junior to take a leap like a lot of BiG 10 players that made the leap as sophomores and as much improved juniors was not unrealistic especially since he did it for 5 straight games not 1 isolated game. My thought and the thought of many was that Paul ‘s uptick in play would take us to the next level.
Unfortunately , he didn’t play the rest of the year like he did in those 5 games. Got hurt with his shoulder in the first game last year and was never the same. Could I have predicted he would get much worse instead of better as a junior and a senior ? Sorry no. So take your victory lap but don’t tell me you predicted he would revert to playing terribly like he did.
 
What happens when you ask a team to play the defense our program asks and you play them 35 minutes every game?

We all lived it last year. Obviously Mag got hurt. Read almost EVERY one of bacs post game threads...in almost every one of them I raised concerns about the minutes our starters were playing and how it could hurt us.
We play two games a week. Sometimes one day a week. Players will get hurt because they get hurt, it has nothing to do with the minutes. In high school this kids play every day during AAU, sometimes twice a day during tournaments. Players are not tired and quite honestly could probably play the whole game given the light schedule.
 
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First of all, that was Paul’s junior season. To expect our junior to take a leap like a lot of BiG 10 players that made the leap as sophomores and as much improved juniors was not unrealistic especially since he did it for 5 straight games not 1 isolated game. My thought and the thought of many was that Paul ‘s uptick in play would take us to the next level.
Unfortunately , he didn’t play the rest of the year like he did in those 5 games. Got hurt with his shoulder in the first game last year and was never the same. Could I have predicted he would get much worse instead of better as a junior and a senior ? Sorry no. So take your victory lap but don’t tell me you predicted he would revert to playing terribly like he did.
He was clearly hurt last year, but our opponents had also figured him out and he wasn’t able to adjust. He was a poor ballhandler, dribbled way too high, couldn’t bring the ball up, and when he tried to dribble to the basket, opposing players who were guarding our players on the perimeter would dig into him and knock the ball loose, and what had been effective no longer worked.
 
The semantics being argued here come back to a few truths that we need to be reminded

we really have built this program by Defense , rebounding , and hard work. The offense has been hit or miss

With a few exceptions …Ron , geo , Corey , Jacob …we have mostly had players that were not complete offensive players

Right now …we are where we are because of two subpar recruiting classes of five players , two of which aren’t here (Miller and jones ) , one doesn’t play at all (Chol), one barely can do enough to okay 8-10 minutes as a back up center (Wolfolk) and one rotation player (Simpson )

Everything that’s an issue right now starts with that

We can argue substitution patterns (yea they drive me nuts) , how bad the offensive schemes are or aren’t , and how poor we shoot…but it comes back to talent …pike isnt making filet mignon out of 75% ground beef this year …and I’m not sure any coach could

More talent is coming …and we need to add more in the class of 2025 .

Next year …we will have a different problem…inexperience …but at least we have sone serous talent coming into the program to coach up…or fail to coach up

I’ll take that Over the current issue now and I’ll trust pike that he will figure it out by Presidents’ Day to make sone sort of run In the second half of February into March ….how deep of run , depends on how well…he coaches

But , at least next year , he puts himself in a position to do it . This year , we don’t have the roster

Blame pike’s recruiting for this year , not his coaching skills on the court
 
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First of all, that was Paul’s junior season. To expect our junior to take a leap like a lot of BiG 10 players that made the leap as sophomores and as much improved juniors was not unrealistic especially since he did it for 5 straight games not 1 isolated game. My thought and the thought of many was that Paul ‘s uptick in play would take us to the next level.
Unfortunately , he didn’t play the rest of the year like he did in those 5 games. Got hurt with his shoulder in the first game last year and was never the same. Could I have predicted he would get much worse instead of better as a junior and a senior ? Sorry no. So take your victory lap but don’t tell me you predicted he would revert to playing terribly like he did.
You just called me stupid for not seeing it. Thats the takeaway.
 
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