NIL numbers

[High Quality H2O]

How long will it be before collectives figure out how to structure deals to keep players at a school for 4 years. Some type of loan that is forgiveable after 4 years.

The loan will just be repaid by the next school if they want them that badly.

Also why would I sign up for that deal when the next school gives the same dollar-bucks without the strings attached.

But if that started happening, it could slow down some movement.

 

[socaldave]

These are private citizens conducting private business deals. No way to single them out from every other citizen using the law and force them to disclose their personal private dealings. The only way to have transparency like that would be if there were a player's union.

If they go to public universities that should be a public number.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

The loan will just be repaid by the next school if they want them that badly.

Also why would I sign up for that deal when the next school gives the same dollar-bucks without the strings attached.

But if that started happening, it could slow down some movement.

They wouldnt. You would give the player 3X what a 1 year price is.

 

[HPNJRUfan]

I know I'm coming into this super late, and I know RU72 is a Yale guy - but I've been watching Cornell all year (Girlfriend is an alum), and they have a few guys from the NJ/NYC area that I wouldn't mind transferring to RU next year (Manon, Gray, and Hansen).

 

[S.W.A.I.N]

If they go to public universities that should be a public number.

They aren’t being paid by the public university. They are being paid by a private collective. Not complicated.

 

[High Quality H2O]

They wouldnt. You would give the player 3X what a 1 year price is.

So I loan 100k and they owe me 300k if they leave early?

If I’m a player I’m going somewhere without that stipulation.

If the highest paying schools start that then may be others can follow suit. But they may be reluctant to as they would be less competitive amongst each other.

 

[NickRU714]

They aren’t being paid by the public university. They are being paid by a private collective. Not complicated.

The irony that the biggest critics of “paying players” also seem to be the biggest advocates of “universities should pay players directly so it’s public” and also “players are already getting paid with a scholarship” is not lost on me.

It’s quite funny watching people chasing their own tail.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

They wouldnt. You would give the player 3X what a 1 year price is.

Year 0 player gets $800K
Year 1 player pays taxes on $100K and owes $700K has 3 playing years left
Year 2 player payes taxes on $100K and owes $600K has 2 playing years left
Year 3 players pays taxes on $100K and owes $500K has 1 year left to play
Year 4 players pays taxes on $100K and owes $400K and is done
Year 5 thru 8 players pays taxes on $100K

 

[Eagleton96]

Still waiting for anyone to answer "Why is it the responsibility of CFB and MBB to cover the expenses of every other sport in the AD?"

What exactly is wrong with more money going towards CFB and MBB - they earn the money.
If my department raised 95% if the companies revenue and leadership said "I know you need more cash to stay competitive but....we need to spend it to prop up this other department that literally has zero revenue."

You are 100% right. If the revenue sports didn't exist, the cost of athletics to Rutgers wouldn't change much. The revenue sports basically pay for themselves. And cost of the rest of the sports is born by the University. In other places the revenue sports do make a profit for the university. That's great if you can get it, but that should be an expectation

If they go to public universities that should be a public number.

What should be a public number? If you are saying the NIL should be a public number, then you would also have to say that every student that attends a public university should have to disclose their private sources of income.

 

[socaldave]

You are 100% right. If the revenue sports didn't exist, the cost of athletics to Rutgers wouldn't change much. The revenue sports basically pay for themselves. And cost of the rest of the sports is born by the University. In other places the revenue sports do make a profit for the university. That's great if you can get it, but that should be an expectation

What should be a public number? If you are saying the NIL should be a public number, then you would also have to say that every student that attends a public university should have to disclose their private sources of income.

No just the ones on scholarship

 

[Eagleton96]

No just the ones on scholarship

So every student that receives a scholarship should have to disclose other private information to the public? In addition to just not making sense, it likely violates the 4th Amendment and general rights to privacy.

 

[socaldave]

So every student that receives a scholarship should have to disclose other private information to the public? In addition to just not making sense, it likely violates the 4th Amendment and general rights to privacy.

Just Athletic scholarships, who receive NIL

 

[needmorecowbell]

the amounts paid should all be public and transparent for everyone to see. Only fair right

Should everyone’s salary be public?

 

[Eagleton96]

So every student that receives a scholarship should have to disclose other private information to the public?

Just Athletic scholarships, who receive NIL

Just no legal basis to do that.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Still waiting for anyone to answer "Why is it the responsibility of CFB and MBB to cover the expenses of every other sport in the AD?"

What exactly is wrong with more money going towards CFB and MBB - they earn the money.
If my department raised 95% if the companies revenue and leadership said "I know you need more cash to stay competitive but....we need to spend it to prop up this other department that literally has zero revenue."

CFB and MBB have lost oodles of money for most schools. Football has lost over $100,000,000 at Rutgers over the past 10-15 years.

Football loses money at most schools. Football cant be cut at most schools so other programs get cut instead.

 

[NickRU714]

CFB and MBB have lost oodles of money for most schools. Football has lost over $100,000,000 at Rutgers over the past 10-15 years.

Football loses money at most schools. Football cant be cut at most schools so other programs get cut instead.

Has it? I've never seen an actual breakdown by sport from within an Athletic Department.
You can't quote the total deficit of an AD and attribute it that solely to CFB and MBB.

Even if that were true though, then CFB and MBB would be the same as every sport.
Non-revenue sports have also lost oodles of money for most schools.

If football got cut because it loses money, do you believe Rutgers would still fund and lose money on other sports?

Why shouldn't sports that have zero potential to be net positive be cut if the university chooses?

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Before money was in college sports schools had many sports and losses were small.

Regarding Rutgers…some expenses and revenue are directly related to a sport and some are not. Getting an exact profit or loss isnt really possible.

If our atletic department has years of losing 40,000,000 you know womans swimming and diving isnt losing more than 500k

If it wasnt for FB and BB womans VB would be taking buses and not planes to away matches

 

[RUChoppin]

If it wasnt for FB and BB womans VB would be taking buses and not planes to away matches

What you mean is Rutgers would be in a smaller, more local conference and wouldn't need to travel by plane to away matches. We'd have still been playing Lafayette and Lehigh.

 

[Fat Koko]

How is possible that a big school like UCLA with a ton of history of winning doesn't have any NIL?

That seems strange to me. I would assume there are plenty of rich successful alumni to tap into

UCLA faces similar sports donor headwinds as Rutgers.

1) Metro areas saturated with professional sports team with huge fan bases. Tens of thousands of sports fans in LA and New York metros spend thousands every year on season tickets to local professional sports teams. Contrast this with Tuscaloosa and other power conference markets, where college sports is the only game in town.

2) Student bodies and alumni bases from immigrant backgrounds who are less likely to come from households with college sports traditions. 56% of UCLA students are Asian and Hispanic. The figure is 44% at Rutgers. At Alabama, only 9%.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

What you mean is Rutgers would be in a smaller, more local conference and wouldn't need to travel by plane to away matches. We'd have still been playing Lafayette and Lehigh.

So the losses would be even more manageable. Did we need planes for any A10 contests? Again I am talking olympic sports and countering the agreement why does FB and BB pay for other sports when in reality they did the opposite in many cases.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Has it? I've never seen an actual breakdown by sport from within an Athletic Department.
You can't quote the total deficit of an AD and attribute it that solely to CFB and MBB.

Even if that were true though, then CFB and MBB would be the same as every sport.
Non-revenue sports have also lost oodles of money for most schools.

If football got cut because it loses money, do you believe Rutgers would still fund and lose money on other sports?

Why shouldn't sports that have zero potential to be net positive be cut if the university chooses?

I guess we should be asking why does junior high and high school have sports. There is no chance for profit and it is subsidized by tax player dollars.

As you may be able to tell I have skin in the game....maybe I'd think differently if I didn't

 

[RUChoppin]

So the losses would be even more manageable. Did we need planes for any A10 contests? Again I am talking olympic sports and countering the agreement why does FB and BB pay for other sports when in reality they did the opposite in many cases.

You join the Rutgers 1000 all of a sudden? lol

If we just went back to intramural sports without scholarships or coaching staffs, and every player chipped in, there wouldn't need to be an athletic budget at all.

As it is, though, the outlay for facilities, coaches, travel, equipment, scholarships, etc. can never be recovered by the non-revenue sports. The pie of broadcast and conference revenue also cannot be spread evenly across them, because they are not the ones driving that revenue.

They are all cost, and that's fine. The model is that the revenue from the more popular sports help defray the costs of the less popular ones.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

You join the Rutgers 1000 all of a sudden? lol

If we just went back to intramural sports without scholarships or coaching staffs, and every player chipped in, there wouldn't need to be an athletic budget at all.

As it is, though, the outlay for facilities, coaches, travel, equipment, scholarships, etc. can never be recovered by the non-revenue sports. The pie of broadcast and conference revenue also cannot be spread evenly across them, because they are not the ones driving that revenue.

They are all cost, and that's fine. The model is that the revenue from the more popular sports help defray the costs of the less popular ones.

That model has evolved over the years…before $ entered the costs for non revenue sports was reasonable and was paid thru student fees (which you could argue wasnt fair).

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

You join the Rutgers 1000 all of a sudden?

I wouldnt mind going back in a time capsule 35 years and being a college basketball fan (especially with no 3 point line :) )

To me playing Michigan or Iowa doesnt mean more to me than playing Duquesne or Rhode Island. Coaches dont need 4,000,000. Rutgers had a path to a national championship.

Those Temple Rutgers games were battles...as a college student going to games I knew all the players on all the teams. To this day the best basketball game I ever saw might have been our loss to GW at home

 

[Fat Koko]

Year 0 player gets $800K
Year 1 player pays taxes on $100K and owes $700K has 3 playing years left
Year 2 player payes taxes on $100K and owes $600K has 2 playing years left
Year 3 players pays taxes on $100K and owes $500K has 1 year left to play
Year 4 players pays taxes on $100K and owes $400K and is done
Year 5 thru 8 players pays taxes on $100K

Athletes in their late teens and early 20s are horrible at managing their tax obligations. Your example works on paper but would create problems in the real world.

Example - one of my Rutgers roommates became a sports agent representing young baseball players from developing countries. Many of these players would get signing bonuses of say $50,000 or $100,000. The first financial decision they make? Purchase cars - nice, new cars. Almost without exception, the prices of the cars would equal the amount of the signing bonuses.

After agreeing with dealer to front the car to be paid for when the signing bonus cleared, the players would be shocked 30% to 40% of the bonus amount was withheld for taxes. The players' families didn't have the money to make up the difference. Or when taxes were not withheld, the players - on low minor league paychecks - didn't have the money to pay the IRS during tax season.

My friend got out of the business because the headaches of sorting out his clients' financial and other problems, though he said American players were easier, but he couldn't attract the US players as clients.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Athletes in their late teens and early 20s are horrible at managing their tax obligations. Your example works on paper but would create problems in the real world.

Example - one of my Rutgers roommates became a sports agent representing young baseball players from developing countries. Many of these players would get signing bonuses of say $50,000 or $100,000. The first financial decision they make? Purchase cars - nice, new cars. Almost without exception, the prices of the cars would equal the amount of the signing bonuses.

After agreeing with dealer to front the car to be paid for when the signing bonus cleared, the players would be shocked 30% to 40% of the bonus amount was withheld for taxes. The players' families didn't have the money to make up the difference. Or when taxes were not withheld, the players - on low minor league paychecks - didn't have the money to pay the IRS during tax season.

My friend got out of the business because the headaches of sorting out his clients' financial and other problems, though he said American players were easier, but he couldn't attract the US players as clients.

I hear you. I would hope there would be an entity that would withhold money for the payment of taxes. In the example I used the taxes wouldn't be that great, but still over 15K per year (fed and state)

 

[Eagleton96]

Before money was in college sports schools had many sports and losses were small.

Regarding Rutgers…some expenses and revenue are directly related to a sport and some are not. Getting an exact profit or loss isnt really possible.

If our atletic department has years of losing 40,000,000 you know womans swimming and diving isnt losing more than 500k

If it wasnt for FB and BB womans VB would be taking buses and not planes to away matches

I wouldn't assume that the smaller olympic sports don't lose more than 500k. Add in their share of expenses on facilities, fringe benefits for coaching salaries, medical staff, I think it adds up fast. And there are a lot of these teams.

On a related note, I wonder what the fringe rate is for coaching salaries. Generally the treasurer sets the rate for all public employees, and it's very high percent of the base salary. 70% now. I wonder if the athletic department has to pay 70% on Gregg's salary. In theory they pay indirect on top of that. Obviously his health benefits don't cost that much and the system for public employees was not designed to account for 7 figure salaries.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I wouldn't assume that the smaller olympic sports don't lose more than 500k. Add in their share of expenses on facilities, fringe benefits for coaching salaries, medical staff, I think it adds up fast. And there are a lot of these teams.

On a related note, I wonder what the fringe rate is for coaching salaries. Generally the treasurer sets the rate for all public employees, and it's very high percent of the base salary. 70% now. I wonder if the athletic department has to pay 70% on Gregg's salary. In theory they pay indirect on top of that. Obviously his health benefits don't cost that much and the system for public employees was not designed to account for 7 figure salaries.

RU's could be higher because being in B1G means airfare and hotel for almost every road game.

I would think RU baseball has expenses over 1,500,00. I would think RU woman's swimming and diving is 1/3 of that.

 

[Fat Koko]

Has it? I've never seen an actual breakdown by sport from within an Athletic Department.
You can't quote the total deficit of an AD and attribute it that solely to CFB and MBB.

Even if that were true though, then CFB and MBB would be the same as every sport.
Non-revenue sports have also lost oodles of money for most schools.

If football got cut because it loses money, do you believe Rutgers would still fund and lose money on other sports?

Why shouldn't sports that have zero potential to be net positive be cut if the university choose

Every division 1 university creates financial reports that the NCAA requires follow its accounting procedures. The NCAA requires these reports to be audited. In addition, each university president must certify the report for the president's university is accurate.

At Rutgers and most division 1 universities, the numbers are broken down by sport.

However, many revenues and expenses are not sport-specific, such as student fees paid to athletic departments and administrative overhead like the athletic director salaries. The NCAA does not require these amounts to be allocated across sports.

At public universities, these reports are shared with the public, often by way of freedom of information laws.

Getting to sport by sport profitability is tricky.

Take Rutgers for example. The athletic department brought in $44 million in media rights revenue last fiscal year. I would argue most of that revenue should be allocated to football, but how much? Reasonable, informed people would not agree.

Now take athletics facilities debt service. Rutgers paid $11 million in debt service last fiscal year. Roughly half of this amount relates to the football stadium expansion completed 15 years ago. I would argue most of debt service expense on the bonds issued to fund this expansion should be attributed to football.

 

[fluoxetine]

Year 0 player gets $800K
Year 1 player pays taxes on $100K and owes $700K has 3 playing years left
Year 2 player payes taxes on $100K and owes $600K has 2 playing years left
Year 3 players pays taxes on $100K and owes $500K has 1 year left to play
Year 4 players pays taxes on $100K and owes $400K and is done
Year 5 thru 8 players pays taxes on $100K

Am I missing something? Why not just pay them $100k per year for 8 years contingent on whatever rather than doing this?

 

[fluoxetine]

Also what happens when the player just spends the $800k and defaults on the loan?

 

[RUsojo]

Every division 1 university creates financial reports that the NCAA requires follow its accounting procedures. The NCAA requires these reports to be audited. In addition, each university president must certify the report for the president's university is accurate.

At Rutgers and most division 1 universities, the numbers are broken down by sport.

However, many revenues and expenses are not sport-specific, such as student fees paid to athletic departments and administrative overhead like the athletic director salaries. The NCAA does not require these amounts to be allocated across sports.

At public universities, these reports are shared with the public, often by way of freedom of information laws.

Getting to sport by sport profitability is tricky.

Take Rutgers for example. The athletic department brought in $44 million in media rights revenue last fiscal year. I would argue most of that revenue should be allocated to football, but how much? Reasonable, informed people would not agree.

Now take athletics facilities debt service. Rutgers paid $11 million in debt service last fiscal year. Roughly half of this amount relates to the football stadium expansion completed 15 years ago. I would argue most of debt service expense on the bonds issued to fund this expansion should be attributed to football.

IIRC 85-90% is football/basketball with 85%-90% attributed to football, according to consensus from the few public sentiments from the media exec side not the school/conference side.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Am I missing something? Why not just pay them $100k per year for 8 years contingent on whatever rather than doing this?

Because going rate might be 250K per year and players probably would want $ now

 

[Fat Koko]

On Olympic sports, let us look at women's gymnastics as an example. All 10 B1G school offering the sport disclose revenues and expenses for women's gymnastics.

All 10 schools lost $1 million or more on the sport, except for Penn State. Keep in mind Rutgers gymnastics expenses do not include debt service paid for its new training facility.

2023 fiscal year
School revenues expenses deficit
Michigan $283,764 $2,668,531 ($2,384,767)
Rutgers $257,330 $2,525,168 ($2,267,838)
Iowa $336,934 $2,002,520 ($1,665,586)
Nebraska $277,743 $1,902,214 ($1,624,471)
Ohio State $299,753 $1,900,369 ($1,600,616)
Illinois $135,671 $1,600,089 ($1,464,418)
Michigan State $487,101 $1,877,988 ($1,390,887)
Minnesota $269,635 $1,578,233 ($1,308,598)
Maryland $350,492 $1,618,550 ($1,268,058)
Penn State $944,479 $1,740,943 ($796,464)

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Also what happens when the player just spends the $800k and defaults on the loan?

that is an issue for sure....or does the opposite of Woolfolk and gets massively fat

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

On Olympic sports, let us look at women's gymnastics as an example. All 10 B1G school offering the sport disclose revenues and expenses for women's gymnastics.

All 10 schools lost $1 million or more on the sport, except for Penn State. Keep in mind Rutgers gymnastics expenses do not include debt service paid for its new training facility.

2023 fiscal year
School revenues expenses deficit
Michigan $283,764 $2,668,531 ($2,384,767)
Rutgers $257,330 $2,525,168 ($2,267,838)
Iowa $336,934 $2,002,520 ($1,665,586)
Nebraska $277,743 $1,902,214 ($1,624,471)
Ohio State $299,753 $1,900,369 ($1,600,616)
Illinois $135,671 $1,600,089 ($1,464,418)
Michigan State $487,101 $1,877,988 ($1,390,887)
Minnesota $269,635 $1,578,233 ($1,308,598)
Maryland $350,492 $1,618,550 ($1,268,058)
Penn State $944,479 $1,740,943 ($796,464)

those are big numbers....i wonder how much of that is from airfare and hotels AND how much of that is rent paid to the traning facility that is only there because of hoops.

 

[fluoxetine]

Because going rate might be 250K per year and players probably would want $ now

But they're not really getting $ now? It's not like they have any other income to cover this $700k loan. So either
(a) they've got to set the $700k aside against their future liabilities and not touch it, thus effectively only getting $100k OR
(b) the person making the loan has just taken on some extremely skecthy credit risk

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

But they're not really getting $ now? It's not like they have any other income to cover this $700k loan. So either
(a) they've got to set the $700k aside against their future liabilities and not touch it, thus effectively only getting $100k OR
(b) the person making the loan has just taken on some extremely skecthy credit risk

It is a forgiveable loan so the only obligations are keep playing and have enough for taxes.

As for B there is no real credit risk, just a risk of not seeing Ws if player renegs. Lets be honest most of this NIL has nothing to do with companies or entities making an investment and expecting a ROR

 

[ru66]

Athletics are like music and art programs in our schools. Their need is intrinsically important and valuable to one's makeup.

 

[Plum Street]

Were you watching college sports for the pure fact that some illogical rules made it so that they couldn’t be paid? I think you’ll be on the board 5 years from now regardless.

he’s another boy crying wolf .