Literally everything. He’s better at literally every aspect of the game than he was the first time he stepped on the court for us. And yes there is no way to separate out the impact of coaching vs experience, but it doesn’t change the fact.
Noah is a Bust
- Thread starter RAC93
- Start date
I have a different view of player improvement and development than most people who use stats only
I see the players impact on the game, basketball IQ, making others better around him, taking games over, being the man in big spots.
Don’t see it.
We’re not talking about an also ran player.
Is not Cliff considered among the best centers in the country…. Do you believe he’s playing like one?
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I've heard this from a couple of people lately - that the only measure of improvement is if someone can be "the man" or whatever. You can be a lot better than you were, and still not be that elite/all-star player.
Omoruyi is not a guy who is going to take over games by himself - and I don't think he ever will be. He's a far far far better complementary piece than he was when he showed up at Rutgers, but that doesn't mean he's the guy who is going to be your dominant, go-to scorer that "takes over games".
Right now he's struggling because late transfer-portal departures have hamstrung this team, and it's currently dysfunctional while a new normal is being sorted out. It remains to be seen if a new normal even can be sorted out - but he's been more absent from the offense, as our guards can't figure out how to get him the ball and won't shoot when he kicks it back to them on the perimeter.
Looking at last year vs. this year (partial), adjusted for minutes [I also edited the prior comment - mistyped a couple of stats, last year he actually had 17.4 pts/40 not 15.3, and had 2.8 blk not 4.9]
2022-23: 17.4 pts (13.7 FGA, .507 FG%, 5.6 FTA, .604 FT%), 12.6 rb, 1.2 ast, 0.8 stl, 2.8 blk, 2.4 tov, 3.5 pf
2023-24: 15.8 pts (11.3 FGA, .514 FG%, 6.6 FTA, .635 FT%), 13.2 rb, 0.8 ast, 0.7 stl, 4.9 blk, 2.1 tov, 3.8 pf
He's getting 2.5 fewer shots per game (guards can't get him the ball), he's getting fouled more often because defenses are keying on him, and he's getting fewer assists (guards aren't shooting when the ball is kicked).
2022-23: 17.4 pts (13.7 FGA, .507 FG%, 5.6 FTA, .604 FT%), 12.6 rb, 1.2 ast, 0.8 stl, 2.8 blk, 2.4 tov, 3.5 pf
2023-24: 15.8 pts (11.3 FGA, .514 FG%, 6.6 FTA, .635 FT%), 13.2 rb, 0.8 ast, 0.7 stl, 4.9 blk, 2.1 tov, 3.8 pf
He's getting 2.5 fewer shots per game (guards can't get him the ball), he's getting fouled more often because defenses are keying on him, and he's getting fewer assists (guards aren't shooting when the ball is kicked).
Except for maybe one alley oop per game on average, prior backcourts couldn't deliver him the ball leading to buckets either. He never could catch or shoot underneath.
He's completely unskilled with the ball in his hands. This isn't a guard issue. It's a Cliff issue.
All this talk about players getting better or not, one thing that is not in dispute is this:
Pikiell brought in under-recruited players to a school nobody wanted any part of, and turned our basketball program into a B1G contender and NCAA tournament team.
Geo, Ron, Caleb, and oh yeah, remember Myles Johnson? Even JY had his best years under Pike.
Steve’s whole approach is better effort, better defense, better team. We played more talented teams close until the end game when our finishers like Geo and Ron could take over.
What many on these boards seem to be stuck on is that our expectations have increased every year under Pikiell. This was going to be a transition year defensively without Caleb, but losing Cam and Paul at the 11th hour meant we were gonna struggle even more, so meeting or exceeding expectations has been near impossible this year.
Still a long way to go, and anything can happen. What I see, despite our struggles, is a coaching staff that has put its players in a position to win most games, with defensive effort and open looks that are just not falling enough to win against better competition right now.
Ever the optimist, I’m hopeful that we can still turn this season around.
Pikiell brought in under-recruited players to a school nobody wanted any part of, and turned our basketball program into a B1G contender and NCAA tournament team.
Geo, Ron, Caleb, and oh yeah, remember Myles Johnson? Even JY had his best years under Pike.
Steve’s whole approach is better effort, better defense, better team. We played more talented teams close until the end game when our finishers like Geo and Ron could take over.
What many on these boards seem to be stuck on is that our expectations have increased every year under Pikiell. This was going to be a transition year defensively without Caleb, but losing Cam and Paul at the 11th hour meant we were gonna struggle even more, so meeting or exceeding expectations has been near impossible this year.
Still a long way to go, and anything can happen. What I see, despite our struggles, is a coaching staff that has put its players in a position to win most games, with defensive effort and open looks that are just not falling enough to win against better competition right now.
Ever the optimist, I’m hopeful that we can still turn this season around.
Sure, [guy] has improved in every statistical category but by golly do I just FEEL like he hasn't gotten better. And I can DEFINITELY remember very clearly what my eye test was telling me about [guy] back in 2020.
Yup.
Simpson and Hyatt occasionally take it upon themselves to take a game over.
Is that to much to ask from an All B1G center?
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I agree that a player doesn't just get worse by arriving at RU. I always look for reasons why someone gets worse. My guess is something changed in his life That new thing is the recent arrival of a newborn. Could he be sharing night feeding duties with his significant other. Tell me how an athlete performs when exhausted constantly.
I believe there is something to this. Changing schools, recovering from an injury and having a newborn child is a lot to deal with.
We have heard over several seasons now how Cliff has worked and improved on different aspects of his game .Sadly he really does not create nor has he developed any real offensive moves or an outside shot. Cliff is a shot blocker yet he has digressed as a rebounder running hot n cold. If you are considered an NBA draft candidate (as a center ) you had better have a low post game. Guys like Bailey, Hinson had a low post game. We can’t just blame Cliff… blame the man in charge who was caught way off guard by defections of Paul and Spencer.
They can not be amateurs and we make a decision to not put peoples names into thread titles. We could do both. Your choice. Just as a fan base, and a forum, I will try to not do that going forward. I don't want to blow people up, and players do look at this forum.
Personally, my feelings are:
This is big time basketball. It is okay to single out and discuss players as long as we are discussing their play on the court and not veering into general insults and personal attacks.
This is big time basketball. It is okay to single out and discuss players as long as we are discussing their play on the court and not veering into general insults and personal attacks.
IF you took the time to look at what I was replying to you would see the answer.
The post was something like "no player develops and gets better in college and they leave with what they had".
My response had nothing to do with records or team or making a tourney. It was 3 examples off the top of my 48 year's of observation of Rutgers bball.
I was there for all of their careers. You can provide your opinions as to why they got better but that doesn't change the fact that they did.
I'm sure I can statistically find plenty of more examples but not going to waste my time because numbers don't lie and the group here just want to insert "buts and considerations".
but here's a quick look at DS... I know I know. His 3 pt shooting % went up from 29.5% first three years to 45% senior year because they moved the line back...and he doubled his scoring avg because he played in the BE that last year who's SOS was 10.6 (not shown on this chart) vs. 5-6 each of first 3 years . oh wait, what?
| ason | School | Conf | Class | G | GS | MP | FG | FGA | FG% | 2P | 2PA | 2P% | 3P | 3PA | 3P% | FT | FTA | FT% | ORB | DRB | TRB | AST | STL | BLK | TOV | PF | PTS | SOS | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1991-92 | Rutgers | A-10 | FR | 30 | 10 | 19.8 | 1.6 | 4.7 | .336 | 0.9 | 2.5 | .360 | 0.7 | 2.2 | .308 | 0.8 | 1.4 | .581 | 2.4 | 2.0 | 0.8 | 0.2 | 1.1 | 1.2 | 4.6 | 4.78 | |||
| 1992-93 | Rutgers | A-10 | SO | 28 | 28 | 32.1 | 2.9 | 6.9 | .420 | 2.4 | 5.5 | .435 | 0.5 | 1.4 | .359 | 2.4 | 2.9 | .840 | 2.7 | 4.4 | 1.0 | 0.1 | 2.5 | 2.1 | 8.7 | 6.38 | |||
| 1994-95 | Rutgers | A-10 | JR | 28 | 19 | 26.3 | 2.6 | 7.4 | .356 | 2.0 | 4.9 | .413 | 0.6 | 2.5 | .243 | 1.6 | 2.5 | .620 | 2.6 | 3.0 | 0.7 | 0.0 | 2.3 | 1.1 | 7.5 | 4.92 | |||
| 1995-96 | Rutgers | Big East | SR | 27 | 33.9 | 6.0 | 14.3 | .421 | 3.4 | 8.4 | .410 | 2.6 | 5.9 | .438 | 2.5 | 3.5 | .723 | 3.5 | 3.0 | 0.9 | 0.1 | 17.2 |
Get it now? It was just a FACTUAL example of a player at Rutgers getting better .
please don't take my statistical approach as somebody who doesn't believe in the eye test, my personal knowledge of the game/experience, or those other things you noted. Just that since this site is filled with so many different opinions and debates on "if the sun is out" I figured the numbers don't lie approach would help. As I've admitted many times being a dope to think that would matter.
My POV FWIW. Is Cliff better than when he came here? Absolutely. Is he as good as I think he should be right now..from a total package standpoint absolutely not. Significant gaps to his skill set. And it is not all his fault. (hence another example of my coaching frustration).
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What would you have been saying about this guy / his coaches at the end of his junior year?
you mean what DID I say? We he was playing on a crappy team in the A10 (6th-7th place) so I really didn't have too much of an individual focus because it was the coach (Wenzel) who's team's dropped off the court for multiple seasons and I thought he should go (which he did after the next season).
And lastly. What is your point?
Maybe, maybe not. But it's also completely off the ****ing topic which is whether he's better now than when he started. It has nothing to do with whether he meets your expectations.
My point is that you have no coherent point. You've dug though the annals of ancient history (you had to go back almost thirty years to find a good example??) to find one guy who took a big jump his senior year, but you (1) have no explanation for why this trajectory is desirable (this guy sucked for three years so he could have room to improve as a senior, yay?) and (2) ignore the fact that if this guy was here under Pike you'd be excoriating his lack of development at ANY point prior to his senior year.
Like this guy was bad for three years and good for one year and you're so blinded by the point you're trying to make (Pike bad) that you somehow think this is BETTER than playing well for three years even if year four isn't that much better than year two.
Biggest changes for Santiago as a senior were FGA, 3PA and 3P%, along with about a 30% increase in mpg from junior to senior year. The guys ahead of him graduated, and he had to take the shots that previously had been taken by Jones/Karner/James.
This is the crux of it - it's not that he hasn't improved, it's that he hasn't met your expectations. That's a totally different argument - it's not that he hasn't shown growth, it's that you want him to be even better than that and blame coaching for him not matching the fantasy center you have in your mind's eye.
This x1000. Is Cliff as good today as most of us would’ve hoped in March 2020? No, probably not. But is he better than when he got here? Super obviously yes and anyone arguing otherwise is really difficult to take seriously.
some serious crazy ass assumptions you got there. laughable bud. but you go with it. you can have the last word.
some truth to that but they were the same minutes as a junior. I would suggest it all came down to taking and making many more three's.
Did you miss the part where his minutes increased 30% from Junior to Senior year? The biggest change, though, was that we lost our other guard options, and he had to put the ball up much more often.
He put up almost as many threes as a senior as he had in the prior 3 years combined.
I make assumptions because you can't EXPLAIN wtf you're talking about. Like, do we need to go full socratic method..
Question: What are you trying to demonstrate by comparing the stats of this guy to, for example, Geo Baker's?
OK, it went from his play this year being down to now it is just "showing growth" from when he stepped onto the banks to not meeting personal expectations. Impossible argument to make.
If you guys don't think he isn't having a tough year relative to his 3rd team B1G award last year (Top 16 player!) and pre-season All B1G going into this year including Naismith TOP 50 National Player and Jabbar Award (top 20 center). I guess we'll have to see how he fairs vs. the top BB folk's expectations season end.
Sorry. I can't help it cause you can't follow post replies to other's. Go read my response to Beast to get your answer.
correct. I meant his Soph year. And you can take all the shots you want but you have to make them too. Which is why I pointed out his 3pt % went from 29 in first 3 seasons combined to 43% in last year.
It's kinda funny how the post you directed me to here starts the same way.. it's almost like no one can follow your argument. It might be a you problem.
Oh good, now I have to go further up the chain to decipher this BS... and JFC, this all started with a reply to some nonsense that Shelby said? Ok, yeah, Shelby's post is moronic. I thought these tables were supposed to support this other post you made in the thread:
Are they NOT meant to support this post? Are they NOT meant to support the notion that none of these players improved?
In his soph year, he largely didn't shoot.
He played 32.1 mpg and appeared in all 28 games, and only had 6.9 FGA.... he'd have been crucified on this board for that. People were mad that Mulcahy didn't shoot... and he had 7.3 FGA in 32.4 mpg. People are currently mad that Fernandes doesn't pull the trigger... and he's averaging 7.6 in 27.1 mpg.
He also put up a total of just 39 3PA in 28 games, which is a tiny sample size. Per 40 minutes, Santiago put up just 1.7 3PA in his sophomore year to 7.0 in his senior season (more than 4x as many).
As a senior, the other guards disappeared and he was asked to step up and be the shooter. Generally when you see big jumps from a player it's because they've seen a big jump in opportunity (large increase in minutes or shots) - which holds true here.
The way I see it……..
2 primary reasons for underperformance
1. Cliff not bringing energy and being the leader he needed to be. He is taking off way too many possessions
2. Guards inability/refusal to pass
If you look at my preseason predictions there were question marks. The one constant was Cliff. That hasnt happened.
2 primary reasons for underperformance
1. Cliff not bringing energy and being the leader he needed to be. He is taking off way too many possessions
2. Guards inability/refusal to pass
If you look at my preseason predictions there were question marks. The one constant was Cliff. That hasnt happened.
See that's why like your contributions. At least you're a thinker.
(With all due respect to flux man He's ok too)
You guys best brain treatment for an old guy.
Lol well I guess I agree with you then, whoops.
To be honest I still think it's your fault.. no one should respond to Shelby 😛
Breakthrough. I don't ever recall a " whoops" lol. Nice. Kumba ya my friend.
I’m okay with “Noah has been a bust.” Not yet ready for “is a bust.”
I would expect our featured big man to demand the ball. Then again, I would expect our big man to develop a 5-8ft. jump shot. Gotta be fundamentally sound in a few aspects of the game. There are spots on the floor between under the rim and behind the 3pt. line. Use them.
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