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Offense next year

Shell21

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Mar 23, 2004
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This goes without saying, but there needs to be a complete overhaul in offensive philosophy starting today. Obviously having Dylan and Ace will help tremendously and they will be able to create shots on their own and for others just by them being potential lottery players. But, we can't just expect two freshman to bail us out time after time because our offense sucks and our players don't have offensive IQ and an offensive identity to fall back on.

I think it was Snagg that posted what UConn runs and it is crazy the amount of off ball movement and lack of the ball sticking they have in their offense. Now that is an extreme example and we don't have to do exactly that but it has to be somewhere inbetween that and what we currently do (middle pick and roll) and stand around off the ball. We need way more off ball movement to occupy the weak side and give our handlers other options besides having to create off the high pick and roll. Having more shooters will obviously help as well but you have to make the defense move and then attack closeouts or hopefully get a defensive mistake because they have to guard multiple actions off the ball. I don't really understand year after year that we don't consistently run action that is repeatable and flows.

For example, the Daily Targum writer had a great point in his tweet after the game which I've been saying for at least a year. We set up to run something (high horns or zoom action; both action, we do try to start to run some things once in awhile) and then the other teams take away the initial read (duh, this is college basketball where they know what you are going to do and scout you). Then, we have no counter action to flow into and the possessions then end up in iso or a predictable middle or high ball screen. The kids either have no IQ or there is no offensive coach or teacher getting these kids to understand what to do or flow into when teams take away your first or second read. At the high school level we teach this so I find it hard to believe at the D1 college level they can't get the kids to flow into other actions or counters where the ball doesn't stick and we stand around. This also isnt exclusive to this year etiher, we just didn't have better players to bail us out. Something has got to give in the offseason and pike and the assistants need to look at themselves and self scout. If we were playing defense on our offense, how easy would it to be for us to guard and why. Then, figure out what offenses are hard to guard and why, and how we can mesh it with our personnel next year. Other coaches and teams are able to do this, why not us?
 
Part of that is our lack of talent, though. Like we don’t have the dexterity to make counter reads and punish defenses.

Like yes, we have ideological issues on offense, but also we’re generating the same quality looks as Wisconsin, Houston, Nebraska, Kentucky and Washington State. The explanatory variable there is talent.

 
Part of that is our lack of talent, though. Like we don’t have the dexterity to make counter reads and punish defenses.

Like yes, we have ideological issues on offense, but also we’re generating the same quality looks as Wisconsin, Houston, Nebraska, Kentucky and Washington State. The explanatory variable there is talent.

I agree on the talent issue and I'm not saying we don't get open shots, but this is not an issue only linked to this year. Our offense efficiency has been going down the last four years. Talent definitely has something to do with it, but also lack of offensive IQ and being able to teach and produce counters and off ball movement and action is limited.
 
This goes without saying, but there needs to be a complete overhaul in offensive philosophy starting today. Obviously having Dylan and Ace will help tremendously and they will be able to create shots on their own and for others just by them being potential lottery players. But, we can't just expect two freshman to bail us out time after time because our offense sucks and our players don't have offensive IQ and an offensive identity to fall back on.

I think it was Snagg that posted what UConn runs and it is crazy the amount of off ball movement and lack of the ball sticking they have in their offense. Now that is an extreme example and we don't have to do exactly that but it has to be somewhere inbetween that and what we currently do (middle pick and roll) and stand around off the ball. We need way more off ball movement to occupy the weak side and give our handlers other options besides having to create off the high pick and roll. Having more shooters will obviously help as well but you have to make the defense move and then attack closeouts or hopefully get a defensive mistake because they have to guard multiple actions off the ball. I don't really understand year after year that we don't consistently run action that is repeatable and flows.

For example, the Daily Targum writer had a great point in his tweet after the game which I've been saying for at least a year. We set up to run something (high horns or zoom action; both action, we do try to start to run some things once in awhile) and then the other teams take away the initial read (duh, this is college basketball where they know what you are going to do and scout you). Then, we have no counter action to flow into and the possessions then end up in iso or a predictable middle or high ball screen. The kids either have no IQ or there is no offensive coach or teacher getting these kids to understand what to do or flow into when teams take away your first or second read. At the high school level we teach this so I find it hard to believe at the D1 college level they can't get the kids to flow into other actions or counters where the ball doesn't stick and we stand around. This also isnt exclusive to this year etiher, we just didn't have better players to bail us out. Something has got to give in the offseason and pike and the assistants need to look at themselves and self scout. If we were playing defense on our offense, how easy would it to be for us to guard and why. Then, figure out what offenses are hard to guard and why, and how we can mesh it with our personnel next year. Other coaches and teams are able to do this, why not us?
Outstanding response,This season's team lacked talent/shooters and a half court system that attacked opponents defense. The scouting report simply said stop Cliff from dunks.
 
If there are 4 variables

1. Shooter making shots
2. Shooter taking shots
3. Players making/willing to make right pass
4. Offensive plays/philosophy/coaching

2 is the highest
1 is not far behind
3 is a big issue, but no where near 2 and 1
4 is a small problem

Regarding #1...not much to say other than I think/know our defensive intensity definitely has an impact
Regarding #2...cant' have a 2 guard get lightly contested looks all game long and not take them (Davis last night)
Regarding #3...can't have Jwill attacking the elbow and having a wide open Gavin an easy 10 foot bounce pass away and not pass it. I think everyone knows Gavin can shoot and his teammates treat him as if he was Cliff on the perimeter
 
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If there are 4 variables

1. Shooter making shots
2. Shooter taking shots
3. Players making/willing to make right pass
4. Offensive plays/philosophy/coaching

2 is the highest
1 is not far behind
3 is a big issue, but no where near 2 and 1
4 is a small problem

Regarding #1...not much to say other than I think/know our defensive intensity definitely has an impact
Regarding #2...cant' have a 2 guard get lightly contested looks all game long and not take them (Davis last night)
Regarding #3...can't have Jwill attacking the elbow and having a wide open Gavin an easy 10 foot bounce pass away and not pass it. I think everyone knows Gavin can shoot and his teammates treat him as if he was Cliff on the perimeter
Where does pulse rate fit in this calculus?

LOL, just having a little fun with you.
 
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Where does pulse rate fit in this calculus?

LOL, just having a little fun with you.
it is in #1...it is there! mixed in with the defensive intensity.

Ace and Dylan need to be in the best shape of their lives and should be in the weight room NOW. Like right now!
 
it is in #1...it is there! mixed in with the defensive intensity.

Ace and Dylan need to be in the best shape of their lives and should be in the weight room NOW. Like right now!
All kidding aside, although high school players don’t generally play as intense defense as they will in college (especially under Pike), these types of stars almost never come off the court in high school games. So they’re playing 30+ minutes, and so they will be used to playing fatigued.
 
All kidding aside, although high school players don’t generally play as intense defense as they will in college (especially under Pike), these types of stars almost never come off the court in high school games. So they’re playing 30+ minutes, and so they will be used to playing fatigued.
Dylan and Ace are playing 30-32 minutes and they are not exerting much energy on defense. They play hard every other possession PLUS offense doesn't require the same intensity as D.

Dylan is going to go from playing D against a kid you would find at your local Y to having to chase Tominaga around the court.
 
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Part of that is our lack of talent, though. Like we don’t have the dexterity to make counter reads and punish defenses.

Like yes, we have ideological issues on offense, but also we’re generating the same quality looks as Wisconsin, Houston, Nebraska, Kentucky and Washington State. The explanatory variable there is talent.

We must be in that lower left quadrant bc of all the mid range 2s we take😂
 
We have had 3 complete offensive players in the Pike era and a 4th that finished that way.

Geo Baker
RHJ
Jacob Young
Corey Sanders

Everyone else had a major PLUS or MINUS in their offensive fundamentals.

Do we have any players in this year's roster that start for every single Top 20 roster elsewhere?? As much as people try and explain that Cam Spencer is some sort of high level talent, he's ultimately a player who doesn't generate his own shot or doesn't have the ability to get to the basket, 1 on 1.

We will have at a minimum 5 players next year, who are complete basketball players on offense. Ace, Dylan, Lathan, JWill and TBD incoming commit. Then if Gavin takes the next step in development, we will have 6....the hope is, the other portal additions and Dortch and Grant, make it a full roster of actual complete players.
 
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We had guys consistently getting open and taking shots when they should’ve realized (1) there’s a reason I’m open — the defense wants me to take this shot and (2) I can’t make this shot anyway so I should drive or pass.
 
it is in #1...it is there! mixed in with the defensive intensity.

Ace and Dylan need to be in the best shape of their lives and should be in the weight room NOW. Like right now!
I believe Dylan has been in the weight room he is way more jacked than he was in previous years; the one who needs to be in the weight room is Gavin and he needs to hit it hard he just gets pushed around way too easy amongst other things
 
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This goes without saying, but there needs to be a complete overhaul in offensive philosophy starting today. Obviously having Dylan and Ace will help tremendously and they will be able to create shots on their own and for others just by them being potential lottery players. But, we can't just expect two freshman to bail us out time after time because our offense sucks and our players don't have offensive IQ and an offensive identity to fall back on.

I think it was Snagg that posted what UConn runs and it is crazy the amount of off ball movement and lack of the ball sticking they have in their offense. Now that is an extreme example and we don't have to do exactly that but it has to be somewhere inbetween that and what we currently do (middle pick and roll) and stand around off the ball. We need way more off ball movement to occupy the weak side and give our handlers other options besides having to create off the high pick and roll. Having more shooters will obviously help as well but you have to make the defense move and then attack closeouts or hopefully get a defensive mistake because they have to guard multiple actions off the ball. I don't really understand year after year that we don't consistently run action that is repeatable and flows.

For example, the Daily Targum writer had a great point in his tweet after the game which I've been saying for at least a year. We set up to run something (high horns or zoom action; both action, we do try to start to run some things once in awhile) and then the other teams take away the initial read (duh, this is college basketball where they know what you are going to do and scout you). Then, we have no counter action to flow into and the possessions then end up in iso or a predictable middle or high ball screen. The kids either have no IQ or there is no offensive coach or teacher getting these kids to understand what to do or flow into when teams take away your first or second read. At the high school level we teach this so I find it hard to believe at the D1 college level they can't get the kids to flow into other actions or counters where the ball doesn't stick and we stand around. This also isnt exclusive to this year etiher, we just didn't have better players to bail us out. Something has got to give in the offseason and pike and the assistants need to look at themselves and self scout. If we were playing defense on our offense, how easy would it to be for us to guard and why. Then, figure out what offenses are hard to guard and why, and how we can mesh it with our personnel next year. Other coaches and teams are able to do this, why not us?
Eddie Jordan was a great offensive coach. Pike is concerned with winning. His team do many of the things to it takes to win. His biggest issue was talent this year. Many of us saw that before the season started. Every coach has their own style of how they want to play. Pike wants to lock up on defense (which is elite) and then get out in transition to score on the break. In today’s college basketball, that is a great way to play in my opinion. He needs the players to do it and this year he did not have them. There will be a ton of roster turnover for every team moving forward. Complex offensive schemes will be difficult to teach with roster turnover. I keep hearing fans say we need to change the offense. I would not expect any changes other than more talented players making plays.
 
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We have had 3 complete offensive players in the Pike era and a 4th that finished that way.

Geo Baker
RHJ
Jacob Young
Corey Sanders

Everyone else had a major PLUS or MINUS in their offensive fundamentals.

Do we have any players in this year's roster that start for every single Top 20 roster elsewhere?? As much as people try and explain that Cam Spencer is some sort of high level talent, he's ultimately a player who doesn't generate his own shot or doesn't have the ability to get to the basket, 1 on 1.

We will have at a minimum 5 players next year, who are complete basketball players on offense. Ace, Dylan, Lathan, JWill and TBD incoming commit. Then if Gavin takes the next step in development, we will have 6....the hope is, the other portal additions and Dortch and Grant, make it a full roster of actual complete players.
Your Cam takes are awful.
Calling JWill a complete offensive player is ridiculous. Then four other guys who have never stepped foot on a college court. Didn't you say the same about Gavin last year? Dortch and Grant are basically Mag as recruits, now they are complete players but Mag is awful?
 
Dylan and Ace are playing 30-32 minutes and they are not exerting much energy on defense. They play hard every other possession PLUS offense doesn't require the same intensity as D.

Dylan is going to go from playing D against a kid you would find at your local Y to having to chase Tominaga around the court.
I hear you. But bear in mind when I say Dylan and Ace are playing 32 minutes a game, THAT'S EVERY MINUTE OF THE GAME in high school (8-minute quarters). They're playing the entire game.

So even though they might not be playing as intensely as a college player would, they're never coming off the court, which is really hard even when you're not playing as intensely.
 
I hear you. But bear in mind when I say Dylan and Ace are playing 32 minutes a game, THAT'S EVERY MINUTE OF THE GAME in high school (8-minute quarters). They're playing the entire game.

So even though they might not be playing as intensely as a college player would, they're never coming off the court, which is really hard even when you're not playing as intensely.
In the game i watched DB coach actually gave Dylan a rest right before the end of the 1st quarter….that is pulling hair. My bigger takeaway is more the intensity on the court and not the raw minutes played.

I think Dylan will be more ready defensively than Ace. I am worried about Dylan’s conditioning at the moment.
 
It should very interesting next year. Let’s just hope they all show up as planned and don’t wind up someplace else. Anything is a possibility in this age of NIL.
 
It should very interesting next year. Let’s just hope they all show up as planned and don’t wind up someplace else. Anything is a possibility in this age of NIL.
Yeah. The guys coming into your program don't show any signs of wavering, but in general, who knows until they show up and enroll...
 
Part of that is our lack of talent, though. Like we don’t have the dexterity to make counter reads and punish defenses.

Like yes, we have ideological issues on offense, but also we’re generating the same quality looks as Wisconsin, Houston, Nebraska, Kentucky and Washington State. The explanatory variable there is talent.

Right.

Pike is probably a below average offense coach. But not THAT much below average. And he makes up for that by being a way above average defense coach. The major issue for the offense this season was talent
 
We have had 3 complete offensive players in the Pike era and a 4th that finished that way.

Geo Baker
RHJ
Jacob Young
Corey Sanders

Everyone else had a major PLUS or MINUS in their offensive fundamentals.

Do we have any players in this year's roster that start for every single Top 20 roster elsewhere?? As much as people try and explain that Cam Spencer is some sort of high level talent, he's ultimately a player who doesn't generate his own shot or doesn't have the ability to get to the basket, 1 on 1.

We will have at a minimum 5 players next year, who are complete basketball players on offense. Ace, Dylan, Lathan, JWill and TBD incoming commit. Then if Gavin takes the next step in development, we will have 6....the hope is, the other portal additions and Dortch and Grant, make it a full roster of actual complete players.
Imagine thinking the highest rated offensive player in the country isn't a complete offensive player
 
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In the game i watched DB coach actually gave Dylan a rest right before the end of the 1st quarter….that is pulling hair. My bigger takeaway is more the intensity on the court and not the raw minutes played.

I think Dylan will be more ready defensively than Ace. I am worried about Dylan’s conditioning at the moment.
I hear you, but isn't this likely true of EVERY top ten kid? The rest of them seem to figure it out...

That's not to say there won't be some growing pains with Dylan and Ace, but I think you are overstating it.
 
We missed a billion wide open spots this year. Pikes " system" was not the issue....

That’s a big part of it obviously- our players just couldn’t shoot!!!

But come on - anyone watching can see RU doesnt run an offense like many others teams. LOTS of iso
 
I hear you, but isn't this likely true of EVERY top ten kid? The rest of them seem to figure it out...

That's not to say there won't be some growing pains with Dylan and Ace, but I think you are overstating it.
All other Top 10 kids don't play at RU. Our defensive requirements are different than most other schools.
 
We missed a billion wide open spots this year. Pikes " system" was not the issue....
We had a lot of wide open shots because our opponents knew we couldnt shoot, and gave us those wide open shots in order to take away anything inside. We were baited into taking a lot of these shots and missed them, as they expected. If we had shown we could convert these, teams would have played us differently.
 
This goes without saying, but there needs to be a complete overhaul in offensive philosophy starting today. Obviously having Dylan and Ace will help tremendously and they will be able to create shots on their own and for others just by them being potential lottery players. But, we can't just expect two freshman to bail us out time after time because our offense sucks and our players don't have offensive IQ and an offensive identity to fall back on.

I think it was Snagg that posted what UConn runs and it is crazy the amount of off ball movement and lack of the ball sticking they have in their offense. Now that is an extreme example and we don't have to do exactly that but it has to be somewhere inbetween that and what we currently do (middle pick and roll) and stand around off the ball. We need way more off ball movement to occupy the weak side and give our handlers other options besides having to create off the high pick and roll. Having more shooters will obviously help as well but you have to make the defense move and then attack closeouts or hopefully get a defensive mistake because they have to guard multiple actions off the ball. I don't really understand year after year that we don't consistently run action that is repeatable and flows.

For example, the Daily Targum writer had a great point in his tweet after the game which I've been saying for at least a year. We set up to run something (high horns or zoom action; both action, we do try to start to run some things once in awhile) and then the other teams take away the initial read (duh, this is college basketball where they know what you are going to do and scout you). Then, we have no counter action to flow into and the possessions then end up in iso or a predictable middle or high ball screen. The kids either have no IQ or there is no offensive coach or teacher getting these kids to understand what to do or flow into when teams take away your first or second read. At the high school level we teach this so I find it hard to believe at the D1 college level they can't get the kids to flow into other actions or counters where the ball doesn't stick and we stand around. This also isnt exclusive to this year etiher, we just didn't have better players to bail us out. Something has got to give in the offseason and pike and the assistants need to look at themselves and self scout. If we were playing defense on our offense, how easy would it to be for us to guard and why. Then, figure out what offenses are hard to guard and why, and how we can mesh it with our personnel next year. Other coaches and teams are able to do this, why not us?
Shell, excellent post. Just to note, I was also one of the posters who always mentioned Danny Hurley's offense. Great ball movement. Great spacing, high/low screens, cuts, and quick reversals. I would love it if Pike adopted even 60% of that. One can have an elite defense along with a good offense. That IMO puts your team in the top 10 in the nation. As we have seen, our elite defense didn't help us overcome one of the worst offenses in the nation. And that's not fully on the kids either. That's bad coaching on the offensive end and that needs to stop now before going into the new season.
 
Shell, excellent post. Just to note, I was also one of the posters who always mentioned Danny Hurley's offense. Great ball movement. Great spacing, high/low screens, cuts, and quick reversals. I would love it if Pike adopted even 60% of that. One can have an elite defense along with a good offense. That IMO puts your team in the top 10 in the nation. As we have seen, our elite defense didn't help us overcome one of the worst offenses in the nation. And that's not fully on the kids either. That's bad coaching on the offensive end and that needs to stop now before going into the new season.
It takes talent and great coaching to perform at the UConn level.They can win at low scoring grind out games or light up the score board scoring 95 points at MSG.
 
It takes talent and great coaching to perform at the UConn level.They can win at low scoring grind out games or light up the score board scoring 95 points at MSG.
Watching UConn now they are constantly moving, passing and cutting with a purpose. We stand around and pass around the horn. We have no offensive purpose, it's like night and day. I have no idea what Pike does in practice on the offensive end except roll out a ball.
 
It also said let them shoot 3s.

I think a lot of the "it's not the offensive scheme. We get open shots but miss them" is missing this part.

Teams know we can't shoot 3s.
We've been st the bottom of Big Ten 3pt shooting for years.

I would wager most of our "open 3s" are by defensive design.
"Don't worry about leaving an open wing shooter. We want them to take those shots."

This is why we do little off ball movement but still get open shots.
We aren't generating the shots. The defense is giving them to us.
 
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We had a lot of wide open shots because our opponents knew we couldnt shoot, and gave us those wide open shots in order to take away anything inside. We were baited into taking a lot of these shots and missed them, as they expected. If we had shown we could convert these, teams would have played us differently.
Well, it seems to me that Rutgers couldn't make layups at a decent rate either. Or midrange shots. Or even free throws.
Honestly, it's hard to recall a team that had so much difficulty scoring. Except against Michigan.
 
This goes without saying, but there needs to be a complete overhaul in offensive philosophy starting today. Obviously having Dylan and Ace will help tremendously and they will be able to create shots on their own and for others just by them being potential lottery players. But, we can't just expect two freshman to bail us out time after time because our offense sucks and our players don't have offensive IQ and an offensive identity to fall back on.

I think it was Snagg that posted what UConn runs and it is crazy the amount of off ball movement and lack of the ball sticking they have in their offense. Now that is an extreme example and we don't have to do exactly that but it has to be somewhere inbetween that and what we currently do (middle pick and roll) and stand around off the ball. We need way more off ball movement to occupy the weak side and give our handlers other options besides having to create off the high pick and roll. Having more shooters will obviously help as well but you have to make the defense move and then attack closeouts or hopefully get a defensive mistake because they have to guard multiple actions off the ball. I don't really understand year after year that we don't consistently run action that is repeatable and flows.

For example, the Daily Targum writer had a great point in his tweet after the game which I've been saying for at least a year. We set up to run something (high horns or zoom action; both action, we do try to start to run some things once in awhile) and then the other teams take away the initial read (duh, this is college basketball where they know what you are going to do and scout you). Then, we have no counter action to flow into and the possessions then end up in iso or a predictable middle or high ball screen. The kids either have no IQ or there is no offensive coach or teacher getting these kids to understand what to do or flow into when teams take away your first or second read. At the high school level we teach this so I find it hard to believe at the D1 college level they can't get the kids to flow into other actions or counters where the ball doesn't stick and we stand around. This also isnt exclusive to this year etiher, we just didn't have better players to bail us out. Something has got to give in the offseason and pike and the assistants need to look at themselves and self scout. If we were playing defense on our offense, how easy would it to be for us to guard and why. Then, figure out what offenses are hard to guard and why, and how we can mesh it with our personnel next year. Other coaches and teams are able to do this, why not us?
Honest question, what offensive system works if you don't have any consistent threats from 3, or any players with a reliable post scoring move? I'll definitely implement that in my kids 10U league for some easy buckets.
 
It takes talent and great coaching to perform at the UConn level.They can win at low scoring grind out games or light up the score board scoring 95 points at MSG.
Agreed. But regardless, I like Harley’s offense going back to him coaching at Rhode Island.
 
Clearly the RU coaches couldn't come up with the magically efficient offensive system that could generate 80 points per game with players who couldn't shoot 3s, make layups, or score from the post, midrange, or in transition. I'm sure this imaginary "Offensive Coordinator" that people want Pike to hire could have turned this group into the Durant/Curry/Thompson Warriors without anybody developing any actual skills.
 
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