That’s a comical statement. Again, what is more probable, a natural mutation of a virus or someone working with an engineered virus in a BL2, BL3 or BL4 facility?
OT: Anyone familiar with these professors?
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Fauci has proven over and over he is a liar. He and Collins openly conspired in e-mails to "take down" esteemed scientists who disagreed with their positions. They abused their powerful governmental positions to stifle and silence scientific debate. Fauci had the audacity to declare "I am science." A frightening megalomaniac. The LA Times and NYT promote and support garbage science theories. The science writer for the NYT Apoorva (sp?) M is a joke who writes poorly supported narrative-based nonsensical "articles." Some people suffer terribly from confirmation bias, degree or no degree.
‘I am the Science” says it all. Never question his authority.
At the jump (or when it a got a little worse than thought) China shut down internally. But only those from Wuhan were allowed to travel internationally.Two countries, plus foreign and domestic agencies have been hiding things from the git.
They get busted lying often
Fauci denied NIH funding Wuhan and then admitted it did.
FBI and Dept of Energy supported leak
Fauci's NHI was also involved - in Montana - with infecting Bats with a Wuhan virus in 2018.
Report reveals Fauci's NIH infected bats with coronavirus 5 years ago
US taxpayer money was used to experiment with coronaviruses from the Chinese lab thought to be the source of the Covid pandemic more than a year before the global outbreak.www.dailymail.co.uk
There has long been a discussion about a CV-19 like illness that began circulating after a global military event in Wuhan. Studies have supported that earlier outbreak - in October 2019. If someone wanted to spread a virus an event like that would have been attractive.
The impact of the World Military Games on the COVID-19 pandemic
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Personally I believe the lab leak (Israeli bio-weapon expert said as much after first weeks of Wuhan outbreak) and I don't think it was an accident. Some social leaders in China have said the virus was used to suppress Hong Kong protests raging out of control. CCP didn't want another Tienanmen.
Its also overlooked that Xi and CCP declared a "people's war" on US on 2019.
Experts say Xi never forgot how Reagan tipped the USSR into a break-up.
He feared the same thing being done to China and Trump spooked him
China practices mercantilism on US.
US fights back - "oops" a virus show-up after CCP war declaration.
Then a vaccine is rushed-out and now studies say there's a need for inhaled powder modality because intramuscular vaccines do not work for mucosal infections.
Development of mucosal vaccine delivery: an overview on the mucosal vaccines and their adjuvants
Currently, mucosal infectious diseases are still a very high global health burden, but there are few effective vaccines to prevent mucosal-borne diseases. The development of mucosal vaccines requires the selection of appropriate antigens, delivery system ...
Then it turns out the synthetic spike proteins are a poison that the body cant turn off - and they travel the whole body and don't stay in the injection site as first declared. Add how therapeutics declared "safe" for decades were suddenly made monstrous. The denial of therapeutics effectively used around the world is another scandal. Mandates could only be used legally if no therapeutics existed so "poof" they vanished. "Warp Speed" protocol had only elderly getting jabbed and others getting therapeutics
"We have established the role of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, especially the S1 subunit, as pathogenic. It is also now apparent that widely biodistributed spike proteins, produced by mRNA and adenovectorDNA gene codes, induce a wide variety of diseases."
‘Spikeopathy’: COVID-19 Spike Protein Is Pathogenic, from Both Virus and Vaccine mRNA
The COVID-19 pandemic caused much illness, many deaths, and profound disruption to society. The production of ‘safe and effective’ vaccines was a key public health target. Sadly, unprecedented high rates of adverse events have overshadowed ...
Where did they go? Many went to Milan to work in the leather industry as the Chinese were laborers there. Lots of back and forth flights.
Milan to other parts of Europe, UK, US and the rest of the world.
Isn't there enough uncertainty for either side of this to make that claim?
You could be a true believer of lies and deception if you think numbers is wrong just as much as you think he is.
However, that is not what I was interested in when I posted.
If anyone had these professors, I was wondering what types of personality traits they had. Not if they were smart but how did they interact with the people they taught in your view?
BINGO! There are two yearly fashion shows in Milan and that became an epicenter for COVID in November 2019.
I think advocating for the lab leak theory is fine. These two did nothing wrong by suggesting or even supporting the lab leak theory.
But the way these two went about it is pretty over the top. And we should note that in demeaning other researchers and calling them liars, these two have produced no hard evidence proving themselves right and the researchers they insulted wrong.
But the way these two went about it is pretty over the top. And we should note that in demeaning other researchers and calling them liars, these two have produced no hard evidence proving themselves right and the researchers they insulted wrong.
Have you not paid to attention to what has come out of Faucis mouth and his emails...i wonder why
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That's funny you replied to me and not numbers, who threw the first stone and called me some kind of believer in conspiracy theories. That's what one side does- they cast aspersions, call names, yell something about MAGA, tinfoil hat BS to deflect from the real issue. I said my piece early in this thread. Everyone would be best served if both sides of this kerfuffle had an open debate in a university auditorium with scientists invited to attend in the audience. Nothing is accomplished with anti-social media rants and stone-throwing. But, unfortunately, that is where we are today. And one side was perfectly happy letting the government put their thumb on the misinformation social media lock down scale. Truly Orwellian stuff. I also think numbers is a nice fellow, has good musical taste and make great weather threads. It's OK that we disagree, but there was no reason for him to throw out the "conspiracy theory" label when, as you pointed out, he could be in the same camp and wrong himself. Nothing will be resolved in this thread.
As to your question, some people provided some information above.
Have a nice day. I like you and your posts.
Probably not but I am also not inclined to believe two professors who have decided the best way to debate this issue is browbeat and insult other researchers because they have a differing opinion.
So as he said, they all probably deserve each other.
Even if it was absolutely a non-lab leak, there is little chance China was going to open their doors for an investigation that would have proved it was a natural spread.
I don't think you can apply, "If you have nothing to hide why didn't you invite us in to show us?" logic with China.
Dr. Robert Redfield was head of the CDC at the time of the pandemic. He had his doubts about the wet market theory, masks and social distancing. Fauci recently stated there was no evidence to support the 6ft rule.
It’s unfortunate that he was pushed aside in a power play.
Redfield on the origins of COVID-19
It’s unfortunate that he was pushed aside in a power play.
Redfield on the origins of COVID-19
The fact China knew there was a virus and still allowed it to travel out of country has been specified as a main reason to seek damages from China. Aside from that the US would have to explain why it was innocent considering its role in assisting gain-of-function manipulation.
Pompeo was leading a State Dept investigation into Wuhan but "The Big Guy" shut it down prematurely citing "quality of evidence". He then had his own investigation that determined "we can't know."
Alas many experts in genetic manipulation show that SARS-CoV-2 has amino acid sequencing at furin cleavage site that is not natural (yellow area in below illustration). When a Kia turns-up with a BMW engine nobody can claim its from the factory.
Lancet:
"So far, a viable natural origin for the SARS-CoV-2 S1–S2 site through recombination or mutation of a bat-origin virus has proved to be elusive. Of note, the S1–S2 cleavage site of SARS-CoV-2 S does not comprise the pattern found in prototypical furin cleavage sites (it is RRxR and not RxK/RR), making its origin enigmatic. "
SARS-CoV-2 spike and its adaptable furin cleavage site
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www.thelancet.com
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www.cnn.com
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There were no confirmed cases in Italy until 2/21/20 and given how the number of cases went from 0 to 8000 in 2 weeks, causing the country to shut down on 3/9/20, and to over 60,000 in one month (and those numbers are likely way undercounted due to lack of testing capability), to propose that COVID was in Milan (which was the epicenter for COVID in Italy) in November 2019 is incredulous.
If there had been an outbreak there in Nov-19, there's no reason to think that the exponential growth trajectory would have been different than what was seen in Feb-20 and beyond, meaning Italy would likely have been shut down by sometime in Dec-20. Just about every location saw similar trajectories once the virus started spreading.
IIRC, there were a lot of Chinese in Italy who returned home for Chinese New Year, which I believe was late January- early February. China hadn't shut down or done much of anything to reduce exposure. More than likely they brought back Covid to Italy.
I didn't mention any dates.
All I said was you could leave from Wuhan. And that a lot of those that left did go to Milan because of their jobs in the leather industry.
You clearly don't know how to do on-line scientific research. It's true that many virologists were puzzled by the spike protein's furin cleavage site in SARS-CoV-2 early on in the pandemic, but the article you cited didn't say any of the things you said in your post, plus the same author, 2 years later, after learning volumes more about the virus, had this to say:The fact China knew there was a virus and still allowed it to travel out of country has been specified as a main reason to seek damages from China. Aside from that the US would have to explain why it was innocent considering its role in assisting gain-of-function manipulation.
Pompeo was leading a State Dept investigation into Wuhan but "The Big Guy" shut it down prematurely citing "quality of evidence". He then had his own investigation that determined "we can't know."
Alas many experts in genetic manipulation show that SARS-CoV-2 has amino acid sequencing at furin cleavage site that is not natural (yellow area in below illustration). When a Kia turns-up with a BMW engine nobody can claim its from the factory.
Lancet:
"So far, a viable natural origin for the SARS-CoV-2 S1–S2 site through recombination or mutation of a bat-origin virus has proved to be elusive. Of note, the S1–S2 cleavage site of SARS-CoV-2 S does not comprise the pattern found in prototypical furin cleavage sites (it is RRxR and not RxK/RR), making its origin enigmatic. "
SARS-CoV-2 spike and its adaptable furin cleavage site
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www.thelancet.com
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www.cnn.com
SARS-CoV-2 has continued to evolve as it moves through the population, and we have learned more about its pathogenicity and transmission determinants. As previously commented in The Lancet Microbe, one of these determinants is the unusual furin cleavage site (FCS) on its spike protein. While it has been proposed that the FCS might have been engineered, it is becoming clearer that natural selection is, in fact, the driving factor in its acquisition and functionality, through recombination and epistasis.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(23)00144-1/fulltext
In addition, the few scientists who ran with the FCS equalling lab engineered SARS-2, including Dr. Baltimore, all backtracked on that once it became clear that these FCSs weren't nearly as unusual as postulated in the very early days of the pandemic. That's how science works. Scientists propose a variety of hypotheses (including lab eng'g SARS-2) and do the hard work to evaluate them and in this case, every virologist I've read has said that the FCS is NOT an indication of a lab eng'g virus. I posted about all of this on the pandemic science threads in mid-2021, so nothing new here.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/14/science/covid-lab-leak-fauci-kristian-andersen.html
That's correct. Clearly workers/travelers from China seeded infections across the planet starting in Feb-20, not in November 2019.
Ebright is a bright guy and a Howard Hughes investigator as I recall, but he is also a prick and thinks he is always right no matter the subject. I had his wife as a TA twice for organic chem discussion back in the late 80s and did lab work down the hall from his lab in Waksman at the time. Ebright also hates college sports and rails incessantly about Rutgers spending on athletics. The attached article is very similar to his rants about college athletics in that he digs in, thinks he knows more than anyone else and then throws a hissy fit when anyone disagrees,
I believe this answers the original question
But let's be clear. No matter what the origins of the disease the Chinese were grossly, probably criminally negligent.
Look, you're a smart guy and we agree on most of the science in the Pharma realm, but you have no way to know what my experience has been. If you're saying I lack hands on experience in biosafety labs, that's mostly true, but I have a wealth of experience in designing, testing and installing labs/manufacturing trains aimed at safely handling OEB4/5 potent small/large molecule compounds, i.e., those requiring full isolation to protect workers from highly potent/toxic compounds (e.g., unidirectional personnel flow, use of gloveboxes/glovebags, utlization of negative pressure airflows, designing decontamination procedures or use of disposable single-use equipment, etc.) and to protect against release of such compounds that could lead to cross-contamination of other products. Biosafety and potent compound safety are very similar with regard to such designs in labs and larger facilities.
I also did key work demonstrating the effectiveness of N95 masks in achieving high efficiency removal of micron and sub-micron particulates (similar to virus particles) of specific potent compounds, allowing personnel to use such masks as secondary protection (rather than requiring SCBAs) when working with such compounds with strong primary protection engineering controls, such as laminar flow hoods and subdivision consoles. And if you're talking about general GLP, in my last 2-3 years at Merck, I was the API rep to a team rewriting our entire quality system and procedures for the small molecule area within R&D with reps from facilities, labs, formulation, analytical, chemistry, eng'g, etc. Way more than "no hands-on experience."
100% - said that earlier and have been saying it since February 2020.
Face it we all were used as test subjects to satisfy a desire by those in the bio weaponry areas of the CCP and USA who were more directly worked hand in hand. Some very bad actors and yet we still have defenders of the Pharma Industry. By the way there is no such thing as long term effects from Covid 19. Another made up piece of real misinformation used as a fear factor.
So you're saying the author I quoted changed his mind? So I was in-line with first comments.
Alas many researchers and media (including NYT) were going with the lab leak (as the FBI still supports). A concerted effort by CCP's DC branch to squash investigation dovetailed nicely with drug maker's shens - and the globalist cartels who love the virus for its bureaucracy expanding benefits. A real clue to context of virus is the spectacular global oppression that rose. They want those global passports bad (and WHO is CCP 's ho)
Most people have come to realize how much the gov/media hive lies and obfuscates. They spent two years telling us Ukraine was winning and the border is secure. What would Occam's razor discern when a virus appears in near a sloppy CCP bio-weapons lab that has US ties?
"Jamie Metzl, a former Clinton administration national security official, writes in The Wall Street Journal that “suggesting that an outbreak of a deadly bat coronavirus coincidentally occurred near the only level 4 virology institute in all of China—which happened to be studying the closest known relative of that exact virus—strains credulity.”
FBI chief Christopher Wray says China lab leak most likely
FBI chief Christopher Wray says China lab leak most likely
Other US agencies have come to different conclusions from the FBI on how the pandemic began.
www.bbc.com
China created COVID-19 as a 'bioweapon,' Wuhan researcher claims
China created COVID-19 as a 'bioweapon,' Wuhan researcher claims
Chao Shao asserts that the virus was deliberately engineered by China as a "bioweapon," and that his colleagues were tasked with identifying the most effective strain for spreading.
www.jpost.com
You're out of your depth here. The author didn't just "change his mind" (which implies someone who picks vanilla, but then changes his choice to chocolate on a whim), he painstakingly kept gathering new scientific information on the virus, including detailed evaluations of the evolution of the viral genome from Wuhan through omicron, and concluded that the weight of scientific evidence went from not being sure of the potential for this to be an engineered virus to having a strong opinion that the virus was the product of natural selection. Very different from "changing his mind."So you're saying the author I quoted changed his mind? So I was in-line with first comments.
Alas many researchers and media (including NYT) were going with the lab leak (as the FBI still supports). A concerted effort by CCP's DC branch to squash investigation dovetailed nicely with drug maker's shens - and the globalist cartels who love the virus for its bureaucracy expanding benefits. A real clue to context of virus is the spectacular global oppression that rose. They want those global passports bad (and WHO is CCP 's ho)
Most people have come to realize how much the gov/media hive lies and obfuscates. They spent two years telling us Ukraine was winning and the border is secure. What would Occam's razor discern when a virus appears in near a sloppy CCP bio-weapons lab that has US ties?
"Jamie Metzl, a former Clinton administration national security official, writes in The Wall Street Journal that “suggesting that an outbreak of a deadly bat coronavirus coincidentally occurred near the only level 4 virology institute in all of China—which happened to be studying the closest known relative of that exact virus—strains credulity.”
FBI chief Christopher Wray says China lab leak most likely
FBI chief Christopher Wray says China lab leak most likely
Other US agencies have come to different conclusions from the FBI on how the pandemic began.
China created COVID-19 as a 'bioweapon,' Wuhan researcher claims
China created COVID-19 as a 'bioweapon,' Wuhan researcher claims
Chao Shao asserts that the virus was deliberately engineered by China as a "bioweapon," and that his colleagues were tasked with identifying the most effective strain for spreading.
The rest of your post is a diarrheic word salad of little value. And no, people should not be relying on the FBI for their assessment of the source of a virus novel to this planet. Go with the virologists.
Still sounds like he's singing a new tune. It doesn't take a lot of depth to see what's been going on - just like the vaxx and the border that's been ripped open on purpose. MaGoo comes to DC and "slam" the investigation is stopped. Then a faux investigation cherishing "mystery" comes on after a few weeks. Very treacherous chapter!
Biden shut down effort to prove theory COVID originated from Wuhan lab
Joe Biden's team ended a State Department investigation into the Wuhan laboratory as a possible source of the COVID-19 pandemic, CNN reported on Tuesday night.
Officially sacked - sure there must be a scientific "evidence backed" explanation.
But that’s the point. You had to side with the favored voices in order to be heard. Dissenting views where not tolerated. Just look at how Redfield was pushed to the background. The CDC should have been out front leading the COVID response.
Fauci never said "I am science." What he said was far more nuanced, but his enemies took what he said out of context and distilled it down to something he didn't even say and have weaponized and you guys have bought into it, hook, line and sinker, as KS likes to say. Here's the interview with context. Him saying that when they're criticizing him as the public face of the government's pandemic efforts, they're essentially criticizing science, because he does "represent" science to so many. Much different from the excoriations around the false quote "I am science," which if true would be megalomaniacal.
I was critical of Fauci multiple times, especially with regard to his original stance on masks, which was just flat out wrong, as I knew and said in early March 2020. But then again, he was kind of in a very tough spot with a CINC who vacillated from saying it would just "disappear" to proposing all kinds of ridiculous treatments for the infection and running a clown show of a pandemic response (apart from Operation Warp Speed). I never questioned Fauci's desire to do what was right for public health, though and overall I thought he did a very good job in that regard, in the face of huge uncertainties. Plus, he was constantly saying how we "couldn't be sure" about so many aspects of the pandemic, since we just didn't have the data. Just look at the interview I linked where he admitted to not knowing the answers to numerous questions. Doesn't sound like someone who "knew all the answers" and was a megalomaniac to me, anyway.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcript-dr-anthony-fauci-on-face-the-nation-november-28-2021/
So if they get up and criticize science, nobody's going to know what they're talking about. But if they get up and really aim their bullets at Tony Fauci, well, people could recognize there's a person there. There's a face, there's a voice you can recognize, you see him on television. So it's easy to criticize, but they're really criticizing science because I represent science. That's dangerous. To me, that's more dangerous than the slings and the arrows that get thrown at me. I'm not going to be around here forever, but science is going to be here forever. And if you damage science, you are doing something very detrimental to society long after I leave. And that's what I worry about.
