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OT: Aviation Question

RutgersRaRa

RutgersRaRa

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Mar 21, 2011
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I live about seven miles (as the crow flies) from Teterboro Airport, and am almost directly under their route as they are climbing. These are all jets (aside from the occasional prop), and appear to be an assortment of private jets and some smaller commercial. Today I was at a park eating a sandwich, which gave me a broadside view of their ascents, and those things are ascending and accelerating rapidly, or so it appears. Based on observed altitudes, they all seem to be within a certain range that may be based more on regulations (flight paths and power-up/noise restrictions) than mechanical limitations.

So my three-part question is based on regulations being in place: seven miles from the airport, A) what is the approximate speed of the aircrafts; B) what is their altitude; and C) what is their rate of climb?

Based on my observations, it looks as though they're traveling around 250mph, climbing at a rate greater than 100 feet/second (which still blows my mind, even though it pales in comparison to the Mig, for example), and at around 10k feet. I also know that those numbers could be seriously far off since I have no basis of comparison other than watching Mr. Screw get out of the Yellow Lot before the game's over. TIA.
 
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There are many rules.

First there's the rule that aircraft may not exceed 250 mph below 10,000' in controlled airspace.

There are also rules that apply to altitude within different types of controlled airspace - mainly the different types of airspace that's drawn around airports, but in reality that applies more to planes descending or traversing than those which are ascending.

You didn't say which runway, direction, etc. If you provide that, I can look up the Instrument Departure procedure and let you know exactly where they're supposed to be, when.
 
RU4Real said:
There are many rules.

First there's the rule that aircraft may not exceed 250 mph below 10,000' in controlled airspace.

There are also rules that apply to altitude within different types of controlled airspace - mainly the different types of airspace that's drawn around airports, but in reality that applies more to planes descending or traversing than those which are ascending.

You didn't say which runway, direction, etc. If you provide that, I can look up the Instrument Departure procedure and let you know exactly where they're supposed to be, when.
Click to expand...
They are headed west on takeoff.
 
RutgersRaRa said:
They are headed west on takeoff.
Click to expand...

The departure procedure for Runway 24 is:

Maintain Runway Heading (240) to 1500 feet, then turn right to 280, cross TEB VOR (4.5 nm from runway threshold) at 1500', then climb to 2000', then resume normal navigation (i.e. at that point they're no longer under Teterboro's control.

Practically speaking, at that point they would contact New York Departure Control for navigation instructions through the remainder of the Class B airspace around all the NY area airports. The upper limit of the Class B (and the lower limit of the Class E airspace over & around it) is 7000'. From the handoff between TEB and NY Dep there are two options to get out of NY Dep and into NY Center - either navigate below 7000' and exit the airspace at the edge, or continue climbing and exit the airspace through the top.

It's likely that what you're seeing is that latter. In other words, after getting handed off to NY Departure, an aircraft might have the following conversation:

- Good afternoon, Gulfstream 2399 Kilo with ya, 2000'.

- Afternoon, Gulfstream 99 Kilo, squawk 1644 and ident.

- Squawking 1644, Gulfstream 99 Kilo.

- Gulfstream 99 Kilo, Roger. Maintain heading, climb and maintain 10,000, contact New York Center 133.2.

- Maintaining 280, climb and maintain 10,000, contact Center 133.2, Gulfstream 99 Kilo, g'day.

And that's that.

How fast they get from 2000 to 10,000 is "pilot's discretion", as long as they stay under 250 mph until they get there (and in reality, they have some leeway with that). Something like a Gulfstream could do that 8,000 foot climb, comfortably, in about 3-4 minutes but in reality (because everybody wants to save fuel) it would be 5 or 6.
 
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RU4Real said:
The departure procedure for Runway 24 is:

Maintain Runway Heading (240) to 1500 feet, then turn right to 280, cross TEB VOR (4.5 nm from runway threshold) at 1500', then climb to 2000', then resume normal navigation (i.e. at that point they're no longer under Teterboro's control.

Practically speaking, at that point they would contact New York Departure Control for navigation instructions through the remainder of the Class B airspace around all the NY area airports. The upper limit of the Class B (and the lower limit of the Class E airspace over & around it) is 7000'. From the handoff between TEB and NY Dep there are two options to get out of NY Dep and into NY Center - either navigate below 7000' and exit the airspace at the edge, or continue climbing and exit the airspace through the top.

It's likely that what you're seeing is that latter. In other words, after getting handed off to NY Departure, an aircraft might have the following conversation:

- Good afternoon, Gulfstream 2399 Kilo with ya, 2000'.

- Afternoon, Gulfstream 99 Kilo, squawk 1644 and ident.

- Squawking 1644, Gulfstream 99 Kilo.

- Gulfstream 99 Kilo, Roger. Maintain heading, climb and maintain 10,000, contact New York Center 133.2.

- Maintaining 280, climb and maintain 10,000, contact Center 133.2, Gulfstream 99 Kilo, g'day.

And that's that.

How fast they get from 2000 to 10,000 is "pilot's discretion", as long as they stay under 250 mph until they get there (and in reality, they have some leeway with that). Something like a Gulfstream could do that 8,000 foot climb, comfortably, in about 3-4 minutes but in reality (because everybody wants to save fuel) it would be 5 or 6.
Click to expand...
So they are most likely at around 7k feet and 240mph seven miles out?
 
RU4Real said:
The departure procedure for Runway 24 is:

Maintain Runway Heading (240) to 1500 feet, then turn right to 280, cross TEB VOR (4.5 nm from runway threshold) at 1500', then climb to 2000', then resume normal navigation (i.e. at that point they're no longer under Teterboro's control.

Practically speaking, at that point they would contact New York Departure Control for navigation instructions through the remainder of the Class B airspace around all the NY area airports. The upper limit of the Class B (and the lower limit of the Class E airspace over & around it) is 7000'. From the handoff between TEB and NY Dep there are two options to get out of NY Dep and into NY Center - either navigate below 7000' and exit the airspace at the edge, or continue climbing and exit the airspace through the top.

It's likely that what you're seeing is that latter. In other words, after getting handed off to NY Departure, an aircraft might have the following conversation:

- Good afternoon, Gulfstream 2399 Kilo with ya, 2000'.

- Afternoon, Gulfstream 99 Kilo, squawk 1644 and ident.

- Squawking 1644, Gulfstream 99 Kilo.

- Gulfstream 99 Kilo, Roger. Maintain heading, climb and maintain 10,000, contact New York Center 133.2.

- Maintaining 280, climb and maintain 10,000, contact Center 133.2, Gulfstream 99 Kilo, g'day.

And that's that.

How fast they get from 2000 to 10,000 is "pilot's discretion", as long as they stay under 250 mph until they get there (and in reality, they have some leeway with that). Something like a Gulfstream could do that 8,000 foot climb, comfortably, in about 3-4 minutes but in reality (because everybody wants to save fuel) it would be 5 or 6.
Click to expand...

Well done RU4Real! Resume own navigation.
 
RU4Real said:
Seems about right. Ya know, there's an app for that, if you're really interested.
Click to expand...
Not necessary, this info was enough to satisfy my wonderings. When I took a few private-pilot lessons decades ago, we took the C-152 to 2,500 feet and trained there. He said the craft would go to 10k feet, and I asked him if we could do that one day, and he said it would take essentially the entire hour to get to that altitude. Ever since then I've been occasionally intrigued with specifics. And don't get me started on the SR-71....
 
RUforester72 said:
I liked "no joy"!
Click to expand...

Yeah, that was a good one. Although truth be told, it brings back a sketchy memory.

I was doing my long XC and the second leg took me through Pax River's airspace. I was cool with that, because around here you get real used to talking to the McGuire guys, even when you're no-plan VFR. What I wasn't cool with was the Pax River guy calling out "2 A-10s, your 9:00". I looked, I didn't see, I keyed my mic and said "No joy" and half a second later they crossed 300' in front of me - one 100' below me and the other 100' above. My 152 actually shook.
 
RutgersRaRa said:
Not necessary, this info was enough to satisfy my wonderings. When I took a few private-pilot lessons decades ago, we took the C-152 to 2,500 feet and trained there. He said the craft would go to 10k feet, and I asked him if we could do that one day, and he said it would take essentially the entire hour to get to that altitude. Ever since then I've been occasionally intrigued with specifics. And don't get me started on the SR-71....
Click to expand...

The 152 is actually rated to 13,6 as I recall. I did a trip from Princeton to Salisbury MD at 10, once. It's kind of a weird feeling because at that altitude a 152's IAS at cruise is only about 75 knots, which isn't a whole lot above stall. The plane starts to feel like it doesn't really want to be there.
 
RU4Real said:
The 152 is actually rated to 13,6 as I recall. I did a trip from Princeton to Salisbury MD at 10, once. It's kind of a weird feeling because at that altitude a 152's IAS at cruise is only about 75 knots, which isn't a whole lot above stall. The plane starts to feel like it doesn't really want to be there.
Click to expand...
The 152 is basically a Volkswagen with wings, and a quarter inch of plastic to keep you in while doing medium-steep banks.
 
But that plane was when I discovered how stable aircraft are. Commercial planes are so well built it's almost silly.

Now the way they're maintained can be another issue, but given that they pretty much never crash attests to their durability and reliability.
 
I thought this was going to be a discussion about wether it is ok to go #2 on an airplane.
 
RutgersRaRa said:
But that plane was when I discovered how stable aircraft are. Commercial planes are so well built it's almost silly.

Now the way they're maintained can be another issue, but given that they pretty much never crash attests to their durability and reliability.
Click to expand...

To their operators, airplanes are like guns - respect them, follow the rules, pay attention. Do those things and nothing bad will ever happen to you.

The interesting thing, to me (and which very subtly contradicts your first statement), was how different examples of the same airplane could be so characteristically different.

There was a 152 in the club that I used to LOVE to screw around in because for some unfathomable reason it was incapable of a deep stall. You could throttle it back and start to slowly ease back on the wheel to slow it down and it would maintain a perfect 5 degree nose-up attitude the entire time - even after it had stalled and was falling out of the sky.
 
RU4Real said:
To their operators, airplanes are like guns - respect them, follow the rules, pay attention. Do those things and nothing bad will ever happen to you.

The interesting thing, to me (and which very subtly contradicts your first statement), was how different examples of the same airplane could be so characteristically different.

There was a 152 in the club that I used to LOVE to screw around in because for some unfathomable reason it was incapable of a deep stall. You could throttle it back and start to slowly ease back on the wheel to slow it down and it would maintain a perfect 5 degree nose-up attitude the entire time - even after it had stalled and was falling out of the sky.
Click to expand...
Don't know if I never want to fly with you or only want to fly with you...
 
RU4Real said:
To their operators, airplanes are like guns - respect them, follow the rules, pay attention. Do those things and nothing bad will ever happen to you.

The interesting thing, to me (and which very subtly contradicts your first statement), was how different examples of the same airplane could be so characteristically different.

There was a 152 in the club that I used to LOVE to screw around in because for some unfathomable reason it was incapable of a deep stall. You could throttle it back and start to slowly ease back on the wheel to slow it down and it would maintain a perfect 5 degree nose-up attitude the entire time - even after it had stalled and was falling out of the sky.
Click to expand...
I was relieved to discover that the FAA (or some governing body) discontinued stall training shortly before my flying lessons. It turned out that (and this subtly points to the veracity of your earlier point) that more people were dying during the training stalls than stalls during ordinary flying.
 
RutgersRaRa said:
I was relieved to discover that the FAA (or some governing body) discontinued stall training shortly before my flying lessons. It turned out that (and this subtly points to the veracity of your earlier point) that more people were dying during the training stalls than stalls during ordinary flying.
Click to expand...

And you now have a generation of commercial pilots who have lost aircraft due to an inability to demonstrate basic piloting skills.

The marquis example of this is Air France 447. Asiana 214 is another pretty good one.
 
RU4Real said:
And you now have a generation of commercial pilots who have lost aircraft due to an inability to demonstrate basic piloting skills.

The marquis example of this is Air France 447. Asiana 214 is another pretty good one.
Click to expand...
That may have only been for small-craft training. Commercial is probably different, especially with the availability of simulator training.
 
RutgersRaRa said:
That may have only been for small-craft training. Commercial is probably different, especially with the availability of simulator training.
Click to expand...

You don't do stall training in commercial aircraft. The simulator training programs get hammered by the NTSB with every significant incident.

Seriously - the guys flying AF447 made a stunning sequence of errors. Their inability to recognize what was happening to the aircraft is a pristine indictment of their training. All the basic indications of airframe stall were right there in the cockpit with them. They rode that thing into the ocean.
 
RU4Real said:
You don't do stall training in commercial aircraft. The simulator training programs get hammered by the NTSB with every significant incident.

Seriously - the guys flying AF447 made a stunning sequence of errors. Their inability to recognize what was happening to the aircraft is a pristine indictment of their training. All the basic indications of airframe stall were right there in the cockpit with them. They rode that thing into the ocean.
Click to expand...
Power up, opposite rudder. If it's still the same, it seems like they panicked.
 
RutgersRaRa said:
Power up, opposite rudder. If it's still the same, it seems like they panicked.
Click to expand...

Heavy aircraft have a subtly different relationship with the pitch/power curve. Because they're so accustomed to autopilot operations and because they don't get a lot of training to the contrary, they have a tendency to assume that pointing the nose up = climb.

Attitude = airspeed. Power = altitude. That's the only way it works.
 
Flightradar24 app.
gives you all the info on flight to and from pretty neat app
When they fly overhead you will know what aircraft it is where its going and when its coming back
 
RU4Real said:
The departure procedure for Runway 24 is:

Maintain Runway Heading (240) to 1500 feet, then turn right to 280, cross TEB VOR (4.5 nm from runway threshold) at 1500', then climb to 2000', then resume normal navigation (i.e. at that point they're no longer under Teterboro's control.

Practically speaking, at that point they would contact New York Departure Control for navigation instructions through the remainder of the Class B airspace around all the NY area airports. The upper limit of the Class B (and the lower limit of the Class E airspace over & around it) is 7000'. From the handoff between TEB and NY Dep there are two options to get out of NY Dep and into NY Center - either navigate below 7000' and exit the airspace at the edge, or continue climbing and exit the airspace through the top.

It's likely that what you're seeing is that latter. In other words, after getting handed off to NY Departure, an aircraft might have the following conversation:

- Good afternoon, Gulfstream 2399 Kilo with ya, 2000'.

- Afternoon, Gulfstream 99 Kilo, squawk 1644 and ident.

- Squawking 1644, Gulfstream 99 Kilo.

- Gulfstream 99 Kilo, Roger. Maintain heading, climb and maintain 10,000, contact New York Center 133.2.

- Maintaining 280, climb and maintain 10,000, contact Center 133.2, Gulfstream 99 Kilo, g'day.

And that's that.

How fast they get from 2000 to 10,000 is "pilot's discretion", as long as they stay under 250 mph until they get there (and in reality, they have some leeway with that). Something like a Gulfstream could do that 8,000 foot climb, comfortably, in about 3-4 minutes but in reality (because everybody wants to save fuel) it would be 5 or 6.
Click to expand...
RU4Real, any way to listen in on ATC radio chatter for the NYC area? I'm always amazed listening to those guys do their thing.
 
drewbagel423 said:
RU4Real, any way to listen in on ATC radio chatter for the NYC area? I'm always amazed listening to those guys do their thing.
Click to expand...

There are a couple of smartphone apps that aggregate various scanner feeds, which may or may not include ATC traffic. I have one of the apps but I've never gone looking for the ATC stuff.

The problem with listening to ATC is that you can pretty much always hear the aircraft but unless the receiver you're using is really close to a relay transmitter, you have a hard time hearing the controllers.
 
Bagarocks said:
Flightradar24 app.
gives you all the info on flight to and from pretty neat app
When they fly overhead you will know what aircraft it is where its going and when its coming back
Click to expand...
This sounds pretty cool. I might have to check it out.
 
RutgersRaRa said:
I was relieved to discover that the FAA (or some governing body) discontinued stall training shortly before my flying lessons. It turned out that (and this subtly points to the veracity of your earlier point) that more people were dying during the training stalls than stalls during ordinary flying.
Click to expand...

To get a private pilot certificate power off and power on stalls are required. They are also required prior to becoming a solo student pilot. See part 61.87.

If a CFI isn't constantly discussing stall awareness (i.e., maintaining appropriate speeds) and recovery, it is probably time to get a new CFI.
 
Wolv RU said:
To get a private pilot certificate power off and power on stalls are required. They are also required prior to becoming a solo student pilot. See part 61.87.

If a CFI isn't constantly discussing stall awareness (i.e., maintaining appropriate speeds) and recovery, it is probably time to get a new CFI.
Click to expand...

Since I haven't stayed current on training requirements, I didn't comment specifically on RaRa's statement, but if Part 61 still requires stall training then that's a good thing.

Of course, way back when it also required spin training. When I got my ticket, spin training was no longer required although I had a CFI who was kind enough to oblige.
 
My first father in law had a J-3 Cub and he demonstrated stall/spin and recovery for me. My CFI did not. Stall recognition is pretty damned important!
 
RUforester72 said:
My first father in law had a J-3 Cub and he demonstrated stall/spin and recovery for me. My CFI did not. Stall recognition is pretty damned important!
Click to expand...

It's recognizable and noteworthy, I think, that the enjoyment of such things is inversely proportional to the size of the airplane. I used to love fooling around in 152s. Skyhawks, not so much. A friend of mine had a 182 that I used to fly from time to time and it was way too ponderous for anything other than cruising.
 
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