OT - Christie's proposed school funding plan

[T2Kplus10]

It meets the constitutional requirement and the voucher process rewards success and punishes failure.

The genie is out of the bottle on money running through Trenton

Equal state aid is likely constitutional as well. There is a clause that essentially says - NJ income tax revenue has to be used to "equally" help the citizens on NJ. Most state aid is based on the income tax, so there is legal logic to make that claim. And once again, it will be interesting to see how the new Christie majority on the court rules.

 

[brianoc]

He has to be careful that he does not decimate the urban schools. Although I doubt this proposal is actually meant to pass. It is a political proposal to bludgeon democrats

 

[T2Kplus10]

He has to be careful that he does not decimate the urban schools. Although I doubt this proposal is actually meant to pass. It is a political proposal to bludgeon democrats

Watch tonight's Ask the Gov show, Christie talks about some interesting examples of what can work in urban districts and the current waste of money (first topic of the show):

 

[T2Kplus10]

In the past 30 years, NJ taxpayers have sent $97 billion to the Abbott school districts and overall results have not improved. Anyone see a problem and think it is time to try something new?

 

[dollarbill]

Unless the taxes are equalized somewhat, the mass exodus from the state will continue unabated. This is one way of accomplishing that. Besides, aren't the younger working people moving into these districts? Why do they need such a large excess in state aid? I can see a trend coming in which schools start to close and consolidate in areas such as Western Hunterdon County. The real estate market in some of these towns could resemble Lehigh Acres, Florida in 2007 at some point ( I know most of you are laughing at this statement). Watch carefully as it unfolds in front of us. $$$$

 

[loki_dog]

It's generally not the school, but the student. Those determined to take advantage of the opportunities presented to them thrive. Unfortunately, the absenteeism of parents in poorer districts makes this difficult.

 

[RUJohnny99]

So would you then say because they have high crime, the Newark and Camden PDs are there to provide jobs, not to keep their communities safe? Or this only applicable to teachers, but not other public workers?

If the resident to cop ratio was 9.5 to 1 like the student/faculty ratio of Asbury & 44% of the criminals were falling through the cracks, then yes I'd say the police department was just a jobs program too & needed to be disbanded & the residents should be absorbed by the neighboring town's police forces.

 

[brianoc]

In the past 30 years, NJ taxpayers have sent $97 billion to the Abbott school districts and overall results have not improved. Anyone see a problem and think it is time to try something new?

I agree with you

 

[DontTedonMe]

Unless there is an amendment to the New Jersey Constitution I believe it would be found unconstitutional.

The constitution requires EQUAL funding not 5X more than suburban districts

 

[brianoc]

It requires a "thorough and efficient system of education" for every student- not equal funding. The basics of the Abbotts comes down to if a wealthy district needs to spend x to educate kids from stable homes than it would require x plus to educate kids from areas of poverty and all the situations that go along with that.

Now you and I may not agree with that but money does matter. It is just money wasted is not the answer. That is why the State should define t and e and fund it entirely for the entire population of students in NJ. The wealthy towns will not like it and either will the poor towns.

 

[T2Kplus10]

It requires a "thorough and efficient system of education" for every student- not equal funding. The basics of the Abbotts comes down to if a wealthy district needs to spend x to educate kids from stable homes than it would require x plus to educate kids from areas of poverty and all the situations that go along with that.

Now you and I may not agree with that but money does matter. It is just money wasted is not the answer. That is why the State should define t and e and fund it entirely for the entire population of students in NJ. The wealthy towns will not like it and either will the poor towns.

You are right on what they past NJSC used for justification of the original Abbott ruling. But the language is not exact and up for interpretation. That's why I would love to see the new Christie NJSC revisit the case. I bet the ruling will be very different.

 

[Scarlet_Scourge]

Now you and I may not agree with that but money does matter. It is just money wasted is not the answer. That is why the State should define t and e and fund it entirely for the entire population of students in NJ. The wealthy towns will not like it and either will the poor towns.

Yet charter schools in these same arenas are doing great, better than most of the state in many areas with less money. The real answer is how these kids are taught period. The system is broken. Currently the extra money is being wasting on nonsense that doesn't help the kids.

The answer is not keeping things the way they are or giving them more money, the answer for them is changing the way they are being taught. All schools in those lower performing areas should be run like charter schools, it is not fair to kids there that they have to be lucky enough to win a lottery just to get a good education.

Meanwhile, the rest of the state kids are getting screwed, it is time to finally stop neglecting them and finally lower taxes for once.

 

[nick614]

Semi Related.

Making grades and progress private (FERPA) was one of the worst things to happen to public education. If you look worldwide where they don't spend nearly as much as we do and get much better results ( like Poland and others) they post everything publicly. Kids are encouraged to compete and there is social pressure to perform well in school, while it is the complete opposite here.

 

[LevaosLectures]

Why does it cost so much more money to fund schools in crappy cities? I'm guessing the money is not going to the students educations. $33,000 in some districts. Are you kidding me. Catholic schools don't charge that much. I like Christie's proposal.

Have you ever heard of property tax? Do you have any idea how schools are even funded?

There are some good reform ideas in this thread, from conservatives and liberals, but some people are just embarrassing themselves.

 

[LevaosLectures]

Yet charter schools in these same arenas are doing great, better than most of the state in many areas with less money. The real answer is how these kids are taught period. The system is broken. Currently the extra money is being wasting on nonsense that doesn't help the kids.

The answer is not keeping things the way they are or giving them more money, the answer for them is changing the way they are being taught. All schools in those lower performing areas should be run like charter schools, it is not fair to kids there that they have to be lucky enough to win a lottery just to get a good education.

Meanwhile, the rest of the state kids are getting screwed, it is time to finally stop neglecting them and finally lower taxes for once.

Do you really think the charters schools are doing anything special, pedagogically? Charters by their nature are going to have a stronger population of students, EVEN IF they are a straight lottery system. First, entering the lottery is a form of self-selection. Second, charters have known ways to get rid of low performing students. Just add these two factors together and you are basically guaranteeing better outcomes. I'm not saying there aren't good charter schools. There are good ones. (There are also ones that are barely better than a grift/skimming outfit). But let's not pretend they have some magic teaching pixie dust.

Long term improvement in the economic and social health of our cities is really the only way to improve urban public schools.

 

[LevaosLectures]

Camden gets $30,000 per student. This includes FIVE high schools with a total enrollment of 2,645 students.

Camden Catholic is $8,200 per year.

The state would save $57 mm just by giving every kid a full tuition scholarship to Camden Catholic every year.

And if every kid in Camden were going to Camden Catholic (and its new satellite campuses, because where would you put them), then Camden Catholic would just become the Camden School District by another name. It's not the schools. It's not the teachers. It's the cities themselves! Blame the FHA and redlining for starters.

 

[mdk01]

I'm all for going after administrators as a primary target but these cuts wiLL DECIMATE the teaching ranks in urban districts.


We both know it's not the teachers or the schools. The problem is segregation.

I don't buy that for a second. Just how do you account for the Harlem Success Academy, among other 90+% minority schools that DO have positive results.

 

[Rutgers1]

We both know it's not the teachers or the schools. The problem is segregation.

What are you, some f*cking relic from the 60's? Your failed idealogy has destroyed generations of inner city children. Time for you and your kind to be locked up and the key to be thrown away.

 

[RU_DIO]

Have you ever heard of property tax? Do you have any idea how schools are even funded?

There are some good reform ideas in this thread, from conservatives and liberals, but some people are just embarrassing themselves.

Umm. My 10,000.plus a year in property taxes funds my towns schools.for.my kids. I am tired of.my state taxes being wasted on school.districts.in urban areas because the funding is not used properly. But let's just keep taking the middle classes tax money and throwing it down the drain. There's a reason that it costs so much more.to.poorly educate an urban kid. It's a corrupt system.

Have you ever heard of property tax? Do you have any idea how schools are even funded?

There are some good reform ideas in this thread, from conservatives and liberals, but some people are just embarrassing themselves.

 

[LevaosLectures]

The constitution requires EQUAL funding not 5X more than suburban districts

Newsflash: schools are not funded in toto by the state.

What are you, some f*cking relic from the 60's? Your failed idealogy has destroyed generations of inner city children. Time for you and your kind to be locked up and the key to be thrown away.

what the hell are you blathering about? What ideology? Integration?

 

[LevaosLectures]

Umm. My 10,000.plus a year in property taxes funds my towns schools.for.my kids. I am tired of.my state taxes being wasted on school.districts.in urban areas because the funding is not used properly. But let's just keep taking the middle classes tax money and throwing it down the drain. There's a reason that it costs so much more.to.poorly educate an urban kid. It's a corrupt system.

You're in favor of a regressive funding mechanism because it would benefit you personally. My point about property taxes obviously flew right over your head.

 

[vkj91]

@LevaosLectures waiting for your response about how much money is enough money? If it's a failure of the cities and not the schools as you say what's the fix? How does wasting millions of dollars in these districts fix the cities?

 

[LevaosLectures]

I don't buy that for a second. Just how do you account for the Harlem Success Academy, among other 90+% minority schools that DO have positive results.

Really? That's your rebuttal? Harlem Success Academy and other charters get to control their student populations. It is not anything remotely like an honest comparison.

Here's a rebuttal to your rebuttal: open the yearbook of Weequhaic High School side by side with the yearbook from Millburn High School. These schools are about six miles apart.

 

[LevaosLectures]

@LevaosLectures waiting for your response about how much money is enough money? If it's a failure of the cities and not the schools as you say what's the fix? How does wasting millions of dollars in these districts fix the cities?

The fix is an integrated society. Nothing more, nothing less. In the meantime, decimating these school districts will only make things worse.

 

[gmay8]

My guess is LevaosLectures is a renter who doesn't pay property taxes and therefore doesn't care about how property tax money is spent.

 

[vkj91]

The fix is an integrated society. Nothing more, nothing less. In the meantime, decimating these school districts will only make things worse.

Explain what you mean by integrated society? Do you propose closing the abbot schools and busing the kids to better districts? You said it wasn't the schools or teachers so how would that help?

 

[mdk01]

Really? That's your rebuttal? Harlem Success Academy and other charters get to control their student populations. It is not anything remotely like an honest comparison.

Here's a rebuttal to your rebuttal: open the yearbook of Weequhaic High School side by side with the yearbook from Millburn High School. These schools are about six miles apart.

If what you mean is that they get to control their student population by stricter discipline the I agree, and wish those rules could be extended to public schools. If you mean by admission I disagree, as most charter schools admit by lottery. The only screening factor is the need for a dedicated parent.

Yes, Weequhaic falls short of Millburn, but for a whole lot of reasons besides race. And I'd put incompetent administration and hamstrung teachers (not their fault) ahead of race.

 

[BigLou]

My guess is LevaosLectures is a renter who doesn't pay property taxes and therefore doesn't care about how property tax money is spent.

Or he doesn't understand what Christie is saying bout school versus municipal taxes. Christie has pointed out that in districts getting high state aid, a larger % of the total tax bill is going to the municipal budget and creating wasteful spending at that level. In towns that get less per pupil state aid a smaller % of the total tax bill is going to the municipal side. His plan requires that the additional state funding be used not to increase school budgets or shift tax dollars from school to municipal but to reduce the school tax on homeowners tax bills.

 

[dvb91]

Really? That's your rebuttal? Harlem Success Academy and other charters get to control their student populations. It is not anything remotely like an honest comparison.

Here's a rebuttal to your rebuttal: open the yearbook of Weequhaic High School side by side with the yearbook from Millburn High School. These schools are about six miles apart.

Integration? LOL. If any of those from Weequahic actually achieve anything and make it into the middle class, they'll move out to the Millburns of this world. It's hard to teach when the prevalent culture is not big into education. That starts with the parents and money (or moving to the suburbs) won't change that.

 

[RU_DIO]

You're in favor of a regressive funding mechanism because it would benefit you personally. My point about property taxes obviously flew right over your head.

Wow,

I think the person who really doesn't get it is YOU!

People are disgusted with their tax money being wasted on a system that doesn't work.
All school districts should get a certain amount of money per student from the state for a basic education. If you want a better education, move to a town with a better school district like what most middle class people try to do.

There is no way in hell it should cost $33,000 to educate a child in any district. I would love to send my children to private catholic schools. I'm not aware of one in Ocean County which charges $33,000 for tuition. If private schools can do it for much less in a much nicer environment, why can't the shitty big city schools do it?

It's called corruption and mismanagement of funds.

 

[vkj91]

Wow,

I think the person who really doesn't get it is YOU!

People are disgusted with their tax money being wasted on a system that doesn't work.
All school districts should get a certain amount of money per student from the state for a basic education. If you want a better education, move to a town with a better school district like what most middle class people try to do.

There is no way in hell it should cost $33,000 to educate a child in any district. I would love to send my children to private catholic schools. I'm not aware of one in Ocean County which charges $33,000 for tuition. If private schools can do it for much less in a much nicer environment, why can't the shitty big city schools do it?

It's called corruption and mismanagement of funds.

Irony is people will cry how this is gonna hurt the kids. Kids aren't seeing this money.

 

[LevaosLectures]

Wow,

People are disgusted with their tax money being wasted on a system that doesn't work.
All school districts should get a certain amount of money per student from the state for a basic education. If you want a better education, move to a town with a better school district like what most middle class people try to do.
.

This is insane and deranged, a point that could only be made by someone without even the most basic grasp of the rampant inequality in our society. Yeah...JUST GO MOVE TO MILLBURN, YOU SILLY NEWARKITES!

Dear God...no wonder Trump won the nomination.

 

[LevaosLectures]

Integration? LOL. If any of those from Weequahic actually achieve anything and make it into the middle class, they'll move out to the Millburns of this world. It's hard to teach when the prevalent culture is not big into education. That starts with the parents and money (or moving to the suburbs) won't change that.

So your theory is that black people (prevalent culture) are inferior? Got it.
Sure; it has nothing to do with 500 years of institutionalized racism.

 

[RU_DIO]

Irony is people will cry how this is gonna hurt the kids. Kids aren't seeing this money.

My sister is a teacher in Woodbridge. She has to bring some of her own supplies in to class which she pays for out of her pocket. I bet if some of those funds wasted in some of the inner city school districts were diverted to her district, the money would be better utilized.

 

[LevaosLectures]

My guess is LevaosLectures is a renter who doesn't pay property taxes and therefore doesn't care about how property tax money is spent.

Actually, I'm a home owner in a high tax rate town and I pay $9,000 a year in property taxes. I would personally benefit immensely from this legislation. However, unlike others, I have the ethical consciousness to be aware of my good fortune and I do not wish to benefit personally by causing further harm to the urban poor.

 

[LevaosLectures]

My sister is a teacher in Woodbridge. She has to bring some of her own supplies in to class which she pays for out of her pocket. I bet if some of those funds wasted in some of the inner city school districts were diverted to her district, the money would be better utilized.

Awesome: Tell her she's free to apply for a job at Paterson East Side if she thinks they have it so good.

 

[vkj91]

So your theory is that black people (prevalent culture) are inferior? Got it.
Sure; it has nothing to do with 500 years of institutionalized racism.

Yea it's all racism. How's the money helping so far? Why won't you answer the question I've asked you multiple times? How much money is the answer? If it's not money then are you for closing the crap schools and shipping those kids to better schools?

 

[LevaosLectures]

Explain what you mean by integrated society? Do you propose closing the abbot schools and busing the kids to better districts? You said it wasn't the schools or teachers so how would that help?

I don't think bussing works all that well, no.

 

[vkj91]

I don't think bussing works all that well, no.

Ok so busing is out. Money sure as hell wasn't the answer. What's the solution? How are you integrating? Or is it not really about fixing the problem and just running with the whites are all racist angle?

 

[RU_DIO]

This is insane and deranged, a point that could only be made by someone without even the most basic grasp of the rampant inequality in our society. Yeah...JUST GO MOVE TO MILLBURN, YOU SILLY NEWARKITES!

Dear God...no wonder Trump won the nomination.

This is insane and deranged, a point that could only be made by someone without even the most basic grasp of the rampant inequality in our society. Yeah...JUST GO MOVE TO MILLBURN, YOU SILLY NEWARKITES!

Dear God...no wonder Trump won the nomination.

You're insane.

One of the reasons people spend extra money in taxes is to get a better education.for their children.

Oh, and it's now funny how you bring up the race card.

Typical entitled bs.

My wife and I kill ourselves with work to try to give our children a better life. Why don't you try the same. No one handed my parents or my wife's parents anything when they immigrated to this country with NOTHING. My dad came here with 1 pair of pants. They worked their asses off to provide for us. But sure, keep spending my money on a broken system why I work my ass off to pay my bills and try to stay above water.