OT - Christie's proposed school funding plan

[Wolv RU]

It will not help the kids because our infrastructure will not get fixed, the little supplies we do get will not be given to us, the technology we need will not be purchased. But yes it will hurt all the non tenured teachers who will get fired because of budget cuts. It will hurt me because we will probably go onto a contract freeze and I will not get a raise.

We have made tremendous strides in my district. I said it before and I will say it again. We have improved our scores, our graduation rate, and our infrastructure all while bringing down our violence rate, drop out rate, and pregnancy rate. We did that by adding programs that helped our kids.

Gef,

I think the issue that many have is: if a district such as Newark ends up spending the same amount per student as Mendham, why would the students not have the same supplies?

In other words, I think many are frustrated that (at least perception-wise) so little progress has been made despite so much "extra" money already being spent over quite a long period of time. Not only is this the case on a yearly basis but the School Construction expenditures that were funded by the state totaled several billion $.

 

[RU_DIO]

Urban schools swallow money up. I agree some is wasted. We had to spend 10 million in district last year just so we could have working heat in buildings. We also had to spend 12 million just so we could have internet in every building. One of our buildings can not have computers because the electric needs to be completely redone (if you turn on a light and a fan the circuit trips).

I agree we probably have too many administrators, and we over pay for some of the programs that come in, but we have so many issues that we need that money for. My kids come to school with nothing. I get pencils and paper donated just to cover what I need in my room. Cutting our funding will not help the kids at all.

Maybe you need to privatize the schools and remove the government's wasteful spending.

 

[Wolv RU]

Urban schools swallow money up. I agree some is wasted. We had to spend 10 million in district last year just so we could have working heat in buildings. We also had to spend 12 million just so we could have internet in every building. One of our buildings can not have computers because the electric needs to be completely redone (if you turn on a light and a fan the circuit trips).

I agree we probably have too many administrators, and we over pay for some of the programs that come in, but we have so many issues that we need that money for. My kids come to school with nothing. I get pencils and paper donated just to cover what I need in my room. Cutting our funding will not help the kids at all.

If these infrastructure issues are really the primary problem, then it should be possible to put a price tag on what it will take to fix them, and not require an indefinite investment. I think there would be much more common ground if there was a push to be honest with the taxpayers and tell them what it will cost. Instead, the perception is that money is spent simply because it is available, and it is not spent smartly. And it is frustrating for many when their money is spent in a locality over which they have no control over how it is spent.

Whether the current initiative goes anywhere is probably not that important -- the appetite for such increased funding for such a small selected few is drying up as property taxes around the state increase.

 

[Rutgers1]

Urban schools swallow money up. I agree some is wasted. We had to spend 10 million in district last year just so we could have working heat in buildings. We also had to spend 12 million just so we could have internet in every building. One of our buildings can not have computers because the electric needs to be completely redone (if you turn on a light and a fan the circuit trips).

I agree we probably have too many administrators, and we over pay for some of the programs that come in, but we have so many issues that we need that money for. My kids come to school with nothing. I get pencils and paper donated just to cover what I need in my room. Cutting our funding will not help the kids at all.

Do you know how ridiculous it sounds when you talk about spending that kind of money for internet access? You've just proved everyone's point on this board that the money spent on these districts is wasted. I would love to be the contractor who got the internet job. Holy crap... PURE PROFIT.

 

[ClassOf02]

Gef,

I think the issue that many have is: if a district such as Newark ends up spending the same amount per student as Mendham, why would the students not have the same supplies?

In other words, I think many are frustrated that (at least perception-wise) so little progress has been made despite so much "extra" money already being spent over quite a long period of time. Not only is this the case on a yearly basis but the School Construction expenditures that were funded by the state totaled several billion $.

Agreed. And to put it another way, I think many are frustrated because it has become evident that throwing money at this problem is not a factor in solving the problem. The problem is likely rooted in an area no amount of money will fix (i.e. unstable families & parents not engaged in their child's education).

It's a tough nut to crack. Yes, every child deserves a shot at a decent education. But, there are also always multiple problems that have to be managed. Like the highest property taxes in the country. And governing means prioritizing the problems facing the state and its constituents. When we KNOW there is wasteful spending somewhere, tell me how it doesn't make sense to stop that?

 

[T2Kplus10]

I will admit I was extreme with that statement but I think most catholic schools in the state are not the Delbartons of the world.

Many small catholic schools have closed up in recent years. Most that remain are well established with great track records of results and college placement.

 

[vkj91]

Many small catholic schools have closed up in recent years. Most that remain are well established with great track records of results and college placement.

And looking at all the wasted money maybe the state would have been better off floating them some money and allowing them to teach some of these kids.

 

[gef21]

Do you know how ridiculous it sounds when you talk about spending that kind of money for internet access? You've just proved everyone's point on this board that the money spent on these districts is wasted. I would love to be the contractor who got the internet job. Holy crap... PURE PROFIT.

I can not tell you what it would cost to replace heating and cooling systems for multiple buildings from the 1800s and 1900s (also asbestos removal). I'm sure just like any other large construction project that money was wasted BUT for three years I had no heat in my class room. Water bottles left on the floor would freeze over night in the winter. This is the first year I have heat. I know that we now have internet, and light switches that work, and wireless internet. Maybe we were over charged? Again I can not tell you how much wiring 6 or 7 old brick buildings with wireless internet in each room should cost.

I also know that the majority of suburban schools do not have to deal with the issues I just listed.

 

[demauroj]

Sorry for bringing fact into this conversation, but this should answer where those Abbott District's can find the money to offset the per student costs. The Argument that the money is not there is simply a farce. The Issue is poor money management for decades at the municipal level. Sometimes the way you solve a problem child is to cut them off and let them fend for themselves and learn proper money management.


From Christie's Speech:

"The statewide average percentage spent on municipal government is 30%; in the 31 SDA districts it is nearly double—a whopping 54%! When you look at some of the individual districts, it is appalling. Asbury Park spends 60% less of their property tax dollars on schools than the state average, while their city spends 64% more than the state average on their municipal government. Trenton spends 18% less of their property taxes than the state average on schools but spends an enormous 387% more than the state average on their municipal government. In Paterson, 49% less on schools; 251% more on their city government. East Orange, 39% less on schools; 379% more on city government. It is outrageous. It is unacceptable."

 

[gef21]

Agreed. And to put it another way, I think many are frustrated because it has become evident that throwing money at this problem is not a factor in solving the problem. The problem is likely rooted in an area no amount of money will fix (i.e. unstable families & parents not engaged in their child's education).

It's a tough nut to crack. Yes, every child deserves a shot at a decent education. But, there are also always multiple problems that have to be managed. Like the highest property taxes in the country. And governing means prioritizing the problems facing the state and its constituents. When we KNOW there is wasteful spending somewhere, tell me how it doesn't make sense to stop that?

Part of the major issue I see is the programs we are required to bring in, by the state, because we are a failing district. We have to spend a ton of money to try a new program and then two years later we are told we need to try a different program and have to buy new books, bring in new speakers, and trainers etc. That adds up quickly.

And part of the issue is kids and families that do not want to be here. Being a failing district you are only allowed to suspend or kick our a certain percent of kids. After a certain number we can not suspend kids anymore. This causes a lot of problems in the school.

We added an adult school for our over age kids and have seen huge success from it (this costs money though).

 

[gef21]

And looking at all the wasted money maybe the state would have been better off floating them some money and allowing them to teach some of these kids.

state can not give money to a catholic school....

 

[vkj91]

state can not give money to a catholic school....

Yea I know it might get used wisely.

 

[gef21]

Yea I know it might get used wisely.

I think you vastly over estimate the majority of catholic schools educational programs. The majority also have zero services for any students with IEPs, LEPs, 504s, etc.

 

[RURod]

This proposal, or something like it, is long overdue. I realize it will never get enacted with the current composition of the legislature, and it probably would not pass constitutional muster with the liberal NJ Supreme Court. Nevertheless, this proposal highlights a massive, decades long wealth transfer that, while yielded no measurable academic improvements in urban school districts, has significantly raised the cost of living in our State. I don't think the average voter, especially the average suburban voter, is aware of what has been going on. The numbers are really shocking: my town's "State aid" would go up 713% under this proposal. I might ask why these (essentially public school) tax monies are not kept local, but we all know the answer.

 

[vkj91]

I think you vastly over estimate the majority of catholic schools educational programs. The majority also have zero services for any students with IEPs, LEPs, 504s, etc.

Yea I know but that isn't what this proposal was about. It also doesn't change they make more happen with way less funds than any of these other schools.

 

[Block R]

We added an adult school for our over age kids and have seen huge success from it (this costs money though).

I don't think anyone, even Christie, thinks his plan would go through as proposed. It is the start of a discussion and negotiation to change state funding of schools. Middle class taxpayers are being bled dry and property taxes in the suburban districts, which are artificially high due to the ridiculous school funding formula, are a primary cause. I think you would find a good deal of support (even in the suburbs) for state funding of programs that demonstrate proven results, such as the one you mention above. But the status quo of continuing to dump such a hugely disproportionate amount of money into the Abbott districts is untenable and in the long run bad for the entire state.

 

[Rutgers1]

I can not tell you what it would cost to replace heating and cooling systems for multiple buildings from the 1800s and 1900s (also asbestos removal). I'm sure just like any other large construction project that money was wasted BUT for three years I had no heat in my class room. Water bottles left on the floor would freeze over night in the winter. This is the first year I have heat. I know that we now have internet, and light switches that work, and wireless internet. Maybe we were over charged? Again I can not tell you how much wiring 6 or 7 old brick buildings with wireless internet in each room should cost.

I also know that the majority of suburban schools do not have to deal with the issues I just listed.

Unfortunately, we do. Our school facilities are from the 50's and everything is in bad shape. Too bad we don't get any money from the state and have to pay for everything on our own through bond referendums. Our last referendum was for less than $12 mill and it covered multiple facilities improvements. It boggles the mind that anyone can spend that much money for just internet access. It's a total farce.

 

[RC1978]

I can not tell you what it would cost to replace heating and cooling systems for multiple buildings from the 1800s and 1900s (also asbestos removal). I'm sure just like any other large construction project that money was wasted BUT for three years I had no heat in my class room. Water bottles left on the floor would freeze over night in the winter. This is the first year I have heat. I know that we now have internet, and light switches that work, and wireless internet. Maybe we were over charged? Again I can not tell you how much wiring 6 or 7 old brick buildings with wireless internet in each room should cost.

I also know that the majority of suburban schools do not have to deal with the issues I just listed.

I am sorry but your last line is just not true. Schools all over the state have had to deal with everything you just posted. Replacing boilers, redoing electric work for AC and computers, asbestos removal, roofing projects etc. If there is not money in their budget the non -abbotts have to go for a referendum and the local taxpayer decides to spend their taxes or not to fix these problems. The Abbotts have had billions of dollars sent their way over the years and that money just seems to go down a hole or as posted on my earlier post I give real examples of waste. Heck there were state bonds floated just so the Abbotts could fix their infrastructure. When they do take this money they build these over the top schools and the architecture firms win prizes. Why the heck they are not building the most cost effective buildings is beyond me.

I have been a BOE member for 26 years and could go on and on about how it all works but the bottom line is something needs to get fixed in the funding formula.

 

[RUBigFrank]

I am sorry but your last line is just not true. Schools all over the state have had to deal with everything you just posted. Replacing boilers, redoing electric work for AC and computers, asbestos removal, roofing projects etc. If there is not money in their budget the non -abbotts have to go for a referendum and the local taxpayer decides to spend their taxes or not to fix these problems. The Abbotts have had billions of dollars sent their way over the years and that money just seems to go down a hole or as posted on my earlier post I give real examples of waste. Heck there were state bonds floated just so the Abbotts could fix their infrastructure. When they do take this money they build these over the top schools and the architecture firms win prizes. Why the heck they are not building the most cost effective buildings is beyond me.

I have been a BOE member for 26 years and could go on and on about how it all works but the bottom line is something needs to get fixed in the funding formula.

in fairness - as you know - some districts have an additional expense with many special needs children. Also - a district such as Newark requires elevated security - metal detectors for example.

It is frustrating to see a district like Long Branch still designated an Abbott district with all the amplified development and gentrification.

 

[LevaosLectures]

Surely if there is a discussion to be had about reorienting distribution of state aid, it need not be an all or nothing situation. This proposal is radical to the point of being absurd.

 

[vkj91]

Surely if there is a discussion to be had about reorienting distribution of state aid, it need not be an all or nothing situation. This proposal is radical to the point of being absurd.

Right? How can some abbot districts expect to function with only 10x's the funding many non abbot districts get right now.

 

[RUfinal4]

What would happen if the state started a voucher program where any Student would get the $6500 in a voucher form to attend any school they wanted (ie. private or enroll our of the town for a fee)?
This way a kid in Jersey City can go to St Anthony's ($9800 tuition) or pay to go to Weehawkin or another school district nearby that will benefit from this plan (if seats are available).

 

[vkj91]

What would happen if the state started a voucher program where any Student would get the $6500 in a voucher form to attend any school they wanted (ie. private or enroll our of the town for a fee)?
This way a kid in Jersey City can go to St Anthony's ($9800 tuition) or pay to go to Weehawkin or another school district nearby that will benefit from this plan (if seats are available).

So parents would have to pay an additional 27k out of pocket to send their kid to Camden?

 

[gef21]

I am sorry but your last line is just not true. Schools all over the state have had to deal with everything you just posted. Replacing boilers, redoing electric work for AC and computers, asbestos removal, roofing projects etc. If there is not money in their budget the non -abbotts have to go for a referendum and the local taxpayer decides to spend their taxes or not to fix these problems. The Abbotts have had billions of dollars sent their way over the years and that money just seems to go down a hole or as posted on my earlier post I give real examples of waste. Heck there were state bonds floated just so the Abbotts could fix their infrastructure. When they do take this money they build these over the top schools and the architecture firms win prizes. Why the heck they are not building the most cost effective buildings is beyond me.

I have been a BOE member for 26 years and could go on and on about how it all works but the bottom line is something needs to get fixed in the funding formula.

Every building in my district, except 1, is from 1920 or before. But yes I agree nothing is done in any kind of efficient and cost effective way.

 

[gef21]

in fairness - as you know - some districts have an additional expense with many special needs children. Also - a district such as Newark requires elevated security - metal detectors for example.

It is frustrating to see a district like Long Branch still designated an Abbott district with all the amplified development and gentrification.

That is true. We have 12 security guards and a cop in the building at all times (we pay for the police officer).

 

[gef21]

Unfortunately, we do. Our school facilities are from the 50's and everything is in bad shape. Too bad we don't get any money from the state and have to pay for everything on our own through bond referendums. Our last referendum was for less than $12 mill and it covered multiple facilities improvements. It boggles the mind that anyone can spend that much money for just internet access. It's a total farce.

It was all part of what the state required us to do to our buildings in preparation for PARCC... I think it also included a lot of electrical upgrades too but in the end I can not say if the money was spent wisely or not. I have internet in my room now and a plug that does not spark anymore.

 

[vkj91]

That is true. We have 12 security guards and a cop in the building at all times (we pay for the police officer).

12 security guards and a cop and you boast that fights are down. No crap you work In a police state. This isn't a knock on you because you seem like a reasonable guy. But can't you see the issue with spending all this money and those are your results? Your school has almost as many cops as Ringwood PD. Yet wayne can't afford all day kindergarten.

 

[Wolv RU]

Surely if there is a discussion to be had about reorienting distribution of state aid, it need not be an all or nothing situation. This proposal is radical to the point of being absurd.

The problem is that the NJSC has prevented such a discussion from even starting. They have interpreted the current state constitution to mandate what is happening. The only way to change this is via an amendment to the constitution, which I understand is what is being proposed.

This is a case where the Court went very far off the rails and while it may have been a temporary windfall (too much of which surely went to those politically connected), the fix now has to be radical to re-balance the power of government.

The Court never should have been involved with funding distribution in the first place. It should have been worked out by the legislature so that it could be easily adjusted over time.

Unfortunately, this is the risk with a Court making laws instead of the people's representatives.

 

[gef21]

12 security guards and a cop and you boast that fights are down. No crap you work In a police state. This isn't a knock on you because you seem like a reasonable guy. But can't you see the issue with spending all this money and those are your results? Your school has almost as many cops as Ringwood PD. Yet wayne can't afford all day kindergarten.

We used to have more and had daily fights with weekly arrests. Haha 12 is actually less. We now have weekly fights and maybe an arrest a month.

 

[Cabana Man]

We used to have more and had daily fights with weekly arrests. Haha 12 is actually less. We now have weekly fights and maybe an arrest a month.

@gef21 , may I ask what school district you work in?

 

[gef21]

@gef21 , may I ask what school district you work in?

Just like when I won't say where I coach I won't say where I teach. I did teach in Newark for 4 years though before moving to where I am now. My Newark years were amazing but intense.

 

[RU_DIO]

It was all part of what the state required us to do to our buildings in preparation for PARCC... I think it also included a lot of electrical upgrades too but in the end I can not say if the money was spent wisely or not. I have internet in my room now and a plug that does not spark anymore.

It almost seems like they would have been better off just building new schools with modern technology. I can't believe you guys had no heat for 3 years. Just another example of funds not being used correctly. I give you a lot of credit teaching in those conditions.

 

[gef21]

It almost seems like they would have been better off just building new schools with modern technology. I can't believe you guys had no heat for 3 years. Just another example of funds not being used correctly. I give you a lot of credit teaching in those conditions.

It's had its ups and downs. I've buried kids, had too many students get pregnant, seen the worst in society but I've had a ton of success stories. Makes me happy to know I've helped a lot of kids.

No heat sucked. I brought in blankets for the kids and we made tea every day. Until they took all non essential electrical items away. Haha

 

[brianoc]

First move to save some money is to remove Hoboken and Long Branch from Abbott designation. I am sure there are others that we should consider removing.

 

[RUevolution36]

i think people would be less incensed about the abbott's if there were more concrete examples of programs and spending on students. i.e., providing more school supplies because the families can't afford them, subsidized breakfast programs to make sure those in dire need get fed, security, etc. but to see money spent on vanity projects, spending on things that even the suburban districts wouldn't dare spend on, it is hard to see how the billions of dollars spent are helping the kids efficiently.

the interesting thing i see in all this is that christie (as evil and conniving as he is) has played his opposition into a corner. condemn the plan, and risk the ire of the constituency in the suburban districts for not sticking up for the interests of the towns they are supposed to represent. support the plan and break ranks with sweeney and prieto...and suffer the consequences. my belief is that most liberals are bleeding heart when spending other people's money...but when it hits their bottom line in a much more personal way (which is what the website he had his people put out does), people clam up and become much more conservative. if this somehow makes its way onto the ballot as a referendum question, i bet it will pass with an overwhelming majority.

 

[mal359]

http://www.app.com/story/news/educa...sbury-park-high-school-pepper-spray/84444042/

more like these kids are fkin stupid to begin with

http://asburyparksun.com/small-fire-at-high-school-quickly-extinguished/

A guy with a CSA flag in their signature calling urban kids stupid. Color me shocked.

 

[mdk01]

Every building in my district, except 1, is from 1920 or before. But yes I agree nothing is done in any kind of efficient and cost effective way.

This is absolutely in no reflection on you personally,. but the Schools Construction Fund was supposed to rehabilitate or replace most of those facilities. Over $6 billion in funding by the state selling bonds all taxpayers are paying interest on. Through waste fraud and abuse less than half the projects were completed. A site was purchased for a new school in Passaic that turned out to be a "brownfield" that couldn't be used for a school. How does that happen?

So the push comes again for new facilities and many taxpayers ask: "How many times am I supposed to pay for these?"

 

[LevaosLectures]

We used to have more and had daily fights with weekly arrests. Haha 12 is actually less. We now have weekly fights and maybe an arrest a month.

You realize you're arguing with an anti-vaxer? I wouldn't count on logic persuading him.

 

[R1776U]

A guy with a CSA flag in their signature calling urban kids stupid. Color me shocked.

so me calling kids who are committing crimes stupid bothers you?.. i'd say the same if some snot nosed brat from Rumson did the same.. you really think pouring money into the system will solve behavior issues?... did you even read those articles? do you even know the youth crime rate in Asbury? esp at the highschool? it all starts and ends at home, plain and simple... maybe instead of your judging me you should go to a lot of southern states and see how black moms will slap the living sh!t outta their kid if they even think of doing what was in those links or even thinking of being in a gang

 

[RUJohnny99]

gef, honestly it sounds like the best situation for everyone is shutting down your district & redistributing the students to surrounding districts. I'm guessing you'll still be in demand, and those of your colleagues that have stopped giving a $#!t can be free to pursue other career opportunities.