Might be cheaper… His rate looks high to me.
and some hamster wheels. I’m at $.1382/kWh.
OT: Electric vehicles
- Thread starter BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap
- Start date
There is a change.org petition to make Tesla Superchargers and Plugs the U.S. Standard. Discussion here, with the usual debate between Tesla and non-Tesla sides.
www.f150lightningforum.com
Sign our Petition to Make Tesla Superchargers and Plugs the U.S. Standard
Interesting move here...
www.f150lightningforum.com
Agreed. I'd suggest looking at your bill again, I pay about $0.08/kWh. 0.32 seems off
That was my all-in rate based on my total bill/usage too. The “advertised” rate on production only for me is roughly half what I actually pay.
I actually haven't the faintest idea what my electricity rates are. Or my gas rates. I probably should know these things. But I suck with money, I guess.
If making it standard, does that mean Tesla would have to place the tech in the public domain? Or would Tesla want licensing fees for the technology, on top of the advantage of having already established production for the tech they wish to be standard, thereby requiring everybody else to play catch up?There is a change.org petition to make Tesla Superchargers and Plugs the U.S. Standard. Discussion here, with the usual debate between Tesla and non-Tesla sides.
Sign our Petition to Make Tesla Superchargers and Plugs the U.S. Standard
Interesting move here...
There are lots of things where consumers might, at least initially, benefit from having an agreed-upon standard. But in certain cases, establishing such a standard might eliminate competition and/or innovation. or where establishing a standard would give an unfair advantage to a particular company.
In any event, I don't know that government should interfere here. Not yet, at least.
I'm not for or against EVs, but this thread seemed like good place for this to be discussed.
www.foxbusiness.com
Florida family drives into electric car problem: a replacement battery costs more than vehicle itself
A Florida family ran into a major problem after buying an electric vehicle, the replacement battery costs more than they bought the car for.
There is a concept in intellectual property/technology called FRAND- Fair, Reasonable And Non-Discriminatory terms that might/should apply here.
Tesla may reach a point where they find it advantageous to allow access to their charging stations in the US based on what they accept as a fair and reasonable payment for non-Tesla owners to use their system. As a non-Tesla owner, I would pay a premium to charge at a more reliable Tesla charging station than to be stuck at a charging station with frequently broken or inoperative charging units.
That is a case of the buyers not doing their homework and the seller taking advantage of unloading a lemon to an unsuspecting buyer.Florida family drives into electric car problem: a replacement battery costs more than vehicle itself
A Florida family ran into a major problem after buying an electric vehicle, the replacement battery costs more than they bought the car for.
Fair enough--but what about the cost break-even analysis presented?
To give that low rate, I think you are skipping the delivery part of your bill. You need to divide your bill’s total by the kWhs your meter says you consumed to get a combined delivery+supply rate. That .08 is almost certainly just your supply rate.
Presented where?
The car had 60,000 miles on it.
Internet search revealed cost of the 2014 Focus Electric with $7,500 Federal Rebate, was $23,000. Assuming gas cost $3.50/gallon, and the car went 60,000 miles as stated in the story, the buyer saved $8,200 on fuel costs over a gasoline vehicle (20 mpg). That brings the cost of ownership down to $14,800. The seller sold the vehicle for $11,000. That's not a bad sum of money to drive a car for 8 years.
As for the buyer, that is a very sad story. She knew the model was not made any more. Not sure how many people with little knowledge of EVs would have done the additional research and asked about the life of the batteries. To make matters worse, the 19 year old woman's father died from colon cancer after she bought it.
This story has less to do break-even analysis than it does about a seller (Carvana was involved) taking advantage of a buyer.
It was the video...
Karl Rove blasts Democrat bragging about pricey electric car | Fox Business Video
Former George W. Bush senior adviser breaks down the numbers while Democrat Sen. Debbie Stabenow pushes green agenda as gas prices skyrocket on 'Fox Business Tonight.'
And I did the math for you. Karl Rove is a tool who has no place talking about this.It was the video...
Karl Rove blasts Democrat bragging about pricey electric car | Fox Business Video
Former George W. Bush senior adviser breaks down the numbers while Democrat Sen. Debbie Stabenow pushes green agenda as gas prices skyrocket on 'Fox Business Tonight.'
OK here are the rates:
Supply Charges = .107296/kwh
Delivery Charges = .151960/kwh
Add to that these other charges and taxes.
Basic service charge $18.28
Merchant Function charge $2.20
GRT & other tax surcharges $1.48 & $5.14
System Benefit Charge $2.76
Sales Tax $7.77
The total conEdison bill for June is $180.48 for 551 kWh which comes to .3275 kWh.
I'm for EVs, in general. Although for me, only for an SUV. And they aren't where I want them to be range-wise yet.I'm not for or against EVs, but this thread seemed like good place for this to be discussed.
Florida family drives into electric car problem: a replacement battery costs more than vehicle itself
A Florida family ran into a major problem after buying an electric vehicle, the replacement battery costs more than they bought the car for.
In any event, I would imagine this will be an ongoing issue in the used EV market. Eventually, battery costs will go down. But still, there will always be that point of no return in which the sale price, or value, of the vehicle is lower than the cost of a replacement battery. Seems like a sales hard-stop point for people interested in purchasing an EV. I certainly wouldn't buy a used EV given the costs of dealing with the replacement battery as they are today. I'd buy new and sell fairly early on to avoid that looming expense.
Because of the battery wear issue and cost, it's hard to imagine driving an EV for 20 years and 300K+ miles the way people sometimes do with ICE cars. That'll suit manufacturers. But it'll suck for consumers who like to buy (not lease) and keep their cars for a long time. There are costs associated with keeping either car type for a very long time, and ICE cars can have more maintenance costs along the way.
But people can and do use used and/or rebuilt engines and other components that are relatively inexpensive. Not sure if or how that'll work for a battery.
Understood. But I think the real question is if other automotive manufacturers, who also are engaged in building charging technology, can be forced into adopting a standard that benefits Tesla. Not to mention how folks looking to form a business around building and selling chargers, or building out a charging station network, might be impacted.
I think it's much too soon to be talking about standard when there is so much innovation yet to take place. Tesla's charging network is great, but Tesla had a head-start. Stifling competition, now that there is some, seems imprudent. Perhaps in a couple decades or so after giving adequate time for the industry to mature and for competition to grow.
I disagree. This is an instance where the "common good" gives way to unbridled capitalism, as much as it pains me to type that. Have you seen what Martina Navratilova has had to say on this? She agrees with me!!! 😜
Copying from Wikipedia:
"Reasonable and non-discriminatory (RAND) terms, also known as fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory (FRAND) terms, denote a voluntary licensing commitment that standards organizations often request from the owner of an intellectual property right (usually a patent) that is, or may become, essential to practice a technical standard."
You may be interested to know that the standards setting organization for EVs may act on this:
"In 2022-23, the EVSP is planning to develop a Roadmap of Standards and Codes for Electric Vehicles (EVs) at scale. In furtherance of the Biden Administration’s goal for a clean energy future, the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) Office of Energy Efficiency & Renewable Energy (EERE) Vehicle Technologies Office (VTO) issued a June 2021 lab call funding opportunity announcement. The lab call included a pillar on codes and standards with the goal to “identify and address challenges and barriers to the integration of EVs@Scale charging with the grid created by uncoordinated development of codes and standards and the rapid advances in vehicle and charging technologies.”
ANSI Electric Vehicles Standards Panel (EVSP)
The ANSI Electric Vehicles Standards Panel (EVSP) is a cross-sector coordinating body whose objective is to foster coordination and collaboration on standardization matters among public and private sector stakeholders to enable the safe, mass deployment of electric vehicles and associated...
www.ansi.org
You have to split out the fixed vs adjustable. For instance, is the basic service charge the same if you don’t have an EV? Need an apples to apples comparison.
For my utility (AC Electric), it matters not whether you have an EV. I’m like any other ACE customer.
I stopped reading when they said it was a used car that they paid $11k for. If you buy an ICE vehicle for a low enough price, you could end up having to pay more for an engine or transmission replacement than you paid for the car.I'm not for or against EVs, but this thread seemed like good place for this to be discussed.
Florida family drives into electric car problem: a replacement battery costs more than vehicle itself
A Florida family ran into a major problem after buying an electric vehicle, the replacement battery costs more than they bought the car for.
Ok I get that part. What about the apples-to-apples comparison presented in the video portion? And just to repeat and be clear, I am not looking to be confrontational here. I am considering taking the EV plunge, probably not for the car I'll be in the market for next year tbh, but who knows.
Rove is still a tool and used fuzzy math by touting some false average cost for an EV. That's BS.
A Volkswagen ID4 costs- MSRP $41,230.
A KIA EV6 costs-MSRP $40,900.
Take into account the EV rebate of $7,500, and that is less than his average cost of $36,000 for a compact SUV.
So, the EVs are cheaper. To boot, in NJ there is no sales tax on an EV, saving another approximate $2,500.
Don't know where he is getting 45 cents per mile in an EV. He says he gets it from the DOE.
However, found this:
"according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, the average cost for homeowners in New Jersey is about 13¢ per kilowatt-hour (kWh). At this price point, charging a 40-kWh EV battery with a 150-mile range would cost about 3¢ per mile "
When gas was $2.52/gallon, that same cost in a 25 mpg vehicle would have been 10 cents per mile. Now it is more like 17 cents per mile.
Like I said, Karl Rove is a tool when it comes to EVs.
I don't get why so many conservatives appear to be against EVs. I keep seeing them recycling the same tired talking points, using outdated price figures to knock down EVs. Another benefit of EVs is you can "refuel" them at your home, and you don't have to bother going to a gas station to keep moving. You can go back and forth from home to work and never have to go to a gas station. The nationwide charging network is a different story right now, but that will improve eventually.
There is a change.org petition to make Tesla Superchargers and Plugs the U.S. Standard. Discussion here, with the usual debate between Tesla and non-Tesla sides.
Sign our Petition to Make Tesla Superchargers and Plugs the U.S. Standard
Interesting move here...
I signed it last week.
I'm not for or against EVs, but this thread seemed like good place for this to be discussed.
Florida family drives into electric car problem: a replacement battery costs more than vehicle itself
A Florida family ran into a major problem after buying an electric vehicle, the replacement battery costs more than they bought the car for.
LOL. Leave it to Fox Business to put up that ridiculous article headed by Karl "oil" Rove with false stats comparing ICE versus EV ownership.
Besides complete disbelief, the only thing that like provided was a reminder to not buy a 2014 Ford Focus EV.
My guess about conservatives is they are reflexively anti-environmentalist and pro-oil. I personally hope that conservatives come back around to the Teddy Roosevelt-style of environmentalism that favors conservationism. (OK, too many -isms).
Comparative Total Cost Analysis on Some of the Most Popular Vehicles in the Country
New analysis from Atlas Public Policy finds electric cars and trucks can cost less than some of the most popular vehicles in the U.S., including the Ford F-150, which had been America’s best-selling vehicle for 43 years in a row. The analysis includes the latest data on vehicle
atlaspolicy.com
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://atlaspolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Total-Cost-of-Ownership-Analysis.pdf
Whatever Rove says, understand his biases. He's an oil guy. So of course he's going to make shit up about EVs that simply is not true.
That Atlas study is good stuff. Done in Feb. 2022:My guess about conservatives is they are reflexively anti-environmentalist and pro-oil. I personally hope that conservatives come back around to the Teddy Roosevelt-style of environmentalism that favors conservationism. (OK, too many -isms).
Comparative Total Cost Analysis on Some of the Most Popular Vehicles in the Country
New analysis from Atlas Public Policy finds electric cars and trucks can cost less than some of the most popular vehicles in the U.S., including the Ford F-150, which had been America’s best-selling vehicle for 43 years in a row. The analysis includes the latest data on vehicle
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://atlaspolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Total-Cost-of-Ownership-Analysis.pdf
The Volkswagen ID.4 ($46,048) is 15.6 percent less expensive than the Honda CR-V ($53,273), based on 8 years of driving a MY 2022 vehicle.
The Ford F-150 Lightning ($50,089) is 17.1 percent less expensive than the Ford F-150 ($58,653) , based on 8 years of driving a MY 2022 vehicle.
The existing $7,500 tax credit was factored in where applicable. Home charging was assumed to be 88 percent. This was taken as a midpoint of a range provided from a laboratory.
Expected years of use was assumed to be eight years at an average of 15,000 miles driven per year.
No climate costs or benefits were factored into the calculation.
No charging equipment costs were factored into the calculation.--some may say- aha!!! Ford gives you a charging unit, or at least they do for the Lariat model I am buying.
Even the Basic Service charge changes every month.
"Charge for basic system infrastructure and customer-related services, including customer accounting, and metering services. A billing and payment processing charge of $1.28, which may be avoided by switching to an energy services company (ESCO), is also included"
Yeah, but you can replace an engine or transmission in an ordinary ICE car without spending even $5000 because you can use rebuilt stuff instead of new stuff. I'm not positive about this, but I'm not sure one would see the same economy for a rebuilt battery, if there even is such a thing. Plus I'd personally be suspicious of the quality of the rebuilt battery.
Also, ICE engines are a mature and extremely well-known technology whereas battery tech is rapidly evolving. So when it comes time to decide about purchasing a new battery for an EV, most likely one wouldn't want the old battery tech anyway as it will be obsolete. Decades from now, when battery tech has matured and is a lot more stable (i.e. not advancing nearly so rapidly), it probably won't be so expensive. But that's decades from now and EV owners need to consider the costs of batter replacement in the here and now and act accordingly.
I dont care to get into now but the equipment is way too expensive and the charging times are woefully inadequate
Lucid Air First Drive Review: New kid in town beats everyone up - Autoblog
The Air Grand Touring boasts eye-popping specs, impressive craftsmanship and engineering, and an overall cool demeanor that's basically impossible to beat.
www.autoblog.com
Looks like it could be the one to beat. For now.Lucid Air First Drive Review: New kid in town beats everyone up - Autoblog
The Air Grand Touring boasts eye-popping specs, impressive craftsmanship and engineering, and an overall cool demeanor that's basically impossible to beat.
Why the Lucid Air is more than the sum of its eye-popping specs - Autoblog
Take a deep dive behind the scenes of the Lucid Air electric sedan and the Silicon Valley startup that makes it.
www.autoblog.com
This to me is the much smarter and more efficient route to reducing carbon. Solves the distance problem. It’s cheaper, no need for massive infrastructure build out, vast majority of people will go electric for 80% of their trips, much less resource intensive and would have a quicker adoption rate.
I think, for a variety of reasons, it‘s highly likely that hybrid solutions will play a very large role going forward. Perhaps a combination of electric and much cleaner burning synthetic fuels.
