OT: Electric vehicles
- Thread starter BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap
- Start date
Have you ever purchased a BMW or Mercedes - check some real data on depreciation.
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Did you even watch the V12 video? JD Power claimed last year that Dodge and Ram were the "most reliable brands based on Initial Quality". You want to believe that be my guest.
When Tesla repeatedly makes substantial cuts in their new car prices, each price cut instantly lowers the value of the used cars for the affected models, especially those bought recently at the higher pre-cut prices.
That’s a different form of depreciation than that experienced by BMW or Mercedes. Conversely, when a car company continually raises prices for new cars, while maintaining high demand, it helps the used cars of that brand retain their value.
When people buy a car, they can research its depreciation rate. That applies to most luxury brands. It doesn’t apply to Tesla, at the moment, due to the unpredictable price cuts.
Not sure why you don’t understand this? These are meaningful price cuts. If you just bought the same car a month ago at the pre-cut price, would you be happy about that?
What’s it called when a group of people are brainwashed into happily handing over lots of their money to the worshiped leader of the group? Where such groups always exhibit intense persecution complexes and are taught to demonize outsiders.
Hm… There’s a word for it… Well, I’m sure it’ll come to me.
I think this article gets it right. This car is kind of a big test for Porsche.
Based on what a seeming majority of current Porsche owners say, there isn’t a ton of interest in EV sports cars among the current customer base. Sedans and SUVs to an extent, but almost none for a 2-door sports car.
So it’s unpredictable and therefore a little interesting to see how things go with EV Caymans.
www.caranddriver.com
Based on what a seeming majority of current Porsche owners say, there isn’t a ton of interest in EV sports cars among the current customer base. Sedans and SUVs to an extent, but almost none for a 2-door sports car.
So it’s unpredictable and therefore a little interesting to see how things go with EV Caymans.
2025 Porsche 718 Cayman/Boxster Will Be Porsche's First Electric Sports Car
How will the faithful greet an established model turning electric? We'll know next year.
I think this article gets it right. This car is kind of a big test for Porsche.
Based on what a seeming majority of current Porsche owners say, there isn’t a ton of interest in EV sports cars among the current customer base. Sedans and SUVs to an extent, but almost none for a 2-door sports car.
So it’s unpredictable and therefore a little interesting to see how things go with EV Caymans.
2025 Porsche 718 Cayman/Boxster Will Be Porsche's First Electric Sports Car
How will the faithful greet an established model turning electric? We'll know next year.
I think it's not just Porsche, but rather that these perceptions are universal across all brand loyalties.
To me, the issue is weight and the way in which it defies the "sports car" image. There's simply no such thing as a lightweight electric car. Attempting to extract Cayman-like reflexes from a 4000+ lb. car just isn't going to work.
Weight, a feeling of agility, and soundtrack. When the Caymans all went turbo, even that put off a lot of buyers. Porsche had to reverse course and put a NA 6 in the top 3 cayman trims. And keep a stick in them, mostly.
I think you’re correct, and folks who might’ve bought a lotus or alpha sports car are just not interested in an electric sports car, either.
So I think it’ll be interesting to see if these sports car EVs attract enough new people with less traditional sports car values, to the brands to make it worth building them. Or will Porsche, lotus, etc, become suv makers only, in the new EV world.
Perhaps the futuristic days of Red Barchetta are closer than we think.
Oooh, that's an excellent reference. Eye-opening for me. Thank you.
Prophetic, were the lyrics. Awareness of the prophecy, in my youth all the way up till today, I had none.
I tend to not pay close attention to lyrics, being more focused on the more musical elements of most songs. And that is a song where I've always been perhaps too heavily focused on all the sounds and rhythms, which are great, while not listening to the words.
Now I gotta go listen to it a few times.
I think it'll be a hit for those who have already gone electric with their primary cars. If the handling can be significantly improved over the standard EV offerings in some fashion, I think there's a market for it.
It'll take time to convert the NA flat 6 folks. If they can be converted at all.
You may be right. We'll see.
Porsche doesn't often, at least in modern times, lower their prices. They keep jacking them ever higher. Not sure how that will play out in today's EV price-war market. Unless pricing is a surprise, a properly optioned base Cayman EV is likely to wind up costing a good bit more than a Model S Plaid does, at the moment at least. And I would think it'll have much less straight-line speed, at least in the base model.
So the handling will have to be seriously special. Just not sure it's doable at the likely weight unless really sacrificing range or adding a ton of carbon fiber and pushing the price way way up. Weight is the elephant in the room.
I look at it like this... Nissan made the GT-R feel nimble-ish to reviewers, at 3800+ LBS. But even Porsche owners, who've owned both, describe the much lighter GT3 or 3RS or GT4 or 4RS as much better handling cars than a Turbo S, which is at roughly 200 LBS lighter than the GT-R. And the Turbo S is 450+ pounds heavier than a GT3.
Moving the weight lower (i.e. with the battery positioning) helps. But anybody who's ever replaced stock wheels and brakes with lighter wheels and brakes knows how massive an impact to driving feel removing weight has. And batteries don't sit lower than the wheels (although there's an unfair advantage to removing unsprung weight).
Anyway, if possible, when the Cayman EVs arrive at dealerships, I'll wrangle a test-drive. And also if possible, I'll see if I can arrange a test drive in an S plaid around the same time, for comparison's sake. I'm very curious to see how they all handle relative to each other, and to much lighter ICE sports cars.
Gotta say, IAA Munich Mobility is really supporting @BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap's contention that EV ranges are very much not going to stagnate at current levels at all and will continue rising. Much like every single other auto show for the past 5+ years.
For instance, Merc previews how it will start integrating the long-range tech from the EQXX: https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/innovation/concept-cars/concept-cla-class/
Just one of basically every company at the show previewing plans to increase ranges. Need to tip a hat where it's due ... 😏
For instance, Merc previews how it will start integrating the long-range tech from the EQXX: https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/innovation/concept-cars/concept-cla-class/
Just one of basically every company at the show previewing plans to increase ranges. Need to tip a hat where it's due ... 😏
i thought someone in this thread was saying that range was going to stagnate, if not go down?
I'm not sure who may have said that, but there is a growing acceptance that EVs with a 200-mile range are fine for the average family. However, longer ranges will also be available. Consumers will find a balance between range and vehicle cost to suit their needs.
Right? I think, maybe, @fsg2 might have been engaging in some sarcasm, but not sure. And I'm too lazy to go look at who was insisting range would go down. But I *think* it was belly.
In a moment of pure ironic, karmic, comedic wonderfulness, twitter suddenly started injecting tons of Sawyer's and a half dozen other twitterati's posts into my feed a few days or so ago. I was getting totally bombarded.
I muted them all. But I was laughing the whole time.
I always figured that ironic, karmic, comedic laws of the universe would, at some point, have a Model S Plaid or Model X Plaid crash into the rear of my 911, totalling it and quite likely killing me, while I'm stopped at a red light. And that the crash would be due to a massive failure of autopilot software.
In fact, I pretty much still think that's a pretty likely scenario. Because the universe is deliciously funny like that. The twitter bombing was just a precursor. 😀
Yep, lots of "plans". Prototypes are easy, profitable volume production is hard.
And for the record, when talking about EV ranges stagnating in the high 200s - mid 300s, we were talking about the AVERAGE, mass market EV. I've said on numerous occasions there would be outliers. There already are.
You're not getting 400+ mi ranges with LFP battery packs. That is the cell chemistry where battery production is going vertical.
It should be noted that, at least based on the reading I've done on upcoming models across all manufacturers, range improvement isn't coming from improvement battery performance but rather from incremental improvements in powertrain efficiency. One example - the new Polestar 2 has increased range (while being more powerful) because of a mapping optimization that allows the front motor to disconnect from the powertrain under specific load conditions.
All well and good but it should also be noted that these efficiency gains are only going to be realized by people who drive to maximize range. Those who drive from a performance perspective won't see it.
All well and good but it should also be noted that these efficiency gains are only going to be realized by people who drive to maximize range. Those who drive from a performance perspective won't see it.
you mean using all of that sub-3 second 0-60 acceleration won't get us 400mi of range? motherf'ers.
speaking of 0-60 times...having to commute to work more often now...i'm noticing quite a number of tesla drivers who will sit in the left lane on Rt 1 and gun it at a light...just to get to the speed limit and camp there. irritates the ever living hell out of me. if you ain't driving 10-15 over, gtf out of my way.
You know, now that you mention it, I think you're right. Belly actually did say the industry would trend in the exact opposite direction, with ranges cemented in a still-too-low bracket.
Silly me ... it was basically the entire rest of the thread who said he was wrong, in agreement with the actual industry. 😋
That's fine. But keep your range conscious slow ass out of my dinosaur-burning caveman way.
More discussion of battery improvements.
Towing with a Rivian. In summary, it's not too bad, just a bit of charging hassles but nothing that a handful more years of charging infrastructure build-out won't cure.
You're both wrong. Never said EV ranges would decrease.
Once again confusing bold, greenwashing proclamations with what's actually happening in battery production right now. Toyota recycling a 5 year old announcement of a 700 mile range EV that can charge in 15 minutes isn't the actual industry. Same goes for the Germans. A 6 figure EV w/ 400 mi of range isn't mass market. Stop putting words in my mouth.
You didn't. I did. So... we're all kind of right here, but talking about slightly different things.
I went back and looked and it seems he just keeps talking about it not rising for "most" (I'm paraphrasing) EVs due to the choice of battery tech he seems certain will be in use (again for "most") EVs. Maybe, maybe not. I don't care and it's not what I was talking about.
He also made a bold claim about when we'll hit 50% EV adoption. We'll want to revisit that one at the proper time. LOL
He wants, for some reason, to ignore: (a) all the models that are out and will continue to come out with increasingly higher ranges using current tech, (b) any possibility that newer battery tech will replace existing tech, (c) other driveline improvements or aero improvements that will increase ranges, and (d) anything else that doesn't support his claim.
Whereas we are more open-minded about the whole thing, based on the history of technology in general. Neither of us is saying that ALL EVs will have increased range. We're saying battery tech and overall EV range will continue to improve (in general).
I suspect even "most" EVs will experience ever-increasing ranges from model generation to generation. Lots of stuff changes over 10 years time, these days. I rarely bet against technological improvement.
I had a fun ride home from RU game. Some punk in an Acura was weaving in and out of traffic but kept getting stuck at traffic lights next to us in the Lightning. 4 traffic lights of blowing him off the line was not enough.
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Now he is going to trade it in for a model 3. It’s kind of mean of you because Acura has no chance. I had a guy in a modified WRX. Thought it could be a sleeper. I gave him a fair chance by rolling out to 20 mph before gunning it. It wasn’t a sleeper. Just a cherry bomb muffler.
