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OT: Stock and Investment Talk

The 6 month returns is about the only time frame you can find where ARKK is down. 5 year it's up it's way up. 3year is way up. 1 year is way up. 1 month it's up.

But sure find the intermediate time frame where it's down and then act like we are the guys playing with the numbers.
They are going to start citing specific days that were negative soon! LOL. Let's all be honest. Over the past 5 years ARK has crushed it. They had a bad 3 months from mid-Feb to mid-May. That's the story. What will happen in the future? Nobody knows.
 
They are going to start citing specific days that were negative soon! LOL. Let's all be honest. Over the past 5 years ARK has crushed it. They had a bad 3 months from mid-Feb to mid-May. That's the story. What will happen in the future? Nobody knows.

i question her valuation approach, but do so while acknowledging her multi-year performance has been remarkable. My comments are more directed to how her methodology may impact her future returns.

A lot is written in this thread comparing, or rotating, from growth to value. I’ve hinted at this in the past, but to make it more explicit, that’s a false choice. All intelligent investing involves receiving more in value than what you pay. To assess, you need to value the businesses in question. If the valuation you are paying is meaningfully less than the intrinsic value of the business, you should consider an investment. If not, you are leaving little or no margin for error. Growth is one comoonent of value. Often, growth adds value but just as often, it does not.

Think of value along three areas. First, what would it cost a new entrant to enter a market? How much would they have to spend to replicate the assets of incumbent firms? That includes obvious items like building, office space and workforce, but also customers and product portfolios along with staff. It’s the base form of value. It’s where you should start.

Second, what is the company worth at its current earnings level assuming it does not grow? That assumes the business spends nothing on growth initiatives, so you’d need to adjust for such expenditures. The vast majority of the time, this no growth earnings value will mirror the asset reproduction value. That’s because the vast majority of businesses earn a return on invested capital equal to their cost of capital. Yes, they can grow, but to finance that growth, they need to spend. If they earn a return on that spend equal to their cost of capital, growth adds no value, This is an absolutely critical point. Only when returns on incremental capital exceed a firms cost of capital does growth add value. And the only instance that happens is when a firm has a competitive advantage preventing competitors from entering their market. In Morningstar lingo, that’s called a moat.

It is true that more businesses today have moats than in the past, Google and Apple, for example. Many software businesses. And I’d argue that group excludes, for example, Tesla.

Tesla enjoys no barrier to entry. Zero. To say they do would be akin to saying they are single handedly changing a century of auto OEM. Yes, they have opportunities for other revenue streams outside of auto but those are all into equally competitive markets. They may have a lead in certain areas, but that lead is not synonymous with a barrier bestowing sustained reruns above cost of capital,

I don’t think CW considers the growth consideration as stated above at all, and that’s why I’d be skeptical of her prospects to earn 25% + going forward. And it’s a lot harder to compound at high rates when you have a large AUM.

But back to the original point, though. Nothing in the above methodology considers multiples, book value or other metrics typically quoted to classify stocks as potential value plays. Food for thought.
 
I just read the article about Peter Thiel's Roth IRA and his investment strategy for a Roth account makes perfect sense looking back.

The idea for high risk high reward investments within a Roth account really adds an additional factor in making the risk worthwhile
 
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I just read the article about Peter Thiel's Roth IRA and his investment strategy for a Roth account makes perfect sense looking back.

The idea for high risk high reward investments within a Roth account really adds an additional factor in making the risk worthwhile

1. As long as your high rewards exceed your high risk losses. Losses in a Roth are absolutely worthless. Even in a traditional IRA losses are against pre-tax assets.

2. So ProPublica got his Roth records from 1999 on leaked by (illegally) IRS sources. Since 1999!!! Does that concern you? There is not even a hint of illegality, but I'd say this was leaked for purely political purposes. And I don't mean Biden or Pelosi ordered it. But there is a cohort within the IRS that is playing hardball politics with our collective privacy.
 
1. As long as your high rewards exceed your high risk losses. Losses in a Roth are absolutely worthless. Even in a traditional IRA losses are against pre-tax assets.

2. So ProPublica got his Roth records from 1999 on leaked by (illegally) IRS sources. Since 1999!!! Does that concern you? There is not even a hint of illegality, but I'd say this was leaked for purely political purposes. And I don't mean Biden or Pelosi ordered it. But there is a cohort within the IRS that is playing hardball politics with our collective privacy.
It does concern me and it should be investigated and prosecuted
 
Tesla enjoys no barrier to entry. Zero. To say they do would be akin to saying they are single handedly changing a century of auto OEM. Yes, they have opportunities for other revenue streams outside of auto but those are all into equally competitive markets. They may have a lead in certain areas, but that lead is not synonymous with a barrier bestowing sustained reruns above cost of capital,
.
Brand loyalty, access to suppliers, economies of scale. 3 barriers to entry Tesla had to deal with.
As far as software and moats, I suggest the following 30 minute chat by Andrej Karpathy, Tesla's director of AI and Autopilot Vision.

 
But back to the original point, though. Nothing in the above methodology considers multiples, book value or other metrics typically quoted to classify stocks as potential value plays. Food for thought.
I'm eagerly awaiting what Congress is going to do with the big tech companies. I bought GOOG at 600 a few years ago, because the sum of the parts was close to 2000. Hell, Youtube alone is worth the current price of GOOG. Split up AMZN, AAPL & FB and let the good times roll in the tech sector.
 
Nike EPS comes in at .93 vs projected .51. This is a reminder that projections (FMV, DCF, target prices, etc) are based on assumptions and estimates that may or may not come to fruition. Not that we should totally discount them, but we shouldn’t take them as gospel.
 
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Brand loyalty, access to suppliers, economies of scale. 3 barriers to entry Tesla had to deal with.
As far as software and moats, I suggest the following 30 minute chat by Andrej Karpathy, Tesla's director of AI and Autopilot Vision.


That’s the point, though. The fact that Tesla could enter shows there were zero barriers, other than capital. Brand in the auto sector does not allow any OEM to earn high returns, no matter how iconic the brand might be. Access to suppliers? Serve up enough trucks and cash. You’re in. And economics of scale lead to price competition passed along to consumers. It’s a classic capital intensive, cost of capital return business. Tesla will not be immune.
 
That’s the point, though. The fact that Tesla could enter shows there were zero barriers, other than capital. Brand in the auto sector does not allow any OEM to earn high returns, no matter how iconic the brand might be. Access to suppliers? Serve up enough trucks and cash. You’re in. And economics of scale lead to price competition passed along to consumers. It’s a classic capital intensive, cost of capital return business. Tesla will not be immune.
It’s not a car company. Duh
 
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That’s the point, though. The fact that Tesla could enter shows there were zero barriers, other than capital. Brand in the auto sector does not allow any OEM to earn high returns, no matter how iconic the brand might be. Access to suppliers? Serve up enough trucks and cash. You’re in. And economics of scale lead to price competition passed along to consumers. It’s a classic capital intensive, cost of capital return business. Tesla will not be immune.
Wouldn't the necessary capital be a barrier? I would think the barrier's or moat's are not impenetrable, they just make it difficult to overcome.
 
Wouldn't the necessary capital be a barrier? I would think the barrier's or moat's are not impenetrable, they just make it difficult to overcome.
MS give Tesla a Narrow Economic Moat:

Economic Moat | by David Whiston Updated Apr 26, 2021
Our narrow moat upgrade in October 2020 for Tesla came from two of our five moat sources, intangible assets and cost advantage. Tesla’s brand cachet is not likely to be impaired any time soon as other automakers move into the battery electric vehicle, or BEV, space because we expect Tesla to keep innovating to stay ahead of startup and established competitors. The Model S now offers over 400 miles of range and the plaid plus mode performance upgrade available in 2022 (starting at about $150,000) will enable the sedan to do 0-60 mph in under two seconds and have over 520 miles of range. We think Tesla’s autonomous program is also well ahead of many other automakers. We think Musk was very smart to not only design a great-looking car, but also have Tesla right away sell vehicles at a premium price point. This created tremendous media publicity for Tesla beyond its customers, which we think created a halo effect for Model 3 and Model Y demand when they were introduced, as well as for the Cybertruck, which we think is ugly but that ugliness is ironically part of its appeal. We think that if Tesla had started with a mass-market vehicle, it probably would have failed, as too few people would have known about the car and would have been willing to pay for the brand. We also think Tesla benefits from a first mover advantage in electric vehicles that let it build factories and vehicles from scratch and create processes that legacy automakers will likely find hard to match.

The ability to possibly reduce battery cell costs by 56%, as outlined at the firm’s September 2020 Battery Day event, suggests a cost advantage that incumbent automakers could take years to catch or may never catch as they won’t want to build many new factories from scratch like Tesla is doing. Legacy automakers are gradually transitioning to BEV production from internal combustion, but we expect they will be saddled with legacy internal combustion engine, or ICE, costs and people costs for a long time. Our projected Tesla return on invested capital assumptions are well above our weighted average cost of capital even in our bear case scenario. The moat upgrade assumes Tesla continues to grow and we see low risk of material value destruction and more reasons to upgrade the moat in October 2020 than keep waiting for further improvement.

We think Tesla's gross margin, all else constant, would have a negative mix shift over time as the cheaper Model 3, Model Y, and a planned $25,000 vehicle become the vast majority of volume, but battery costs should also decline significantly. These reductions and adjusted gross margin calculations we’ve done comparing Tesla to German automakers--along with Tesla's unique factory-owned stores enabling the firm to get retail pricing rather than wholesale pricing--are in our view a cost advantage over other automakers and lays the ground for the moat widening once Tesla's volume allows more scale of its R&D and overhead expense. A similar scale argument can be made for the energy business. Though long term there’s nothing stopping an ICE firm from being a BEV-only firm and narrowing Tesla’s cost advantage, we see legacy firms as having legacy cost structures around ICE vehicle programs that cannot be eliminated overnight as these programs are needed to keep those firms profitable while also developing BEVs.

The other cost advantage comes from the customer side via total cost of ownership, as the cost of electricity for a year versus the cost of gas is not even close. Model S owners' electric costs are a fraction of what ICE owners pay for gas, per our calculations. Our cost calculation done in January 2020, defined as electricity or gas, insurance, and maintenance, shows the Model 3's cost per mile at about 15% less than a BMW 330i.
 
Looks to me like your point is to straight troll the thread. So whatever.
Actually, You are trolling yourself trying to defend something you know it’s wrong. Next time, just own up and move on.
 
Wouldn't the necessary capital be a barrier? I would think the barrier's or moat's are not impenetrable, they just make it difficult to overcome.

No.

Capital is perhaps only a temporary impedoment when capital markets are dislocated. Such periods are infrequent and short lived.

Your intuition regarding barriers is supported by the industrial record. Very few businesses enjoy barriers allowing them to earn returns in excess of their cost of capital. To find such businesses, you generally are looking for high switching costs for a product or service, or economies of scale providing market leaders with such large cost advantages that other competitors are unable to price offerings sufficiently low to entice customers, There are others, but those tend to be two fairly powerful examples, Tesla enjoys neither of those relative to the auto sector at large. Any lead they maintain in battery production or capacity is temporary, and other well financed OEMs will no doubt narrow that lead in due course.

This is not to say Tesla is not providing a valuable service to the world. Leading the change to electric vehicles and renewable energy is tremendously important. Understanding their technology often leads investors to a false sense of comfort, but knowing about their current battery advantage isn’t the same as understanding the economics of the inevitable competitive grind of commoditized industries. Tesla’s contributions will improve lots of things, but they are not likely to provide a return on capital in excess of the cost to finance the needed expenditures.
 
Actually, You are trolling yourself trying to defend something you know it’s wrong. Next time, just own up and move on.
Aight let's play this out.

ARKK is up about 90% yoy. It was up higher, but then dipped. It is now up 25% off it's lows from a month or so ago and is now flat ytd.

ARKK has outperformed the S&P over 5y, 3y and, even with it's underformance ytd, 1y intervals.

If you want to focus on the last 6 months, that's great, but the reality of the situation is the ARKK has been a great investment vehicle.
 
Aight let's play this out.

ARKK is up about 90% yoy. It was up higher, but then dipped. It is now up 25% off it's lows from a month or so ago and is now flat ytd.

ARKK has outperformed the S&P over 5y, 3y and, even with it's underformance ytd, 1y intervals.

If you want to focus on the last 6 months, that's great, but the reality of the situation is the ARKK has been a great investment vehicle.
He knows he's wrong. Just not man enough to admit it and move one.
 
No.

Capital is perhaps only a temporary impedoment when capital markets are dislocated. Such periods are infrequent and short lived.

Your intuition regarding barriers is supported by the industrial record. Very few businesses enjoy barriers allowing them to earn returns in excess of their cost of capital. To find such businesses, you generally are looking for high switching costs for a product or service, or economies of scale providing market leaders with such large cost advantages that other competitors are unable to price offerings sufficiently low to entice customers, There are others, but those tend to be two fairly powerful examples, Tesla enjoys neither of those relative to the auto sector at large. Any lead they maintain in battery production or capacity is temporary, and other well financed OEMs will no doubt narrow that lead in due course.

This is not to say Tesla is not providing a valuable service to the world. Leading the change to electric vehicles and renewable energy is tremendously important. Understanding their technology often leads investors to a false sense of comfort, but knowing about their current battery advantage isn’t the same as understanding the economics of the inevitable competitive grind of commoditized industries. Tesla’s contributions will improve lots of things, but they are not likely to provide a return on capital in excess of the cost to finance the needed expenditures.
I didn't mean to say that Tesla enjoys a moat that other auto companies do not. More so that the auto industry itself enjoys a moat, as evidenced by the lack of new players prior to TSLA.

The legacy car companies because they are able to produce capital, are not hindered to enter the EV market.
 
I didn't mean to say that Tesla enjoys a moat that other auto companies do not. More so that the auto industry itself enjoys a moat, as evidenced by the lack of new players prior to TSLA.

The legacy car companies because they are able to produce capital, are not hindered to enter the EV market.

I think the lack of new entrants was due to the mediocre returns available In a global, ruthlessly competitive industry.
 
Aight let's play this out.

ARKK is up about 90% yoy. It was up higher, but then dipped. It is now up 25% off it's lows from a month or so ago and is now flat ytd.

ARKK has outperformed the S&P over 5y, 3y and, even with it's underformance ytd, 1y intervals.

If you want to focus on the last 6 months, that's great, but the reality of the situation is the ARKK has been a great investment vehicle.
Nice try. Below is your post that started this. I simply showed you examples why your statement is wrong. You doubled down with this stupid argument and now trying to spin the argument as something else.

If someone is bullish on everything, and is right, then what's the issue?
 
Nice try. Below is your post that started this. I simply showed you examples why your statement is wrong. You doubled down with this stupid argument and now trying to spin the argument as something else.
You brought up ARKK here.
So, you still think ARK is doing great because of last year’s performance. I’m just providing facts. You guys can spin all you want to make yourself feel better.
And I said ARKK is up 25% in the last month.

Now I have no clue what your point even is, but I don't think ARKK being up significantly in the last month backs it up.
 
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MS give Tesla a Narrow Economic Moat:

Economic Moat | by David Whiston Updated Apr 26, 2021
Our narrow moat upgrade in October 2020 for Tesla came from two of our five moat sources, intangible assets and cost advantage.

Wow, haven't seen such bullsheet analysis from a sell side firm since Spitzer cracked down on them 15 years ago. At least this guy cuts right to the chase and says in the first sentence his rationale is based completely on imagination.

Intangible assets are what a firm receives when they overpay for an acquisition.
 
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Wow, haven't seen such bullsheet analysis from a sell side firm since Spitzer cracked down on them 15 years ago. At least this guy cuts right to the chase and says in the first sentence his rationale is based completely on imagination.

Intangible assets are what a firm receives when they overpay for an acquisition.
Great analysis by Morningstar. Your opinion is silly.
 
I didn't mean to say that Tesla enjoys a moat that other auto companies do not. More so that the auto industry itself enjoys a moat, as evidenced by the lack of new players prior to TSLA.

The legacy car companies because they are able to produce capital, are not hindered to enter the EV market.

The auto industry has zero moat. A moat allows a company to earn higher returns in equity than peers and industrial norms. The auto sector is perhaps the very definition of an industry that benefits from no excess returns.
 
The auto industry has zero moat. A moat allows a company to earn higher returns in equity than peers and industrial norms. The auto sector is perhaps the very definition of an industry that benefits from no excess returns.

Morningstar rates Tesla as a one star stock, but also considers Tesla to have a shallow moat (middle of three moat ratings). I own some Telsa stock and a Model Y. One stat I would pay attention to is owner satisfaction. Telsa has consistently had the highest owner satisfaction in the auto industry. Telsa stock is probably overpriced right now, but taking a long-term view and I've very confident owning Tesla stock.
 
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The auto industry has zero moat. A moat allows a company to earn higher returns in equity than peers and industrial norms. The auto sector is perhaps the very definition of an industry that benefits from no excess returns.
I guess I don't really understand how the term is traditionally used. So I googled it, and see that Buffet coined the term and how he used it.
 
China nice week
I've owned BABA for a bit, got back into BIDU just this week, and those two were #2 and 3 on my leaderboard today.

I see NIO and especially LI have been on fire since May 11thish.
 
Carter Worth was on options action this evening and noted that while the price of oil has continued to increase in the past 3 months, the oil stocks have levelled off. His thought is that this signals a continued sideways trade in the short term for oil stocks.
 
Morningstar rates Tesla as a one star stock, but also considers Tesla to have a shallow moat (middle of three moat ratings). I own some Telsa stock and a Model Y. One stat I would pay attention to is owner satisfaction. Telsa has consistently had the highest owner satisfaction in the auto industry. Telsa stock is probably overpriced right now, but taking a long-term view and I've very confident owning Tesla stock.

I read their piece on Tesla, and respectfully disagree with their contention that the brand generates any incremental return relative to other OEMs. Not to say the brand is unique and valuable. I also disagree that their lead in battery will deliver superior profitability. Competitors will either build their own capacity or third parties will fill the need. its not like other businesses don’t exist with advanced battery technology. And not no revenue SPACs, either. Look at BYD in China.

Owner satisfaction leaders have never enjoyed superior profitability. Auto is tough. Tough as it gets. Tesla won’t have any edge in cars. Or energy. It’s hard to see software delivering sustained advantage relative to other OEMs, either.

I could be wrong, But if I am, it means that Tesla is the first auto company in a century to have brand drive higher margins, and capture lasting cost savings from technology leads. Neither has worked. Could Tesla be the first? Not a zero percent chance but I wouldn’t bet on it.
 
I guess I don't really understand how the term is traditionally used. So I googled it, and see that Buffet coined the term and how he used it.

I wouldn’t get hung up on the word moat. What you want are businesses that are so dominant that potential entrants with unlimited funds won’t be able to dent their position or profitability. See Google versus,for example, Microsoft’s Bing.
 
CL's that cut and ran from high growth stocks missed out over the past month. Stick to the plan, don't get scared:

 
I wouldn’t get hung up on the word moat. What you want are businesses that are so dominant that potential entrants with unlimited funds won’t be able to dent their position or profitability. See Google versus,for example, Microsoft’s Bing.
And not just the Google search engine, but Youtube. I think there are similar platforms out there, but like with their search engine Youtube is incredibly dominant.

I do own some.
 
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