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Not following, but from Morningstar:

Maintaining $160 FVE as Celanese Reports Fourth-Quarter Results; Shares Undervalued

Analyst Note | Updated Feb 24, 2023
After updating our model to incorporate Celanese's fourth-quarter results, we maintain our $160 per share fair value estimate. Our narrow moat rating is also unchanged.

Although management guided to a lower outlook in 2023 than the initial view presented during the company's third quarter earnings call, the midpoint of adjusted EPS guidance was slightly above the consensus mean based on PitchBook data. As such, the market reacted positively to the outlook, with shares up 2% at the time of writing on a day when the broader market is down 1.5%.

However, at current prices, we view Celanese shares as undervalued, with the stock trading more than 25% below our fair value estimate and in 4-star territory. As a result, we view current prices as a good entry point for long-term investors to pick up shares of the high-quality specialty chemicals producer.

In our view, an economic slowdown in 2023 will represent a cyclical bottom for Celanese's earnings, after reaching a peak in 2021. Thereafter, we expect Celanese will be well positioned to generate strong results driven by volume growth for its downstream engineered materials as the company integrates the recently acquired DuPont mobility and materials business. As global auto builds recover and electric vehicle adoption grows, Celanese is well-positioned to see long-term profit growth.

We have also updated our Morningstar Uncertainty Rating for Celanese to High from Medium. The change is to reflect a wide range of outcomes due to Celanese's elevated debt levels and the continued volatility of energy prices. This can greatly affect the company's more-commoditized acetyl chain business.

Business Strategy and Outlook | Updated Feb 24, 2023
Celanese is the world's largest producer of acetic acid and its chemical derivatives, including vinyl acetate monomer and emulsions. These products are used in the company’s specialized end products or sold externally. Celanese produces these commodity chemicals in its acetyl chain segment (roughly 65% of 2022 pro forma EBITDA including acquisitions), which primarily serves the automotive, cigarette, coatings, building and construction, and medical end markets. Celanese's Clear Lake, Texas, plant benefits from a cost advantaged feedstock from low-cost U.S. natural gas. The company plans to expand acetic acid production capacity at Clear Lake by roughly 50%, which should benefit segment margins thanks to lower unit production costs relative to other geographies.

The engineered materials, or EM, segment (35%) produces specialty polymers for a wide variety of end markets. Celanese is investing in the expansion of this business through acquisition. The company acquired Santoprene in late 2021 and acquired the majority of DuPont's mobility and materials portfolio in late 2022. Both deals add complementary products to Celanese's existing portfolio. Going forward, the EM segment should generate roughly 50% of profits in 2023 and grow to account for the majority of profits thereafter.

The automotive industry will account for the majority of EM segment revenue, while other key end markets include electronics. EM uses commodity chemicals, such as acetic acid, methanol, and ethylene to produce specialty polymers. Celanese should benefit from automakers lightweighting vehicles, or replacing small metal pieces with lighter plastic pieces. Celanese should also see growth from increasing electric vehicle and hybrid adoption, as the company will sell multiple components specific to these powertrains. By 2030, we forecast two thirds of all new global auto sales will be EVs or hybrids.

Fair Value and Profit Drivers | Updated Feb 24, 2023
Our fair value estimate is $160 per share. Our valuation assumes an 8.2% weighted average cost of capital. The marginal cost sources for many of Celanese’s commodity chemicals are oil-based naphtha or higher-cost European or Asian natural gas. However, Celanese produces the majority of its chemicals from low-cost U.S. natural gas feedstock. As such, the company benefits from a wider spread between U.S. natural gas and either Brent oil or European and Asian natural gases.

As the company integrates the DuPont and Santoprene acquisitions, we expect EBITDA margins in the engineered materials segment to grow from the low to mid-20% range on a pro forma basis to the high-20% range in a midcycle environment. We think Celanese will capture the majority of cost-saving synergies from the DuPont deal, leading to margin expansion over time.

We forecast the acetyl chain segment to see lower profits versus the cyclical peak in 2021 due to strong demand and tight supply conditions. While profits fell in 2022, we expect conditions will continue to moderate, leading to another step down in 2023. By the middle of the decade, we forecast the business will grow slowly in a midcycle environment due to exposure to mostly mature end markets. We expect EBITDA margins for the acetyl chain business, which primarily sells acetic acid, to fall back to the mid-20s from the 38% level achieved in 2021 (including the acetate tow business which is now a part of acetyl chain).

In a scenario where Celanese sees prolonged volume decline due to an economic slowdown and an EU natural gas shortage, we would forecast revenue growth to average low-single-digits, while operating margins would fall from lower capacity utilization. This scenario also assumes a tepid recovery from the slowdown. Our fair value estimate would fall to $90 per share.
Luv ya man but thats too NewJerseyHawk like for this thread lol. Holy crap. 😁
 
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Additional ideas for value investors!

I'm a huge MO guy
got in at over 9% Div Yield (still ~8%)+the growth.... they've handled most of the Juul exposure - and working on new smokeless and stoner options.

You fancy internetgrowth guys are masters of the universe... But, you can't beat a tasty Dividend Check every quarter.

lung darts rock!

JMO
 
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All the technical gymnastics aside, it seems obvious the cartels in DC want a digital control currency, and they are willing to break eggs to get it. Little of our economic travails were natural - all were man made by people leaving a massive wake of destruction. All the concern for spending/inflation but just before Silicon collapse (and it was known months ago bank was a mess) but the budget proposal is almost 7 trillion? Geez. Barbarians inside the gate and outside the gate working together. China, Russia an others stacking gold and know what's coming. Alas - all that aside watch Israel and ME - very tense there and media is practically silent



"Edward Dowd, Founder of Phinance Technologies and former BlackRock fund manager, and Michelle Makori, Editor-in-Chief and Lead Anchor at Kitco News, discuss the Federal Reserve's latest rate hikes, and why Dowd thinks Fed Chair Powell will be "forced" to cut rates by June of 2023, leading to a "controlled implosion" of the banking sector. Dowd forecasts that as banks consolidate, only 6 major banks will be left standing by 2025, paving the way for Central Bank Digital Currencies (CBDCs), digital fiat tokens issued and controlled by central banks."

 
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Thanks.

Seems like the media all figured out there is an issue in CRE this weekend. RXR asking for a bailout. LOL.

I wonder if there is an opportunity to arb the price discrepancy between public and private CRE marks?
The media is just catching on but it’s the worst kept secret (not even a secret) for people in the business. CRE market is upside down right now. Meaning debt makes more sense than equity. Arb is hard to find because it’s not a liquid asset and not really commoditized.
 
Venture Capital attempting


Some VC and private equity firms are turning toward strategies to “extend” and “pretend,” meaning they would hold on to assets or prop up capital to avoid true price discovery, Patankar added in a Friday interview. Examples of this include net asset value loans that let general partners borrow against a pool of portfolio companies within a fund, GP-led secondary structures where a fund sponsor sells one or more assets from a fund it already manages to a new fund, and alternative financing via private credit.
 
@T2Kplus20 ...What's goin on with BLUE? Do they have major problems or just a temporary blip?
They are having some serious problems. They were completely unprepared for the commercial launch of their 2 gene therapies (which were approved in the fall). This is not totally unexpected. They essentially ran out of money prior to FDA approval and was hanging on for dear life. Only the 2 preferred vouchers that they sold for about $200m saved the day.

Bottom line, they missed on their treatment/sales goal because sites were not ready to administer the products. This is slowly coming online, so I assume the situation will improve over the next 3-6 months. I would nibble now and buy more under $3 if this is your play. The bar is being set so low for BLUE that any positive news will pop the stock.

There is demand for their products.
 
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How do these gov’t slugs keep their jobs? They should be fired immediately as they are no better than the crooks running the banks!

“Despite U.S. regulators having clear knowledge of insufficient risk management, it seems the examiners and your supervisors were asleep at the wheel while signs that Silicon Valley Bank was heading towards a collapse were staring them right in the face for many, many months,” Rep. Ann Wagner, R-Mo., said to Barr.
 
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How do these gov’t slugs keep their jobs? They should be fired immediately as they are no better than the crooks running the banks!

“Despite U.S. regulators having clear knowledge of insufficient risk management, it seems the examiners and your supervisors were asleep at the wheel while signs that Silicon Valley Bank was heading towards a collapse were staring them right in the face for many, many months,” Rep. Ann Wagner, R-Mo., said to Barr.
Deregulation and self regulation
 
They are having some serious problems. They were completely unprepared for the commercial launch of their 2 gene therapies (which were approved in the fall). This is not totally unexpected. They essentially ran out of money prior to FDA approval and was hanging on for dear life. Only the 2 preferred vouchers that they sold for about $200m saved the day.

Bottom line, they missed on their treatment/sales goal because sites were not ready to administer the products. This is slowly coming online, so I assume the situation will improve over the next 3-6 months. I would nibble now and buy more under $3 if this is your play. The bar is being set so low for BLUE that any positive news will pop the stock.

There is demand for their products.
Looks like expectations are for them to have monster rev growth in up coming years. 2022 was way off previous years though. 40ish mil in both 2019 and 2021(over $250 mill in 2020, but that looks to be an anomoly of sorts and not normal business rev's), but only 3.6mil in 2022.

Expectations of 80 mil, 150mil and 250 mill in the upcoming years. How realistic are those #'s?

Bottomed out at around $3 in early 2022, which look to be it's all time lows.

Current market cap of $330mil.
 
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JPM was first out of the gate with 5-5.1% CD (1-3yrs) callable as far back as Oct. Rates dropped-but have inched back up to 5.0-5.05% again.. as you note..these are callable - I wouldn't go out too far on those (18-24mos).

Gov't Agencies (FHLB/FFCB) were up over 6%- but, have dropped as well (tho inching up again) - these are also largely Callable - but unlike a lot of those CDs are Callable quarterly (not continually).. I think the call risk is manageable up to 24-36 months (but no futher) for the call-risk premium you get.

If we see (ever) Treasuries over 5%... that's something (to consider) locking in for a generation....

Others here are WAY smarter than me on Corporate paper........
One of the strangest months (without a complete financial meltdown) on record......

Those 5% treasuries are gone..as are any 5.4+% CDs.............

now, I continue to expect Fed to +.25 in May (tho I know the markets disagree with me...).

Perhaps we'll see some credit rates rise again before we get to the other side of whatever this rate/liquidity/credit episode turns-out to be..........

hope some of you low-risk guys got in on the 5%+ when u could...
 
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How do these gov’t slugs keep their jobs? They should be fired immediately as they are no better than the crooks running the banks!

“Despite U.S. regulators having clear knowledge of insufficient risk management, it seems the examiners and your supervisors were asleep at the wheel while signs that Silicon Valley Bank was heading towards a collapse were staring them right in the face for many, many months,” Rep. Ann Wagner, R-Mo., said to Barr.
when a bank has no risk officer, but a fully staffed DEI dept... and the local regulators get invited to all the best parties....
 
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I'm a huge MO guy
got in at over 9% Div Yield (still ~8%)+the growth.... they've handled most of the Juul exposure - and working on new smokeless and stoner options.

You fancy internetgrowth guys are masters of the universe... But, you can't beat a tasty Dividend Check every quarter.

lung darts rock!

JMO
A solid upward trend in stock price since Covid(on which it's on the lower end of the range, so maybe a good entry point on that front) but a longer term downward trend since 2017.

Very modest Rev's and EPS growth expected.

Looks like as safe a haven as you could get.
 
Bob Pisani has been noting that early earnings calls from the likes of Micron and Lulu have been better then expectations, and analysts have actually raised expectations looking ahead.

Which is counter to a commonly held market narrative amongst the bears.
 
Michael Burry is now saying he was wrong to say "Sell" back in January.

Is that a pivot in terms of looking ahead? And if so, is he now wrong on that call?
 
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How do these gov’t slugs keep their jobs? They should be fired immediately as they are no better than the crooks running the banks!

“Despite U.S. regulators having clear knowledge of insufficient risk management, it seems the examiners and your supervisors were asleep at the wheel while signs that Silicon Valley Bank was heading towards a collapse were staring them right in the face for many, many months,” Rep. Ann Wagner, R-Mo., said to Barr.
Funny that you use a quote from a gov't official to back up your point.

I don't think it's fair to say a "collapse was staring them right in the face". Sure they had way too high an allocation towards long term low yield treasuries, but a run on the bank was not something anyone was predicting.
 
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The bank examiners that visit us are not exactly rocket scientists. Most seem to be putting in their time with no incentive to be productive or to question the orthodoxy of their bosses. Bottom of the barrel types.
 
Looks like expectations are for them to have monster rev growth in up coming years. 2022 was way off previous years though. 40ish mil in both 2019 and 2021(over $250 mill in 2020, but that looks to be an anomoly of sorts and not normal business rev's), but only 3.6mil in 2022.

Expectations of 80 mil, 150mil and 250 mill in the upcoming years. How realistic are those #'s?

Bottomed out at around $3 in early 2022, which look to be it's all time lows.

Current market cap of $330mil.
Is that $80m for 2023? That's only about 40 treated patients (their GTxs are $2-3m per patient). It's doable, but more treatment sites need to be trained and brought online. I don't know what the status of their manufacturing capacity is, but once again, patient demand is robust enough to meet those revenue expectations.

This is a company that won't go to $0. The 2 FDA approvals are valuable and BLUE will get bought even if their commercial operation fails. I traded BLUE from $3 to $7 last year around FDA approval. May be worth another go soon. :)
 
Is that $80m for 2023? That's only about 40 treated patients (their GTxs are $2-3m per patient). It's doable, but more treatment sites need to be trained and brought online. I don't know what the status of their manufacturing capacity is, but once again, patient demand is robust enough to meet those revenue expectations.

This is a company that won't go to $0. The 2 FDA approvals are valuable and BLUE will get bought even if their commercial operation fails. I traded BLUE from $3 to $7 last year around FDA approval. May be worth another go soon. :)
Ya 2023.

I sold some $2.50 April calls for .13 cents.
 
PCE comes in lower than expected. The trend continues (not a surprise if you understand the gov'ment metrics and math).
 
I’m covering my SPY short position today. I believe the worst is behind us.

The Fed has done a good job on peak inflation. I think they are well positioned to raise rates one more time and then holding until one negative GDP print. In this scenario, I don’t think we go to October lows. I think that we dick around this area before heading higher in May.

I’ll be looking for single stocks to buy starting Monday. I’ll post my trades.
 
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I’m covering my SPY short position today. I believe the worst is behind us.

The Fed has done a good job on peak inflation. I think they are well positioned to raise rates one more time and then holding until one negative GDP print. In this scenario, I don’t think we go to October lows. I think that we dick around this area before heading higher in May.

I’ll be looking for single stocks to buy starting Monday. I’ll post my trades.
Bear capitulation (just like Michael Burry) ^^^^^

😜
 
Ya 2023.

I sold some $2.50 April calls for .13 cents.
Good article on BLUE:

Investors Take Flight After Bluebird Bio’s Sickle Cell Delay | Scrip | March 30, 2023

Executive Summary
Bluebird’s first two gene therapies are on the market, but a new delay to its biggest hope, the sickle cell disease candidate lovo-cell, has spooked investors.

Bluebird Bio has seen its share price drop by 25% after the company announced a further delay to the filing of its sickle cell disease gene therapy candidate, lovotibeglogene autotemcel, or lovo-cel.

The US biotech had expected to file with the US Food and Drug Administration by the end of this week, but announced on 29 March that this would now been delayed by at least a few weeks.

Timing is significant as Bluebird is in a race to market with a rival sickle cell disease (SCD) candidate, Vertex and CRISPR Therapeutics’s exagamglogene autotemcel (exa-cel), which began a rolling submission in November.

The news added to long-running problems at the gene therapy company and its potentially most lucrative candidate. Lovo-cel’s filing was previously set back 12 months in late 2020 when the FDA requested more data on planned manufacturing processes for the gene therapy.

The latest sell-off left its share price at $3.12, representing a 97% decline over the past five years, a period which included the spin-off of its oncology portfolio as 2seventy Bio, Inc.. (Also see "Bluebird Spinoff 2seventy Bio Gets Its Own Wings" - Scrip, 19 Oct, 2021.)

Speaking on its Q4 call with analysts, Bluebird CEO Andrew Obenshain said the company was likely to miss a target to file in Q1, but believed lovo-cel was still on track for a likely early 2024 launch.

Bluebird also recently launched its first two gene therapies onto the US market – transfusion-dependent beta thalassemia treatment Zynteglo (betibeglogene autotemcel) and Skysona (elivaldogene autotemcel) for rare disease cerebral adrenoleukodystrophy – priced at $2.8m and $3m respectively.

The company provided an update of the first handfuls of commercial patients undergoing cell collection in preparation to receive the treatments, but Bluebird will not report any revenues until Q1 results in May.

Updated Gene Therapy Manufacturing Queried
The delay to lovo-cel’s filing centers on a drug product comparability analysis which Bluebird submitted to the FDA in December. The company recently introduced a new and improved approach to manufacturing the gene therapy, but needs to demonstrate to the US regulator that a new method produces comparable product to that used in its pivotal trials.

The FDA gave feedback to Bluebird last month, and posed further questions that it wants to see answered before the company begins its filings. The company has now provided the regulator with a full chemistry, manufacturing, and controls module, along with responses to the extra queries. Obenshain said there was no timeline for the FDA to respond, but that it had committed itself to a “timely response”.

He added that the full filing was otherwise complete and ready for submission, and expressed confidence in its pivotal trial data in SCD.

Bluebird’s filing will be based on the efficacy results from 36 patients in the HGB-206 Group C cohort and will include a median of 32 months of follow-up and more than 4.5 years of follow-up for some patients. It also expects to include efficacy results from two patients with 18 months of follow-up in the HGB-210 study.

Bluebird believes it is in good shape to be a long-term leader in the field. Obenshain highlighted the fact that it now has 12 activated qualified treatment centers (QTCs) in the US up and running for Skysona and Zynteglo, with a further 30 preparing to come on stream.

Obenshain said having these centers set up to deliver Zynteglo for beta thalassemia would “directly translate” into allowing it to bring lovo-cel to patients with the closely related disease SCD. This, Bluebird believes, will give it an advantage over Vertex.

“We will have the same treating physicians, the same QTC network and the same payer relationships,” said Obenshain. “Bluebird has over a year head start, launching a gene therapy on inherited hemoglobin disorders versus any other gene therapy program.”

Analysts at SVB Securities were however pessimistic on the latest developments, and reduced their ‘possibility of success’ rating for lovo-cel in SCD to 50% from 70%, reflecting the uncertainty around the FDA’s information request and submission delay.

A further cause for concern was the company’s disclosure in a 10-K filing that a patient previously involved in the lovo-cel partial clinical hold had been diagnosed with myelodysplastic syndrome, a type of rare blood cancer. However, the patient has been reported to have no need for interventional therapy or transfusions, and there was no evidence of insertional oncogenesis, a risk linked to gene therapy.

Dane Leone, analyst at Raymond James, took a more phlegmatic approach to the news, commenting that the lovo-cel CMC issues seemed “straightforward" and saw no significant concerns about the MDS, concluding that “the current negative stock reaction is over-done.”

The next significant development in the market is likely to be news from Vertex/CRISPR Therapeutics. The companies had predicted their filing of exo-cel would be completed in Q1, but without any update as yet, look likely to run over into Q2.
 
Still hearing a persistent school of thought that a recession is virtually guaranteed starting in third or fourth quarter this year that likely won't be deep but will have a long tail. Had a work meeting yesterday (financial services industry) where that was the consensus among senior leadership.

Having trouble understanding how this would impact markets. There is a 50/50 split in opinions; some have the mindset that this was priced in since last fall and the markets should remain flat or slowly increase over the course of the recession and others think there will be another wave down, possibly even a significant wave down if a credit crunch materializes. I was targeting now to get back into more stable market funds like SPY and QQQ but this is giving me a bit of pause.
 
Still hearing a persistent school of thought that a recession is virtually guaranteed starting in third or fourth quarter this year that likely won't be deep but will have a long tail. Had a work meeting yesterday (financial services industry) where that was the consensus among senior leadership.

Having trouble understanding how this would impact markets. There is a 50/50 split in opinions; some have the mindset that this was priced in since last fall and the markets should remain flat or slowly increase over the course of the recession and others think there will be another wave down, possibly even a significant wave down if a credit crunch materializes. I was targeting now to get back into more stable market funds like SPY and QQQ but this is giving me a bit of pause.
You likely missed out on the lows, but both are still at attractive entry points. Unless you are in retirement or very close to it, you should have been buying over the past year.
 
You likely missed out on the lows, but both are still at attractive entry points. Unless you are in retirement or very close to it, you should have been buying over the past year.
I've been in a unique personal situation where we bought our first home last year, and I closed out all my active non-retirement positions December of 2021 which was in hindsight an incredible decision at the time given things were generally in ATHs across the board to put into a nice little home reno fund. Now that we've completed most of the work, it's time to start getting back into a more normal investment posture. I'm fine with missing the lows, I'm only 32 so my investment time horizon is much longer.
 
I've been in a unique personal situation where we bought our first home last year, and I closed out all my active non-retirement positions December of 2021 which was in hindsight an incredible decision at the time given things were generally in ATHs across the board to put into a nice little home reno fund. Now that we've completed most of the work, it's time to start getting back into a more normal investment posture. I'm fine with missing the lows, I'm only 32 so my investment time horizon is much longer.
Sounds good. Are you only interested in broad index funds or etfs? If yes, I would start buying and do some DCA'ing. I'm sure the markets will bounce around a bit, but as inflation continues to come down, the market should positively respond, especially the QQQ.

A recession is so baked in it is like old news already! :)
 
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