OT: UNC Scandal Update... UNC Responds to NCAA ANOA
- Thread starter RUinPinehurst
- Start date
All part of the increasingly liberal philosophy that has been infecting this nation for years. Nothing is ever wrong; no one ever pays. No morality. No ethics. Laws don' t matter. Anarchy by 2030?
Rutgers immediately suspended Flood for 3 games before firing him at the end of the season. This, for only asking about getting extra homework in order to earn a better grade.
There is something called Karma, which will hopefully visit the folks at UNC soon. They sound a lot like the PSU deniers.
Yes Karma hit them last year when they lost to Nova in the NCAA basketball finals AND lost to Clemson in the ACC football championship. TAKE THAT TARHEELS!!! Hurts doesn't it.
Gringo? also you DO? know the story that the winning shot was made by that Nova player who was taken in off the streets by that Carolina player's (who was on the floor) family in high school? Essentially a nuclear family member? They don't take him in-he don't play for Nova-Carolina wins! God works in mysterious ways...As a Carolna grad thought similar to you.
That's one for the ages along with our football alumni beating that years team in the spring practice game that year. Our QB spiking the ball on 3rd down vs Michigan St (last year) already was on "Jeoprady".
BTW used to work out with a guy who dated Rollie Massimino daughter and claimed he saw direct evidence of grade tampering/changing at Vilanova with their first Championship team.
I think (and i may be wrong) you missed the sarcasm by Gringo. The fact they even made the finals in 2 Revenue sports shows that cheating pays (at least in the NCAA).
MY bad. Maybe only in football but I think Carolina fans may hate Clem's son worse than "State" or "Dook" (whom the Heels have a good track record of beating up lately I believe).
You know so many people that have seen grade tampering at multiple universities. Maryland /Villanova. You should write a book. Which section would we find it fiction or non fiction?
Only 2 instances. Those 2 (in one of two cases my acquaintance may not have been the one-but he did claim to see Len Bias snort coke in the bathroom at a party his 1st weekend on campus as a frosh at Maryland (Bias passed several years later and university claimed he had never done coke before).
Also the scandal during my time at UNC was re the incredible Derrick Fenner-incrediboly talented but a mess of a person (there were lots of bad eggs on the football team-I think Dick Crumb before his firing, had about as much control as Flood did last year. Before failing out (and possibly murder out of state-not convicted) think was discovered he had a then "800" two way on the SAT. Anyway either a girl from my program had either tutored him-or a friend had-and she said he had no interest in learning and was an idiot.
Geez, I Also remember being in a quiet Belk Leggett store in Chapel Hill and Scott Williams come into the room and counter near me. No salesperson was present or even close. Scott did walk up to the counter with stuff-but never paid-at least not there. Probably a Tar Heel "credit line". Mentally cut him a "pass" after the store ddn't catch-and I learned that his biological father had killed his biological mother a few days before.
During my 2nd (1988) year in my dorm (maybe my last summer when FB players stayed there) one of "our crew", who loved to blast music, yelled at supposedly two players in a car to shut off Van Halen as "they s*cked". That night coincidentally, while my friend wasd asleep, two guys attempted to bust down my "friend's" door (floor below me). Luckily he had latched his door-and went "ballistic" with a baseball bat-scaring the guys away.
Have also seen a few "weird" thngs at RU and once heard a similar "funny" story about a good Rutgers shooting guard of the late 70's? We also had the FB player under Schiano who broke into rooms and "rubbed feet".
Last edited:
Not so sure in my 2nd acquaintance but he was a big "Nova" fan so don't see why he would lie.
..And Flood dressed down incognito, pressured the Prof to ILLEGALLY meet him and (whatever way you look at it) tried to influence the grade. Our great compliance director (who used to jump when I sat behind her and jokingly infer I was paying players) has already warned Flood to stay away from the Prof.
I don't want to toss stinky do-do both ways here but scarcastically I could say the UNC players had enough confidence in their staff to know they'd get passed (like what happens at many schools-doesn't make it right). In Barnwell's case Barnwell KNEW his status at RU depended on that class-and he STILL didn't show. Then Flood makes a laughingstock out of himself, the sports administration staff and the university by his actions (seemingly well intentioned at first before the dark details emerged-and don';t give me else-COMPLIANCE SAID TO STAY AWAY FROM THE PROF AND FLOOD DISOBEYED (Didn't the prof also complain to compliance/else asking for no contact with Flood as it wouldn't influence his grade). It took both his job and Julie Hermanns to "calm the tide".
Like I said if I were the NCAA I'd play ISIS "death to UNC for 3-5 years" and "death to Rutgers for a year". However reasonable powers in the NCAA likely reasoned that, for the average Rutgers fan (who buys a season ticket-unlike many on this board) watching a Flood team and dealing with an almost consistent flow of many sports administrators who were yee-hahs/arrogant yeehahs is punishment enough! To most fans death is preferable to ~2 conference wins..
I might be wrong but from my view Bob Mulcahy was one of a few who knew how to do things underhandedly-but correctly. From what I remember Bob and Rutgers faced an uphill battle with needed stadium expansion. Bob works with Schiano against the legal grain and underhandedly gets stadium expansion before sh*t hts the political fan. Presure mounts and a ready to retire Mulcahy (alreasdy with a fat pension, contacted and great reputation) just happens to announce his retirement. Should be front of the Rutgers Hall of Fame line just for that.
Last edited:
What are you saying? I hope you do not have to interact through written word as part of your employment.
Worthwhile article from the Duke Basketball Report re: the UNC scandal and the school's "response" to the ANOA. See below or online at: http://www.dukebasketballreport.com...pdate---the-descent-continues-and-accelerates
_________________________________________
UNC Scandal Update - The Descent Continues And Accelerates
By JD King
@DBRTweetz on Aug 3, 2016, 3:26a
It’s pretty typical for schools to self-penalize when an NCAA penalty looms. UNC chose not to do that in its response to the NCAA Letter of Allegations, which is arrogant and pretty revealing: the school is essentially giving the NCAA the finger because it figures it can get away with massive academic fraud.
There was a time when UNC was prepared to sacrifice athletics for integrity; Tuesday’s announcement means that it’s pretty much the opposite now. UNC will do anything to protect the brand - or what’s left of it anyway.
It’s not much.
The whole idea of the UNC Way, the noble public school which did things the right way - that’s over.
Had UNC behaved honorably post-scandal, it might have still salvaged some reputation. Today, there’s no meaningful difference between UNC and schools like UNLV, Fresno State, and Kentucky. UNC clearly thinks that this stain will wash out.
It will never wash out.
Carolina will never regain what it lost, and that’s more because of how it reacted to the scandal than the scandal itself.
It’s a great shame. UNC now has the distinction of being part of two of the greatest scandals in NCAA history, the current one and the Frank McGuire scandal of the early 1960s which involved multiple NCAA violations and allegations of point shaving.
William Aycock, then UNC’s president, forced McGuire out and swiftly de-emphasized basketball. He killed the Dixie Classic, the schedule was limited to 16 games, recruiting was restricted and new coach Dean Smith was simply told to run a clean program and to represent the university well.
In many respects, Aycock and UNC system president William Friday, working together, saved the university.
Today? UNC, faced with the worst academic scandal in NCAA history (and it’s not even close) has done everything possible to obfuscate and resist. And the general consensus is that they have an argument at least partly because the paper classes weren’t limited to athletes.
Even here though there is hokum: we seem to remember Deborah Crowder complaining that “frat boys” had picked up on the classes and had begun taking them as well.
In plain English, while the classes were not strictly limited to athletes, no one really wanted non-athletes in the class. It was just that they couldn’t be kept out. And the last thing that anyone wanted was for word about these classes to get out, which it did. Lots of “frat boys” apparently have (worthless) African-American minors.
And by the way, UNC is certainly not alone. We have great love for Duke and Duke tries to do thing the right way, but Duke has had issues before. Nothing like this, but still issues. So has Notre Dame. So has Harvard. Money and college sports have not mixed well. And whatever else it is, or could be, the NCAA is not really organized to punish academic fraud.
However, this case increasingly appears to be a hinge for the association. Pursue serious punishment and UNC seems likely to sue; don’t do it and they might as well pack it in. No one will ever take it seriously again.
There are still probably alternatives for the NCAA. For one, they could reasonably force UNC to forfeit any event in which UNC used an ineligible player.
They could also force the university to return any money obtained with ineligible players.
Beyond that, we’re not sure what the options are, but that would at least be a reasonable answer to the finger UNC just gave the NCAA.
Of course, the best answer would have been for UNC to have stepped up and followed Aycock’s and Friday’s towering example and done it themselves.
It is still possible, we suppose, that the governor or legislature could step in but that also seems unlikely. And of course the ACC is headed by John Swofford, who was UNC’s A.D. during the early part of the scandal. And having just cut a deal with ESPN, he’s not going to turn around and damage assets.
None of that is likely to happen and the NCAA could fold like a cheap suit. UNC could get away with it.
A lot of this is academic, if you’ll forgive the pun, but when you get down to basics, it’s about people.
One of UNC’s proudest legacies is that is has always - always - been in the forefront in this state when it comes to racial equality and justice. The university heroically fought for academic freedom when it was threatened by Jim Crow. Smith famously helped to integrate restaurants around Chapel Hill and then helped to integrate ACC basketball.
The university has taken great pride in this legacy, as indeed has the entire state.
It’s another unfortunate- tragic is not too strong a word - casualty of this scandal.
For nearly two decades, UNC was willing to accept unqualified student-athletes, many of them African-Americans, was willing to let them compete and was grateful for the opportunity to exploit their talents during competition.
The university wasn’t nearly as willing to educate these young people as it was to make money off of their efforts.
UNC in fact exploited these young and women very effectively, profiting handsomely from their labor, often leaving them nothing in return. It’s not as vicious as the exploitation that took place in earlier decades, but you don’t have to try hard to hear an echo.
The betrayal of Aycock and Friday, two of the finest leaders this state has ever produced, was bad enough. This is a fundamental betrayal of character that makes UNC great and so very special.
Or at least it used to be, anyway before the stupid bastards threw it all away.
_________________________________________
UNC Scandal Update - The Descent Continues And Accelerates
By JD King
@DBRTweetz on Aug 3, 2016, 3:26a
It’s pretty typical for schools to self-penalize when an NCAA penalty looms. UNC chose not to do that in its response to the NCAA Letter of Allegations, which is arrogant and pretty revealing: the school is essentially giving the NCAA the finger because it figures it can get away with massive academic fraud.
There was a time when UNC was prepared to sacrifice athletics for integrity; Tuesday’s announcement means that it’s pretty much the opposite now. UNC will do anything to protect the brand - or what’s left of it anyway.
It’s not much.
The whole idea of the UNC Way, the noble public school which did things the right way - that’s over.
Had UNC behaved honorably post-scandal, it might have still salvaged some reputation. Today, there’s no meaningful difference between UNC and schools like UNLV, Fresno State, and Kentucky. UNC clearly thinks that this stain will wash out.
It will never wash out.
Carolina will never regain what it lost, and that’s more because of how it reacted to the scandal than the scandal itself.
It’s a great shame. UNC now has the distinction of being part of two of the greatest scandals in NCAA history, the current one and the Frank McGuire scandal of the early 1960s which involved multiple NCAA violations and allegations of point shaving.
William Aycock, then UNC’s president, forced McGuire out and swiftly de-emphasized basketball. He killed the Dixie Classic, the schedule was limited to 16 games, recruiting was restricted and new coach Dean Smith was simply told to run a clean program and to represent the university well.
In many respects, Aycock and UNC system president William Friday, working together, saved the university.
Today? UNC, faced with the worst academic scandal in NCAA history (and it’s not even close) has done everything possible to obfuscate and resist. And the general consensus is that they have an argument at least partly because the paper classes weren’t limited to athletes.
Even here though there is hokum: we seem to remember Deborah Crowder complaining that “frat boys” had picked up on the classes and had begun taking them as well.
In plain English, while the classes were not strictly limited to athletes, no one really wanted non-athletes in the class. It was just that they couldn’t be kept out. And the last thing that anyone wanted was for word about these classes to get out, which it did. Lots of “frat boys” apparently have (worthless) African-American minors.
And by the way, UNC is certainly not alone. We have great love for Duke and Duke tries to do thing the right way, but Duke has had issues before. Nothing like this, but still issues. So has Notre Dame. So has Harvard. Money and college sports have not mixed well. And whatever else it is, or could be, the NCAA is not really organized to punish academic fraud.
However, this case increasingly appears to be a hinge for the association. Pursue serious punishment and UNC seems likely to sue; don’t do it and they might as well pack it in. No one will ever take it seriously again.
There are still probably alternatives for the NCAA. For one, they could reasonably force UNC to forfeit any event in which UNC used an ineligible player.
They could also force the university to return any money obtained with ineligible players.
Beyond that, we’re not sure what the options are, but that would at least be a reasonable answer to the finger UNC just gave the NCAA.
Of course, the best answer would have been for UNC to have stepped up and followed Aycock’s and Friday’s towering example and done it themselves.
It is still possible, we suppose, that the governor or legislature could step in but that also seems unlikely. And of course the ACC is headed by John Swofford, who was UNC’s A.D. during the early part of the scandal. And having just cut a deal with ESPN, he’s not going to turn around and damage assets.
None of that is likely to happen and the NCAA could fold like a cheap suit. UNC could get away with it.
A lot of this is academic, if you’ll forgive the pun, but when you get down to basics, it’s about people.
One of UNC’s proudest legacies is that is has always - always - been in the forefront in this state when it comes to racial equality and justice. The university heroically fought for academic freedom when it was threatened by Jim Crow. Smith famously helped to integrate restaurants around Chapel Hill and then helped to integrate ACC basketball.
The university has taken great pride in this legacy, as indeed has the entire state.
It’s another unfortunate- tragic is not too strong a word - casualty of this scandal.
For nearly two decades, UNC was willing to accept unqualified student-athletes, many of them African-Americans, was willing to let them compete and was grateful for the opportunity to exploit their talents during competition.
The university wasn’t nearly as willing to educate these young people as it was to make money off of their efforts.
UNC in fact exploited these young and women very effectively, profiting handsomely from their labor, often leaving them nothing in return. It’s not as vicious as the exploitation that took place in earlier decades, but you don’t have to try hard to hear an echo.
The betrayal of Aycock and Friday, two of the finest leaders this state has ever produced, was bad enough. This is a fundamental betrayal of character that makes UNC great and so very special.
Or at least it used to be, anyway before the stupid bastards threw it all away.
UNC's bold response to the ANOA is deservedly drawing the attention of former NCAA Committee on Infractions staff, which may be telling of how the current COI will deal with UNC. Seems that academics are not outside the scope of the NCAA where the "student-athlete" is concerned and that UNC's statute of limitations defense is not pertinent.
Tom Yeager, who served nine years on the COI and for three its chair, told an N&O reporter that “academics very much is the NCAA’s purview,” especially with regard to eligibility-enhancing class credits, as in the UNC situation. “I believe there was knowledge within the athletic department about those courses,” said Yeager. He is being kind. Of course, there is a mountain of documented evidence supporting athletic staff's knowledge of the sham courses and other academic shenanigans to benefit student athletes.
Further, as to UNC's claim that some sort of statute of limitations had expired, Yeager basically said, that's not so. Yeager addressed UNC's positition that the clock had run out on the NCAA’s opportunity to look back. “Unless there’s a pattern,” he pointed out. Clearly, there was a "pattern" per the UNC cheating scheme, particularly involving the 18 years of fake AFAM courses in which athletes comprised half the enrollees. In that particular department, a "pattern" was established with the sham class creation by the dept head and an admin, whereby all initial enrollees were MBB, with FB and then other sports joining in, along with "legacy" students in the frat circles. Again, a mountain of documented evidence supports this.
Tom Yeager, who served nine years on the COI and for three its chair, told an N&O reporter that “academics very much is the NCAA’s purview,” especially with regard to eligibility-enhancing class credits, as in the UNC situation. “I believe there was knowledge within the athletic department about those courses,” said Yeager. He is being kind. Of course, there is a mountain of documented evidence supporting athletic staff's knowledge of the sham courses and other academic shenanigans to benefit student athletes.
Further, as to UNC's claim that some sort of statute of limitations had expired, Yeager basically said, that's not so. Yeager addressed UNC's positition that the clock had run out on the NCAA’s opportunity to look back. “Unless there’s a pattern,” he pointed out. Clearly, there was a "pattern" per the UNC cheating scheme, particularly involving the 18 years of fake AFAM courses in which athletes comprised half the enrollees. In that particular department, a "pattern" was established with the sham class creation by the dept head and an admin, whereby all initial enrollees were MBB, with FB and then other sports joining in, along with "legacy" students in the frat circles. Again, a mountain of documented evidence supports this.
And this, mostly for the benefit of a poster here who shall go unnamed, nearly two years after former UNC FB player Jackson Boyer was beaten by at least four of his teammates (aka the “Rude Boyz”), UNC reached a $795,000 settlement with Boyer this summer.
Boyer was a wide receiver and on Aug. 4, 2014, he was beaten at the Aloft Hotel in Chapel Hill, where the FB team stays during preseason camp.
As part of the settlement, UNC agreed to “continue its good faith, best efforts towards developing healthy team cultures, taking into account the recommendations of the university’s current working group tasked with addressing student issues involving hazing and bullying.”
The “Rude Boyz” – Des Lawrence, Donnie Miles, M.J. Stewart and Brian Walker – were suspended for one game and sat out UNC’s 2014 home opener, a 56-29 win against Liberty.
All four players still practiced with the team and played after their suspension ended. Lawrence, Miles and Stewart, all DBs, are still on the team and are among the team’s most important defensive players this season.
Go Heels!
Boyer was a wide receiver and on Aug. 4, 2014, he was beaten at the Aloft Hotel in Chapel Hill, where the FB team stays during preseason camp.
As part of the settlement, UNC agreed to “continue its good faith, best efforts towards developing healthy team cultures, taking into account the recommendations of the university’s current working group tasked with addressing student issues involving hazing and bullying.”
The “Rude Boyz” – Des Lawrence, Donnie Miles, M.J. Stewart and Brian Walker – were suspended for one game and sat out UNC’s 2014 home opener, a 56-29 win against Liberty.
All four players still practiced with the team and played after their suspension ended. Lawrence, Miles and Stewart, all DBs, are still on the team and are among the team’s most important defensive players this season.
Go Heels!
Pinehurst-I KNOW-UNC BAD, UNC Bad-already said so.
Not a fan of frats but I find it difficult to believe that "frat boys" and only frat boys would major in African American studies unless they are black. Everyone appreciates a gut class two (or a class where, if they put in the work, they get an "A" or "B". However, you are insinuating frat boys are only at UNC to party. Again I was a grad student there over 25v years ago (and spent a summer in Morehead City area) but remember at least my internship area being fairly racist. I can see many Mommies and daddys allowing Afriican American Studies on the transcrpts. The only things I can think of is milking the GPA for law school admissions (LSDAS score=any GPA+LSAT score). thnat are a big crock-see my notes throughout.
Who was Boyd? Did he 'talk"? I believe this unraveled because professors did come forward...
Also I don't necessarily buy the explotation of athletes thing. Bweek dwelled on it. Bweek also has Carolina in the top 15 schools/public schools. Did anyone point a gun to players heads tp take given classes? Are ALL UNC players morons? Though my grad school classmate never played varsity for UNC (played JV) he was probably a better student than I at a tme hs brother had a big drug problem. Also had dood PC skills. I likely feel more exploited by the situation than those involved-affects the value of my degree.
I can therefore argue that these "cheaters" didn't belong in college anyway...Then there's the Jerry tarkanian argument that, if given the chance, many of these non college types can succeed if gven a chance..
Yes, UNC BAD! However again let me refer to the 1988? Charlotte Observer study that concluded in the ACC during a given year no ACC school made less than 10 admissions exceptions for their major teams.
Not a fan of frats but I find it difficult to believe that "frat boys" and only frat boys would major in African American studies unless they are black. Everyone appreciates a gut class two (or a class where, if they put in the work, they get an "A" or "B". However, you are insinuating frat boys are only at UNC to party. Again I was a grad student there over 25v years ago (and spent a summer in Morehead City area) but remember at least my internship area being fairly racist. I can see many Mommies and daddys allowing Afriican American Studies on the transcrpts. The only things I can think of is milking the GPA for law school admissions (LSDAS score=any GPA+LSAT score). thnat are a big crock-see my notes throughout.
Who was Boyd? Did he 'talk"? I believe this unraveled because professors did come forward...
Also I don't necessarily buy the explotation of athletes thing. Bweek dwelled on it. Bweek also has Carolina in the top 15 schools/public schools. Did anyone point a gun to players heads tp take given classes? Are ALL UNC players morons? Though my grad school classmate never played varsity for UNC (played JV) he was probably a better student than I at a tme hs brother had a big drug problem. Also had dood PC skills. I likely feel more exploited by the situation than those involved-affects the value of my degree.
I can therefore argue that these "cheaters" didn't belong in college anyway...Then there's the Jerry tarkanian argument that, if given the chance, many of these non college types can succeed if gven a chance..
Yes, UNC BAD! However again let me refer to the 1988? Charlotte Observer study that concluded in the ACC during a given year no ACC school made less than 10 admissions exceptions for their major teams.
Read more carefully. Never said that "frat boys" were exclusively involved. Never said they "majored" in AFAM. They simply (and smartly) learned of the courses and found access, for a GPA-booster. Can't blame them. Can only blame the school. Also, mind you, these fake/scam classes were not limited to AFAM.
As for your race comments? That's complicated. Are you hinting at a "plantation" mentality at UNC? UNC creating a new dept (AFAM) and then establishing the fake class system within that dept to help keep academically ill-suited athletes in revenue-generating sports eligible to play, well now that kinda hints at another element of the "scandal"--race remains the third rail of collegiate athletics. No one will willingly touch that element.
As for Boyd, he was a walk-on WR, brought in to help boost the overall team GPA; happens in many programs and is not outside of the rules. But when he was beaten unconscious by four teammates and his parents learned of it, well, the incident was revealed to all. He has since transferred. He received $800k as a settlement.
As for the exploitation element beyond race, as Butch Davis once infamously announced at a team meeting, "You want an education, go to Harvard." Again, the pattern seems to have been to recruit the best athletes; if an athlete was admitted to the school as an "academic exception," that kid was typically ushered into a course schedule that was to help keep him eligible to play. Unless the kid proved to be a non-performer on the field or court; then the kid might self-direct his course selection, or just fade away. Try to put yourself in the place of a 17-year old kid, recruited by UNC, and then guided by staff through the system: what kid would speak out against the system while in that system?
Rashad McCants only came clean well after his days playing for Roy. McCants, mind you, went from academic probation to the Dean's List during the spring semester 2005, "earning" all As in four classes, in which he admitted he never attended a class nor did any work nor took any exam. The prior semester he had As in two AFAM classes and two Fs: in a Psych class and in an Algebra class, so he was headed for loss of eligibility going into UNC's 2005 championship. There are at least two lawsuits pending from affected players.
Lastly, please, neither I, nor anyone said "UNC athletes are morons." That is ridiculous, blatantly and categorically ridiculous and absurd. What is critical, though, during the 23-plus years of the scam classes, various key players were never burdened with coursework and the pursuit of an education. Some AFAM majors may have received degrees, but they did not receive an education.
Pnehurst, thanks for the reply. Yes lots of scummy things and people such as Davis and the alum head of the ACC. Should get death penalty as I have said. That said most school are involved in similar iincluding RU-just not to as bad an extent.
Already back in the mid 80s when I attended my FB team friends were also steered to classes geared for them (with GPAs in mind). I saw my friends name on my chem prof's desk on a post it though he never took chemistry, I saw FB players passed in class that didn't deserve to pass. Rutgers is not immune.
BTW re "gut classes" don't have to be bad. Some of us Cook grads here took "Environmental Design Analysis (EDA)-the well known "gut" environmental landscsape planning course (Prof who recently passed a big FB supporter). A bit boring but the simple overall message "think before doing" has stayed with me forever. You had to do your share or reading and studying but if you did an A or B was your reward. However my old friend on this board received a C+ or C. Great course if for only making m e think and how I should think of how things affect others (and is what I'm doing stupid or illogical)?
Already back in the mid 80s when I attended my FB team friends were also steered to classes geared for them (with GPAs in mind). I saw my friends name on my chem prof's desk on a post it though he never took chemistry, I saw FB players passed in class that didn't deserve to pass. Rutgers is not immune.
BTW re "gut classes" don't have to be bad. Some of us Cook grads here took "Environmental Design Analysis (EDA)-the well known "gut" environmental landscsape planning course (Prof who recently passed a big FB supporter). A bit boring but the simple overall message "think before doing" has stayed with me forever. You had to do your share or reading and studying but if you did an A or B was your reward. However my old friend on this board received a C+ or C. Great course if for only making m e think and how I should think of how things affect others (and is what I'm doing stupid or illogical)?
Yea and shooting someone in the face is the same as stealing someone's identity. This is why punishments typically are made to fit the crime..one situation is not equal to the other.
Similar threads
