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Pike’s ceiling?

We got higher caliber recruits known as shooters and don’t see it. . . .
I agree with much of your post, but not necessarily this part. That's really only Gavin, and he still may be a shooter with some seasoning. Pike got Cam, a terrific shooter, and he continued to shoot.

On the shooting, I think recruiting is the biggest issue. On the offense overall, on the other hand, it seems like the team could be better coached.
 
SBNation lists top 11 recruiting classes of the 2010s(max games are 40)

What they did the year before the class and with the class.
11) 2017 Texas Tech from 18-14(32) to 27-10(37)
10) 2016 Gonzaga from 28-8(36) to 37-2(39)
9) 2012 Michigan from 24-10(34) to 31-8(39)
8) 2015 Villanova from 33-3(36) to 35-5(40)
7) 2018 Duke from 29-8(37) to 32-6(38)
6) 2013 Kansas from 31-6(37) to 25-10(35)
5) 2014 UNC from 24-10(34) to 26-12(38)
4) 2016 Virginia from 29-8(37) to 23-11(34)
3) 2011 Kentucky from 29-9(38) to 38-2(40)
2) 2014 Kentucky from 29-11(40) to 38-1(39)
1) 2014 Duke 26-9(35) to 35-4(39)

I'm not saying we have a top 10 or top 20 in the 2020s, but just what classes like ours have done historically before and after as a record stand point.
I don’t know about Texas tech but the rest probably were loaded already. Ours seems to be a very unique situation.
 
against michigan state we actually ran some decent stuff including a continuity set that we see in high school a lot with diagonal back screens and screen the screener action. We actually got some layups and looks off of it too. First time i’ve seen us run anything like that. We also had some other good action that we either got decent looks and missed or michigan state finally started to snuff out and our players aren’t good enough to create with limited space.

Hopefully we can continue some of this for the rest of the year.

Agree - for about 10 minutes we actually were running a consistent offense and I was actually impressed with the movement we were seeing.

No idea why we gave that up. The substitutions probably didn’t help.
 
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Agree - for about 10 minutes we actually were running a consistent offense and I was actually impressed with the movement we were seeing.

No idea why we gave that up. The substitutions probably didn’t help.
i think the lack of leadership plays a role. Someone has to set an example when times are tough, this year when teams go on runs RU folds pretty badly. The errors multiple and the lead balloons They do recover at times and do play catch up but by then the damage is done.

RU does not have one guy who can settle the team or even offensive player where you say you want the guy in his hands...and if its Hyatt that means we are in trouble. Nothing on him because for Hyatts standards he is having a solid season. Pikes futlitly on managing the roster means Hyatt would have to be a wunderkind for RU to have a major success. Not fair to Hyatt
 
Everyone on this board is now dumber for having read this
How do you figure?

Rice coached at RU for 3 years:

2010-2011: 15-17
2011-2012: 14-18
2012-2013: 15-16

Pike’s first 3 years:

2016-2017: 15-18
2017-2018: 15-19
2018-2019: 14-17

If you go back through the games I think you’ll be surprised. Just because Rice was a lunatic doesn’t mean he was a bad coach.

I got news for you, a Mike Rice team would roll into the RAC right now and beat the crap out of us. They would out tough this current RU team.
 
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How do you figure?

Rice coached at RU for 3 years:

2010-2011: 15-17
2011-2012: 14-18
2012-2013: 15-16

Pike’s first 3 years:

2016-2017: 15-18
2017-2018: 15-19
2018-2019: 14-17

If you go back through the games I think you’ll be surprised. Just because Rice was a lunatic doesn’t mean he was a bad coach.

I got news for you, a Mike Rice team would roll into the RAC right now and beat the crap out of us. They would out tough this current RU team.
Pikiell is possibly the best coach we’ve ever had, period. There is no indication a Mike Rice coached team with these players would be any better, and in all likelihood they’d be worse. You’re also simply using record for the first 3 years (conveniently all that’s available for Rice), without regard for the historically bad team Pike followed.
 
I think Mike Rice (lunacy aside) was a good coach but I think @The RUT is exaggerating. The best team he had here (with a senior laden roster of mostly inherited players) was probably better than this year's team, but not by alot. I think an under control version of Mike Rice could've potentially been successful here but there's not particually any evidence that he was better than Pike.
 
How do you figure?

Rice coached at RU for 3 years:

2010-2011: 15-17
2011-2012: 14-18
2012-2013: 15-16

Pike’s first 3 years:

2016-2017: 15-18
2017-2018: 15-19
2018-2019: 14-17

If you go back through the games I think you’ll be surprised. Just because Rice was a lunatic doesn’t mean he was a bad coach.

I got news for you, a Mike Rice team would roll into the RAC right now and beat the crap out of us. They would out tough this current RU team.
Just to humor you a little:

Kenpom the year before Rice took over: 149
Kenpom in Rice first 3 years: 159, 78, 120

Kenpom the year before Pike took over: 279
Kenpom in Pike first 3 years: 135, 130, 78

Rice toughest SOS in first 3 years: 7.22 (year 1)
Pike toughest SOS in first 3 years: 9.76 (year 3)

You can say what you want based on your gut, but Pike took over a significantly worse program based on the numbers, and reached the same Kenpom peak with a tougher SOS (which got significantly harder two years later).

Rice kept the program roughly where it was when he took over, save for the year where his SOS was easiest, before he tanked the program (which I would consider part of his coaching resume).

This all completely disregards the apprehension toward bringing in Danny Hurley due to Rice’s meltdowns.
 
Pikiell is possibly the best coach we’ve ever had, period. There is no indication a Mike Rice coached team with these players would be any better, and in all likelihood they’d be worse. You’re also simply using record for the first 3 years (conveniently all that’s available for Rice), without regard for the historically bad team Pike followed.
lol I didn’t even say he would be doing better with these players.

I said a Mike Rice team would come into the RAC and absolutely bully this years Rutgers squad.

Go back and watch Rice’s teams. They were clearly trending in the right direction and Rice was beating ranked teams earlier than Pike and looked more competitive across the board.

Pike came in with Corey Sanders lol. You’re forgetting how rough it was with FHJ.

I like Beatty and Coburn, but they were not Corey.
 
I think Mike Rice (lunacy aside) was a good coach but I think @The RUT is exaggerating. The best team he had here (with a senior laden roster of mostly inherited players) was probably better than this year's team, but not by alot. I think an under control version of Mike Rice could've potentially been successful here but there's not particually any evidence that he was better than Pike.
This isn’t true.

Rice’s first year was essentially Dane Miller (Soph), James Beatty (Sr), Mike Coburn (Sr), Austin Johnson (Soph)

The rest were pretty much his no?

J Mitch was a Rice transfer, Poole, Biruta all got significant minutes.
 
lol I didn’t even say he would be doing better with these players.

I said a Mike Rice team would come into the RAC and absolutely bully this years Rutgers squad.

Go back and watch Rice’s teams. They were clearly trending in the right direction and Rice was beating ranked teams earlier than Pike and looked more competitive across the board.

Pike came in with Corey Sanders lol. You’re forgetting how rough it was with FHJ.

I like Beatty and Coburn, but they were not Corey.
Mitchell was a double digit scorer the year before. Miller made the Big East All-Freshman team the year before. Rice wasn’t left with nothing, and again, the numbers show the team he took over for was significantly better than the team Pike took over for.
 
I agree with much of your post, but not necessarily this part. That's really only Gavin, and he still may be a shooter with some seasoning. Pike got Cam, a terrific shooter, and he continued to shoot.

On the shooting, I think recruiting is the biggest issue. On the offense overall, on the other hand, it seems like the team could be better coached.
Loosing 2 grad transfers after the portal for non grad transfers is closed and limited nil money really handcuffed him. This is the one NIL change that needs to be made immediately. Even for grad transfers it can’t be transfer whenever.
 
Mitchell was a double digit scorer the year before. Miller made the Big East All-Freshman team the year before. Rice wasn’t left with nothing, and again, the numbers show the team he took over for was significantly better than the team Pike took over for.
My mistake, I thought Mitchell was a transfer Rice’s first year.

Regardless it doesn’t even matter. You’re avoiding the point that a Mike Rice coached team would beat the shit out of this years team.

Arguing over who took over a worse program is dumb as rocks. Talent wasn’t the issue with Eddie Jordan teams, it was the fact that they didn’t practice. They literally just did shoot around. FHJ at least tried to win games, EJ didn’t give a shit. He was hired to make people feel warm and fuzzy at RU.

Again, none of this matters. In 2024 we’re going to find out what his ceiling is.

The fact that we have a top 3-5 recruiting class coming in and people are worried about us not making the tournament is a very big problem.

A good coach that has 2 lottery picks makes the post season. Period.
 
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My mistake, I thought Mitchell was a transfer Rice’s first year.

Regardless it doesn’t even matter. You’re avoiding the point that a Mike Rice coached team would beat the shit out of this years team.

Arguing over who took over a worse program is dumb as rocks. Talent wasn’t the issue with Eddie Jordan teams, it was the fact that they didn’t practice. They literally just did shoot around. FHJ at least tried to win games, EJ didn’t give a shit. He was hired to make people feel warm and fuzzy at RU.

Again, none of this matters. In 2024 we’re going to find out what his ceiling is.

The fact that we have a top 3-5 recruiting class coming in and people are worried about us not making the tournament is a very big problem.

A good coach that has 2 lottery picks makes the post season. Period.
I’m not avoiding any point, I’m saying that you can’t compare teams with different players in different situations while trying to isolate the coach as the only variable. A Mike Rice coached team with vastly superior talent might beat this year’s team, while one with equal or lesser talent might not.

It’s also crazy to me that you’re making the argument that the numbers from the year prior to Pike taking over don’t matter, and the improvement after he took over doesn’t prove that he’s a good coach, because before he took over, they were poorly coached. Let’s try to use some logic here.

I agree that this year is a throwaway and next year is the real test.
 
My mistake, I thought Mitchell was a transfer Rice’s first year.

Regardless it doesn’t even matter. You’re avoiding the point that a Mike Rice coached team would beat the shit out of this years team.
Again, there's little evidence a Mike Rice coached team would "beat the shit" out of this year's team. The best Mike Rice did in three tries was Kenpom #78. That's better than our current Kenpom #94 but not by much. His other two teams were #120 and #106 which is, you know, worse than #94.
Arguing over who took over a worse program is dumb as rocks. Talent wasn’t the issue with Eddie Jordan teams, it was the fact that they didn’t practice. They literally just did shoot around. FHJ at least tried to win games, EJ didn’t give a shit. He was hired to make people feel warm and fuzzy at RU.
That's not really what I was agruing anyway, but for some reason you decided to add four sentences to a debate that you think is "dumb as rocks".
Again, none of this matters. In 2024 we’re going to find out what his ceiling is.

The fact that we have a top 3-5 recruiting class coming in and people are worried about us not making the tournament is a very big problem.
What "people" are worried about reflects a lot more on the people than it does on the coaching. If we win two league games in a row, all of the sudden the consensus among like 60% of this board will swing to "win championship next year". It's completely meaningless.
A good coach that has 2 lottery picks makes the post season. Period.
I agree, we should definitely make the post season next year.
 
I’m not avoiding any point, I’m saying that you can’t compare teams with different players in different situations while trying to isolate the coach as the only variable. A Mike Rice coached team with vastly superior talent might beat this year’s team, while one with equal or lesser talent might not.

It’s also crazy to me that you’re making the argument that the numbers from the year prior to Pike taking over don’t matter, and the improvement after he took over doesn’t prove that he’s a good coach, because before he took over, they were poorly coached. Let’s try to use some logic here.

I agree that this year is a throwaway and next year is the real test.
They didn’t practice… and had a coach that didnt care. Obviously their numbers are going to be crap.

Trying to package that as nothing was left over is insane to me.

Pike came into a situation where he had one of the best ISO guys in the conference on his team. We now realize how valuable that was to him.

I’m not even trying to poo poo Pike. I’m just saying, for you to make a statement like “the board is now dumber” for reading my post, you better have a clear cut explanation. Reality is, it’s not clear cut. Had Pike gotten let go after his 3rd season their records would be pretty damn similar.

And no, Rice’s 3rd year was his best team.
 
Again, there's little evidence a Mike Rice coached team would "beat the shit" out of this year's team. The best Mike Rice did in three tries was Kenpom #78. That's better than our current Kenpom #94 but not by much. His other two teams were #120 and #106 which is, you know, worse than #94.

That's not really what I was agruing anyway, but for some reason you decided to add four sentences to a debate that you think is "dumb as rocks".

What "people" are worried about reflects a lot more on the people than it does on the coaching. If we win two league games in a row, all of the sudden the consensus among like 60% of this board will swing to "win championship next year". It's completely meaningless.

I agree, we should definitely make the post season next year.
Why did you quote my responses to @GORU2014 and act like I was saying that stuff to you? 😂
 
Why did you quote my responses to @GORU2014 and act like I was saying that stuff to you? 😂
It piggybacked off a quote of a post I made.

But either way a lot of it is pretty independent of who you're responding to. Just ignore anything about FHJ or EJ, I agree it's not relevant.
 
It piggybacked off a quote of a post I made.

But either way a lot of it is pretty independent of who you're responding to. Just ignore anything about FHJ or EJ, I agree it's not relevant.
You can’t just ignore the context. Nobody would argue that Kyle Flood was better than Schiano because his teams had better records in the first 3 years. What he inherited was significantly different from what Schiano inherited either time, much like Rice vs. Pikiell.
 
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You can’t just ignore the context. Nobody would argue that Kyle Flood was better than Schiano because his teams had better records in the first 3 years. What he inherited was significantly different from what Schiano inherited either time, much like Rice vs. Pikiell.
Oh there are people that will argue flood schiano. Haha. Lots of nuts out there.
 
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You can’t just ignore the context. Nobody would argue that Kyle Flood was better than Schiano because his teams had better records in the first 3 years. What he inherited was significantly different from what Schiano inherited either time, much like Rice vs. Pikiell.
You can’t compare football and basketball. Two totally different animals with different challenges.
 
You can’t compare football and basketball. Two totally different animals with different challenges.
I think you’re just being intentionally obtuse at this point but feel free to go with Kevin Ollie taking over for Jim Calhoun vs. Danny Hurley taking over for Kevin Ollie if you want. I don’t think anyone would say Ollie is a better coach than Hurley even with a title in his second year
 
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I think you’re just being intentionally obtuse at this point but feel free to go with Kevin Ollie taking over for Jim Calhoun vs. Danny Hurley taking over for Kevin Ollie if you want. I don’t think anyone would say Ollie is a better coach than Hurley even with a title in his second year
lol your talking about two different sports.

Depth is significantly more important in football than it is in basketball.

Basketball is significantly easier to rebuild with 1 or 2 pieces.

In football, if you’re undersized you just get bullied.

In basketball, Myles Mack is a top scorer in RU history.

And now we’re comparing a national championship winning coach being replaced by a national championship winning coach by another national championship winning coach.

Such an incredibly dumb argument. You’re trying to act like the talent was depleted by Eddie Jordan when Pike’s star player was an Eddie Jordan player lol.

I’m taking on the court results and play and saying IMO Rice was better, and you’re trying to argue he’s not better because of the last guy. It honestly sounds like a political argument, that’s how dumb it is.
 
Back filling is the hidden key here for the longer term

Sommerville, Grant, and Dortch have to wind up big ten quality, with added talent to that thereafter, and our two young guards have to progress
Those 3 are potentially much more important to the program than Ace and Dylan.
 
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lol your talking about two different sports.

Depth is significantly more important in football than it is in basketball.

Basketball is significantly easier to rebuild with 1 or 2 pieces.

In football, if you’re undersized you just get bullied.

In basketball, Myles Mack is a top scorer in RU history.

And now we’re comparing a national championship winning coach being replaced by a national championship winning coach by another national championship winning coach.

Such an incredibly dumb argument. You’re trying to act like the talent was depleted by Eddie Jordan when Pike’s star player was an Eddie Jordan player lol.

I’m taking on the court results and play and saying IMO Rice was better, and you’re trying to argue he’s not better because of the last guy. It honestly sounds like a political argument, that’s how dumb it is.
I gave you an example in the same sport that you’re now also choosing to ignore because you’re not debating this in good faith, but rather trying to win.

Pikiell is better in terms of improvement over his predecessor.

Pikiell is better in terms of sustained trend over his first 3 years.

Pikiell is better in terms of longevity (he hasn’t been fired over something that was his own fault).

Pikiell is better in terms of not sending the program into the depths of D-I basketball.

Pikiell is better in terms of tournament appearances and wins.

Pikiell is proving to be better in terms of recruiting by landing 2 of the 3 highest ranked players in Rutgers history.

Pikiell is better, even if this year’s team isn’t as good as recent years.
 
I gave you an example in the same sport that you’re now also choosing to ignore because you’re not debating this in good faith, but rather trying to win.

Pikiell is better in terms of improvement over his predecessor.

Pikiell is better in terms of sustained trend over his first 3 years.

Pikiell is better in terms of longevity (he hasn’t been fired over something that was his own fault).

Pikiell is better in terms of not sending the program into the depths of D-I basketball.

Pikiell is better in terms of tournament appearances and wins.

Pikiell is proving to be better in terms of recruiting by landing 2 of the 3 highest ranked players in Rutgers history.

Pikiell is better, even if this year’s team isn’t as good as recent years.
lol you’re trying to say Pike is a better coach than Rice because EJ was worse than FHJ. Then to provide an example outside of RU, you’re saying look at JC to KO to DH at UConn.

I’m not trying to “win” anything. I shared an opinion of mine based off ON COURT results. You then made a smart remark about it, and the only thing you have to say to dispute my opinion is the guy before him sucked more than the guy before Rice.

Wild.
 
If we return the right kids from the current team we can potentially have a strong defensive team surrounding Ace and Dylan and be elite. Not a guarantee but very possible. That’s our most likely path to a successful year in my opinion.

Pike isn’t going to change to the point where he focuses primarily on outscoring opponents. But then, our current team is good at forcing turnovers - we just don’t execute the fast breaks. If you keep Davis, Williams, Mag and maybe Jeremiah (known for D) and blend them with Ace and Dylan (replacing Hyatt and Noah/ Simpson) in the line up the drop off on D isn’t that big (hypothetical example). We’re not going to keep Cliff though so we need to figure out the 5. Usually frosh cant step into that role successfully and Wolf doesn’t seem like the answr to me.
 
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lol you’re trying to say Pike is a better coach than Rice because EJ was worse than FHJ. Then to provide an example outside of RU, you’re saying look at JC to KO to DH at UConn.

I’m not trying to “win” anything. I shared an opinion of mine based off ON COURT results. You then made a smart remark about it, and the only thing you have to say to dispute my opinion is the guy before him sucked more than the guy before Rice.

Wild.
Pike’s best teams here have been far better than anything Rice ever did and the CURRENT team is not significantly worse than Rice’s best team. Pike’s third year (if we are restricting to three years for no particular reason) was basically equal to Rice’s best year.

You’re wrong about a lot of the other stuff as well, but even just looking purely on the court and fully ignoring any context there isn’t really any evidence for Rice > Pike.
 
lol you’re trying to say Pike is a better coach than Rice because EJ was worse than FHJ. Then to provide an example outside of RU, you’re saying look at JC to KO to DH at UConn.

I’m not trying to “win” anything. I shared an opinion of mine based off ON COURT results. You then made a smart remark about it, and the only thing you have to say to dispute my opinion is the guy before him sucked more than the guy before Rice.

Wild.
I’m also saying that based off ON COURT results Pike is better, and trend-wise he was better across the first 3 years, but unfortunately because ON COURT Rice couldn’t control himself, we don’t have more of a sample size and instead were rewarded with one of the two worst coaches in our program’s history.

But Rice was great!
 
Pike’s best teams here have been far better than anything Rice ever did and the CURRENT team is not significantly worse than Rice’s best team. Pike’s third year (if we are restricting to three years for no particular reason) was basically equal to Rice’s best year.

You’re wrong about a lot of the other stuff as well, but even just looking purely on the court and fully ignoring any context there isn’t really any evidence for Rice > Pike.
I’m also saying that based off ON COURT results Pike is better, and trend-wise he was better across the first 3 years, but unfortunately because ON COURT Rice couldn’t control himself, we don’t have more of a sample size and instead were rewarded with one of the two worst coaches in our program’s history.

But Rice was great!
Strictly keeping it to 3 years because obviously that's all we got since ya know...he's a lunatic...

Rice's career was also super short. The guy coached 3 years at Robert Morris. 1st year he won the conference regular season, then followed that up with back to back years as a regular season and conference tournament champ before jumping to RU.

Pike spent 11 years at Stony Brook won his regular season 4 times, and only in his final year there did he win the conference tournament. Now I get that he had to get the ball rolling there, so obviously it's not like all 11 years he was championship hunting, but after he got the ball rolling it took him 7 years to get him over the hump.

We will just have to agree to disagree, but Pike has gotten a ton of support at RU. Far more than any other coach since I can remember (Wenzel years I was too young for).

Like I said, he's got 2 lottery picks coming in with a big man that every coach would love to have. We will see how it stacks up.
 
Strictly keeping it to 3 years because obviously that's all we got since ya know...he's a lunatic...

Rice's career was also super short. The guy coached 3 years at Robert Morris. 1st year he won the conference regular season, then followed that up with back to back years as a regular season and conference tournament champ before jumping to RU.

Pike spent 11 years at Stony Brook won his regular season 4 times, and only in his final year there did he win the conference tournament. Now I get that he had to get the ball rolling there, so obviously it's not like all 11 years he was championship hunting, but after he got the ball rolling it took him 7 years to get him over the hump.

We will just have to agree to disagree, but Pike has gotten a ton of support at RU. Far more than any other coach since I can remember (Wenzel years I was too young for).

Like I said, he's got 2 lottery picks coming in with a big man that every coach would love to have. We will see how it stacks up.
There’s no reason to restrict to three years because your own posts claim that context and inherited talent are not relevant. If you believe that, then there’s no reason not to compare to Pikiell’s entire tenure. If you *don’t* believe that then you are now contradicting yourself.
 
Strictly keeping it to 3 years because obviously that's all we got since ya know...he's a lunatic...

Rice's career was also super short. The guy coached 3 years at Robert Morris. 1st year he won the conference regular season, then followed that up with back to back years as a regular season and conference tournament champ before jumping to RU.

Pike spent 11 years at Stony Brook won his regular season 4 times, and only in his final year there did he win the conference tournament. Now I get that he had to get the ball rolling there, so obviously it's not like all 11 years he was championship hunting, but after he got the ball rolling it took him 7 years to get him over the hump.

We will just have to agree to disagree, but Pike has gotten a ton of support at RU. Far more than any other coach since I can remember (Wenzel years I was too young for).

Like I said, he's got 2 lottery picks coming in with a big man that every coach would love to have. We will see how it stacks up.

You know Mike Rice inherited a pretty good 17-11 loss RM team, right? His two NCAA teams finished with 11 and 12 losses. The difference was he had a run in the conference tournies to pick up more wins. The teams weren’t that much better than his predecessor’s. Pike inherited a project. Team that had recently transitioned to D1 and not yet having a 500 season.
 
There’s no reason to restrict to three years because your own posts claim that context and inherited talent are not relevant. If you believe that, then there’s no reason not to compare to Pikiell’s entire tenure. If you *don’t* believe that then you are now contradicting yourself.
That’s why I said after he got the ball rolling there and completely ignored what happened at the start of his career there…

And I’m forced to restrict it to three years because he only had 3 years at each stop…
 
That’s why I said after he got the ball rolling there and completely ignored what happened at the start of his career there…

And I’m forced to restrict it to three years because he only had 3 years at each stop…
You aren't forced to do that lol, you can compare careers of different lengths.
 
You know Mike Rice inherited a pretty good 17-11 loss RM team, right? His two NCAA teams finished with 11 and 12 losses. The difference was he had a run in the conference tournies to pick up more wins. The teams weren’t that much better than his predecessor’s. Pike inherited a project. Team that had recently transitioned to D1 and not yet having a 500 season.
You know Mike Rice inherited a program that hadn’t made the NCAAs since 1991, right?

In his 2nd year as HC he ended that streak.

We all see what we want to see.
 
You know Mike Rice inherited a program that hadn’t made the NCAAs since 1991, right?

In his 2nd year as HC he ended that streak.

We all see what we want to see.
Who cares? NCAAs is based on one stretch of a few games. The team Rice inherited was a pretty good 17-11 team. Rice’s best team was arguably his first team that didn’t make the tourney. Best record.
 
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