I absolutely love this staff and how hard they are working and it seems like we are offering alot of guys. How many of these do we actually have a fighting chance with in your opinion because every day we see more offers but we haven't sealed the deal with any of these top tier guys.
Question for BK
- Thread starter richthedentist
- Start date
First...You have to realize that it's a long summer.
That said, it feels like the staff has already scored a huge win with the recruitment of Doucoure. Kiss also brings some experienced scoring with an edge to his game. So the door is already pushed open for top tier players to choose Rutgers.
This recruiting cycle will in many ways make or break Pikiells tenure at RU. It is very important that the talent level increase across the board if a jump to the middle of the league is going to be possible.
Fixating on guys like Reid and Mathis is easy for fans to do, but reality is that getting both would be near miraculous. I'd settle for one, which I do believe is possible.
As you said before, the staff is out grinding. If we lose out on these guys, it won't be because somebody out worked us!
That said, it feels like the staff has already scored a huge win with the recruitment of Doucoure. Kiss also brings some experienced scoring with an edge to his game. So the door is already pushed open for top tier players to choose Rutgers.
This recruiting cycle will in many ways make or break Pikiells tenure at RU. It is very important that the talent level increase across the board if a jump to the middle of the league is going to be possible.
Fixating on guys like Reid and Mathis is easy for fans to do, but reality is that getting both would be near miraculous. I'd settle for one, which I do believe is possible.
As you said before, the staff is out grinding. If we lose out on these guys, it won't be because somebody out worked us!
Can't speak for the staff, but I can't say his is a name I've heard strongly connected with RU
OSU coach lost his job over poor recruiting in their administrations opinion. . Even the talented teachers and head guys need talent to bring them home..I like Pike..
Mathis Mathis ....have I said lately
How much I want Mathis to go to RU!
How much I want Mathis to go to RU!
From what I have seen it seems like we are in it with Reid if he wants to stay local but we have a much better shot with Mathis
This recruiting cycle will in many ways make or break Pikiells tenure at RU. It is very important that the talent level increase across the board if a jump to the middle of the league is going to be possible.
Agree with BK here and reminds me of Gary Waters early recruiting results that doomed him early on at RU. If the new Coach can't get Blue Chip recruits then RU will be a factor in the B1G like we were in the BE.
Waters could not land superior talent and continued to start Bannon's players for multiple seasons. OTOH Mike Rice got talented recruits early and showed some promise before he destructed.
Really hoping that Coach Pike can pull off a VG recruiting class very soon. He appears to be our best HC in a long time and represents RU well. Easy guy to root for.
Agree with BK here and reminds me of Gary Waters early recruiting results that doomed him early on at RU. If the new Coach can't get Blue Chip recruits then RU will be a factor in the B1G like we were in the BE.
Waters could not land superior talent and continued to start Bannon's players for multiple seasons. OTOH Mike Rice got talented recruits early and showed some promise before he destructed.
Really hoping that Coach Pike can pull off a VG recruiting class very soon. He appears to be our best HC in a long time and represents RU well. Easy guy to root for.
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We know so little about recruiting with Pikiell but, with that big qualification, I'm not sure I agree that this recruiting cycle will make or break him. It's entirely possible that he is a coach whose recruiting success builds slowly, not quickly, and emerges as his relationships with high level recruits grow longer and his performance as a coach starts more and more to be noticed and resonate with recruits. His tenure is too short, and there's too much unknown, to declare this cycle make or break.
Pikiell has taken over a basketball program that has consecutive losing seasons for a decade.That sour taste must be stopped by better recruiting starting with 2018 or his positive early impression will quickly dissipate .Winning really matters in a power conference as we have seen with the firing of the Ohio State head coach.
Sorry, but it just doesn't ring true that it's quick fix or no fix.
2018 is a huge recruiting cycle that will make or break Pikiells tenure. I think we're all expecting a reasonable step forward again this year from last years squad. Taking a step back in 2018 with Pikiell recruits replacing Mike Williams, Deshawn, Candido & probably Corey would be a bad look for a coach going into the second to last year of his contract (which in college bball is essentially your last year). Landing Doucoure is an coup we shouldn't forget, but we really do need to land a Montez Mathis level guy next to him + turn Eugene/Issa into legit B1G starters (which I think they can be).
In short, the fanbase will be calling for Pikiell's head if he takes a huge step back talent wise in 2018 after showing two years of progress using mostly Eddie's guys as his core his first two years. To be clear, I think Pikiell is a great coach, I love his and the staff's hustle on the recruiting trail, we just need some serious 'wins' to compliment Doucoure and make 2018's young squad a really good one.
In short, the fanbase will be calling for Pikiell's head if he takes a huge step back talent wise in 2018 after showing two years of progress using mostly Eddie's guys as his core his first two years. To be clear, I think Pikiell is a great coach, I love his and the staff's hustle on the recruiting trail, we just need some serious 'wins' to compliment Doucoure and make 2018's young squad a really good one.
One of the problems with previous coaches after Waters was that players didn't develop. Pikiell got a lot more than I thought was capable out of our team and made us competitive and fun to watch last year. If he can do the same this year and win a few more B1G games then I think next year is when he needs to have a breakout recruiting year.
I can't believe there is talk about the fan base potentially calling for Pikiells head. Absolutely absurd after watching last season
^^ such is the reality of our miserable fans. Its sad. PIke did an amazing job and is our future for the time being.
Agree it's hard to think about 2 years in the future right now - nor do I think it would be warranted. I agree it would be absurd based solely off what we saw last season. I certainly hope it's not the case - just stating 2018 is a big year for the staff to "prove it" and have a team of all their recruits. I'm optimistic things will remain positive and I couldn't be more happy with our staff thus far!
Jrh51 has a legit point here....at some point ..."the honeymoon" period wears off.
An improvement in the win/loss column this coming year (say reversing 15-18 to 18-15 which means 6-12 in big ten play and one win in the big ten tourney at the garden) and a class of doucoure and Mathis signed in November extends the honeymoon another year
But at some point...it could flat line ... and things will be judged more ...
Year 3 has some risk for being that year....we lose double digit scorers from this year in Freeman and Williams, and sanders is a risk for leaving early...so year 3 could take a step back on the floor
Objectively ... fans will be VERY patient if we show a doucoure/Mathis class of 2018 signed in November with another solid player or two...and then a similar class in November of 2018 with class of 2019 players ....(2 more 4 star players and a couple of other solid additions)....even if we take a step
Backward in wins and losses in year 3
Conversely ...if we don't get these type of classes from the class of 2018 and class of 2019 and then regress in year 3....then it would NOT be unfair to be concerned on where things are going
I see it as a huge 18 month period ...
-very good class of 2018 signed in November
-18-15 season in 17-18
-very good class of 2019 signed in November of 2018
Then the program is restocked with talent that justifies Steve P getting 6 years to get it gojng, even if year takes a step back in the W-L column
Scangg, the board, mostly new guy posters, called for Gary Waters' head incessantly for years, and he took us to 3 NIT's in 5 years, reaching the finals one year. Way fans are. You had people complaining about Pikiell's class last year, when potential signees had only the mess the program had become under Hill, Mike Rice and Jordan to look at. Even a pied piper can't lure top recruits unless there is something solid to lure them, and last year there was zilch. RU's 2016-17 performance with a vastly outmanned team now gives recruits something to look at. And thus far, we have, indeed, landed some better recruits already. Hopefully more to come.
TL
TL
As a Rutgers fan there always are lots of ifs and buts .My preference is more wins than losses.
RU bball board fan: "Six year fix. Six year fix. Six year fix. If he doesn't do it in year two, it could be over."
This reads like a complete recasting of the question. We've gone from make or break to don't take a huge step back. First, I'm not sure there is a huge step back that can be taken in recruiting. Second, yours is just a break scenario, not a make scenario. Sure, it's possible that Pikiell could so obviously implode that he gets fired. I guess. But I don't think that a failure to have a very good class should break him. We can't require a quick fix.
Willis
Read the answer in my post above...then comment
This fan base is smart enough to know when things are headed in the right direction and when things look concerning
Clearly, there are scanairos that if recruiting doesn't work out as hoped ..AND the results on the court (especially in year 3 if sanders isn't there and that it's mostly his players then) that people will start to be worried....with some justification. Not necessarily calling for his head...but
Recruiting well now (and next year clearly gives him a pass) in most everyone eyes that he deserves to have 6 years to win with his players if things don't quite progress on the court the next couple of years....
So this year recruiting isn't a make or break recruiting year....but a good recruiting class really could) make the trajectory very promising and a disappointing class of 2018 will leave a lot of unanswered question heading into year 3 on where this could be going
I've said this over and over. Let's assume nothing scandalous happens, I don't see any coach being in Hot water until year 5 of their tenures. Full recruiting cycles. Redshirt to graduation. Plus we will be getting the full shares then and can throw some money around
I think the how important 2018 and 2019 recruiting that is talked about is kinda old news right now.....at this time in 2016, yes but not as much now.
Here is where things stood....
2016 roster around this time last year with graduating class in 2017-18 season
Sanders (Jr)-Starter
Nigel Johnson (Sr)-Starter
Mike Williams (Sr)-Starter
Deshawn Freeman (Sr)-Starter
DJ Foreman (Sr) /Candido Sa
Issa Thiam (Fr)
Jon Laurent (Jr)
Ibrahim Diallo (RS Jr) (potential starter)
Shaq Doorson (RS Jr) (potential starter)
We were looking at replacing 4 seniors and 4 juniors with the 2018 recruiting class and 2019 classes as well.
Fast forward to today and every recruit is important but the 2018 recruiting class is not as severe as it was at this time last year....here is what we are looking at for the 2018-19 season, based on where we are today....we really only need 3 players and potentially only 2, if we somehow reeled in Vance Jackson as a transfer, which lightens the requirement for not only the 2018 class having to have 4 recruits in it, but also lightens the load of having to land 4 bonafide 2019 recruits as well......The other key recruit was a reset, with the landing of Peter Kiss, who is a RS Soph and takes one of the other spots that we thought was another 2018 recruit we needed to restock with.
Here is where we could be for the 2018-19 season, with the obvious ongoing question of whether Corey Sanders is or isn't a full 4 year starter or does he pursue his Pro career....lets assume for a scholarship perspective, he actually stayed for his senior season.....while I am hopeful we land Mathis, I will be pro RU and plug him in, just to outline how 2018's class is important but not as dire as we believe, IF you land him or a quality shooting guard (there are plenty of options as well)
Sanders (Sr)-Starter- OR FR Guard (as a 2018 recruit)
Geo Baker (So)-Starter or first off bench)
Souf Mensah (SR-guard off bench)
Montez Mathis or Shooting Guard TBD -Mike Williams spot
Peter Kiss (RS Soph)-Takes Laurent spot as a SR
Matt Bullock (RS Soph)
TBD-Freeman's spot (Vance Jackson or someone at that positon RS Soph)
TBD-Candido Sa spot or DJ Foreman spot
Issa Thiam (Jr)
Eugene Omoyuri (Jr)
Mamadou Doucoure (FR)
Myles Johnson (SO)-Diallo's spot
Shaq Doorson (RS SR)
Based on where we are today, we are a Vance Jackson or a transfer into that spot from only needing to replace Sanders, Williams and Sa....if Sanders stayed somehow (unlikely), but the bottom line is dependent on how we fill that last spot, can pretty much eliminate 2018 having to have been this 4-5 player class that replaced 4-5 seniors etc...
A) land a combo guard in case Sanders doesn't stay for his 4th season (targets being worked on, while Baker develops as a starter)
B) land Mathis or a shooting guard or plug Peter Kiss in as a starter here or at SF
C) Find out the status of where we go with Vance Jackson as a SF/hybrid PF.....Plug Kiss in as a swingman SF, or a freshman recruit at wing (plenty of targets under consideration)
D) Develop Thiam into a legitimate starter at SF or compliment to Peter Kiss as a SF.
E) Find a suitable replacement for Freeman (Jackson would be ideal, but Doucoure is a huge recruit that can rebound and defend at a high level and Johnson will have a year in the system to soften that departure.
If you get a Mathis level SG OR Vance Jackson, things are trending way up.....if you somehow landed BOTH Jackson and Mathis or solid SG, the "cliff of recruiting for 2018" is pretty much eliminated.
Here is where things stood....
2016 roster around this time last year with graduating class in 2017-18 season
Sanders (Jr)-Starter
Nigel Johnson (Sr)-Starter
Mike Williams (Sr)-Starter
Deshawn Freeman (Sr)-Starter
DJ Foreman (Sr) /Candido Sa
Issa Thiam (Fr)
Jon Laurent (Jr)
Ibrahim Diallo (RS Jr) (potential starter)
Shaq Doorson (RS Jr) (potential starter)
We were looking at replacing 4 seniors and 4 juniors with the 2018 recruiting class and 2019 classes as well.
Fast forward to today and every recruit is important but the 2018 recruiting class is not as severe as it was at this time last year....here is what we are looking at for the 2018-19 season, based on where we are today....we really only need 3 players and potentially only 2, if we somehow reeled in Vance Jackson as a transfer, which lightens the requirement for not only the 2018 class having to have 4 recruits in it, but also lightens the load of having to land 4 bonafide 2019 recruits as well......The other key recruit was a reset, with the landing of Peter Kiss, who is a RS Soph and takes one of the other spots that we thought was another 2018 recruit we needed to restock with.
Here is where we could be for the 2018-19 season, with the obvious ongoing question of whether Corey Sanders is or isn't a full 4 year starter or does he pursue his Pro career....lets assume for a scholarship perspective, he actually stayed for his senior season.....while I am hopeful we land Mathis, I will be pro RU and plug him in, just to outline how 2018's class is important but not as dire as we believe, IF you land him or a quality shooting guard (there are plenty of options as well)
Sanders (Sr)-Starter- OR FR Guard (as a 2018 recruit)
Geo Baker (So)-Starter or first off bench)
Souf Mensah (SR-guard off bench)
Montez Mathis or Shooting Guard TBD -Mike Williams spot
Peter Kiss (RS Soph)-Takes Laurent spot as a SR
Matt Bullock (RS Soph)
TBD-Freeman's spot (Vance Jackson or someone at that positon RS Soph)
TBD-Candido Sa spot or DJ Foreman spot
Issa Thiam (Jr)
Eugene Omoyuri (Jr)
Mamadou Doucoure (FR)
Myles Johnson (SO)-Diallo's spot
Shaq Doorson (RS SR)
Based on where we are today, we are a Vance Jackson or a transfer into that spot from only needing to replace Sanders, Williams and Sa....if Sanders stayed somehow (unlikely), but the bottom line is dependent on how we fill that last spot, can pretty much eliminate 2018 having to have been this 4-5 player class that replaced 4-5 seniors etc...
A) land a combo guard in case Sanders doesn't stay for his 4th season (targets being worked on, while Baker develops as a starter)
B) land Mathis or a shooting guard or plug Peter Kiss in as a starter here or at SF
C) Find out the status of where we go with Vance Jackson as a SF/hybrid PF.....Plug Kiss in as a swingman SF, or a freshman recruit at wing (plenty of targets under consideration)
D) Develop Thiam into a legitimate starter at SF or compliment to Peter Kiss as a SF.
E) Find a suitable replacement for Freeman (Jackson would be ideal, but Doucoure is a huge recruit that can rebound and defend at a high level and Johnson will have a year in the system to soften that departure.
If you get a Mathis level SG OR Vance Jackson, things are trending way up.....if you somehow landed BOTH Jackson and Mathis or solid SG, the "cliff of recruiting for 2018" is pretty much eliminated.
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IMO a 5 year rebuild and fans need to be patient.
A quality coach and staff is the first step and I think everyone is comfortable on that score.
Simplistic answer but he just needs to bring in more talent and hopefully that happens.
A quality coach and staff is the first step and I think everyone is comfortable on that score.
Simplistic answer but he just needs to bring in more talent and hopefully that happens.
People are crazy to think Pikiell won't get at least 5 years. Miracles don't happen in one day or one year. We have never had a staff working as hard as these guys. Our team has made some very great strides in their first season. Most were on the defensive end. We are lucky to have these men. I am enjoying the ride.
knights1212
I don't think ANY ONE is say this at all ...but clearly, he will still to have people questioning things if we take a STEP back on the court AND the recruiting and recruiting trajectory isn't improving enough after a couple of more years....(Say after year 3)
I think he gets it DONE and, eventually, DONE BIG....but clearly positive momentum (especially in recruiting) building on positive momemtum really would help the building (not BUILDING and not Rebuilding) of this program....and have fans buying more even if the W-L take a few steps back along the way....
These posts are repeatedly talking past each other, or just changing the subject, which is fine. It started with make or break, which is a statement that success or failure comes with this recruiting cycle. And at times, like this last post, it veers toward "people questioning things" if we "take a step back," which is a very different issue.
Setting aside that I'm not sure there's a full step back to actually be taken in recruiting, the issue was whether this recruiting class will make or break Pikiell, not whether a bad one could create questions. And I think its extreme to conclude that this recruiting cycle is the ultimate success or failure cycle.
Also, if you're worried that recruits and fans will have questions if there isn't a continuous uptick in recruiting and success, well stop worrying and shift it over to the dead certainty column. Improvement and success is rarely linear or a smooth upward curve. There will be gains, losses, fits and starts. That's how it happens.
So, sure, we can talk about how fans and others will react to short term events, whether positive or negative, but none of that changes that expecting a short term fix or absolutely requiring short term success in recruiting in this cycle is not very reasonable. RU needs a longer term approach.
Setting aside that I'm not sure there's a full step back to actually be taken in recruiting, the issue was whether this recruiting class will make or break Pikiell, not whether a bad one could create questions. And I think its extreme to conclude that this recruiting cycle is the ultimate success or failure cycle.
Also, if you're worried that recruits and fans will have questions if there isn't a continuous uptick in recruiting and success, well stop worrying and shift it over to the dead certainty column. Improvement and success is rarely linear or a smooth upward curve. There will be gains, losses, fits and starts. That's how it happens.
So, sure, we can talk about how fans and others will react to short term events, whether positive or negative, but none of that changes that expecting a short term fix or absolutely requiring short term success in recruiting in this cycle is not very reasonable. RU needs a longer term approach.
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Fans (even those that believe in the rebuild process or those jaded that only are results-oriented) are allowed to feel anyway they like....The bigger concern is what I tend to get offline and that's whether the majority of fans understand perception of an improved program vs reality of what the numbers will tell over a long run.
It could be similar to Schiano and football, playing lots of cupcakes and building a fan base that enjoyed watching hard-nosed football with an identity vs those other fans that pointed to no conference titles, no major bowl appearances etc.
The other concern is that there is a "perception" that RU is taking on cupcakes for the OOC, which the RPI of the opponents supports that notion....but RU isn't an NCAA contending team today, so why worry about whether strength of schedule is in line with other schools.
So the bar or goalposts are going to constantly moving....then it will be recruiting isn't enough, then the schedule isn't tough enough, then it's how many road games OOC is RU going to schedule, then it's when does RU get to an NIT status, then NCAA status etc, etc....
There are sooo many steps RU has to take before worrying about whether RU has a better year in 2017-18 vs 2018-19.....The most important thing is "eye-test" and despite RU not having a winning record, the game to game improvement from November to March was very attractive for recruits to consider us as a program.
Since that happened in Year One, I'm confident we can see the necessary bump in recruiting in 2018 & 2019....whether it's up to all fans standards (some only pay attention if the player is a 5* recruit or is from NJ), we can debate as we improve.
I am depressed now.
Stop the timelines! Forget your notion of what successful recruiting is. Allow the coaching staff to make mistakes and potentially LEARN from them. I'd think there is a HUGE difference recruiting for Stony Brook and a P5 school. Put Pikiell on the learning curve and don't take him off of it.
We aren't getting Mathis or Reid. We don't need a Mathis or Reid to succeed. Pikiell turned 2015-16 in to 2016-17. He will upgrade roster from a skill and an intangible point of view. Gradual. It'll take time.
Stop the timelines! Forget your notion of what successful recruiting is. Allow the coaching staff to make mistakes and potentially LEARN from them. I'd think there is a HUGE difference recruiting for Stony Brook and a P5 school. Put Pikiell on the learning curve and don't take him off of it.
We aren't getting Mathis or Reid. We don't need a Mathis or Reid to succeed. Pikiell turned 2015-16 in to 2016-17. He will upgrade roster from a skill and an intangible point of view. Gradual. It'll take time.
If we don't get Mathis, the coaching staff will be majorly disappointed. Pikiell and Co. have spent more time recruiting him than any other player since they arrived on the banks. He's their main target. Mathis knows it. His family knows it. We know it. If the time comes when Mathis announces his decision and he doesn't choose RU, his toughest task will not be saying yes to another school, it'll be saying no to Rutgers.
Teams that are at the bottom rankings in a power conference don't have time on their side.They must show tangible improvement or better talent will continue to stay away.Mathis or a player of his scoring prowess is a absolute must get for 2018 because of the players leaving at the end of this season.Lets not forget with the team improvement last season scoring 60 points a game against B1G competition was very difficult and so was getting league wins.
Look at what Minnesota did going from a very bad season to a NCAA bid because of the recruits brought in who were scorers.It can be done at Rutgers but there must be a sense of urgency.
Pikiell is a program builder - trained under a program builder
- Pikiell is not an "ad campaign" or a high budget movie - where if it isn't electrifying in the initial roll-out then consider the die cast, the campaign a bust and time to begin considering the next move.
Pikiell is going to build his kind of team, one that is can function well within his style of play - it may take four years, it may take six years but he will have this team competing at the top of the B1G. He has already made great strides toward making RU a serious opponent on everybody's calendar - other teams are now aware that they have to bring their "A" game and be ready to seriously hustle.
- Pikiell is not an "ad campaign" or a high budget movie - where if it isn't electrifying in the initial roll-out then consider the die cast, the campaign a bust and time to begin considering the next move.
Pikiell is going to build his kind of team, one that is can function well within his style of play - it may take four years, it may take six years but he will have this team competing at the top of the B1G. He has already made great strides toward making RU a serious opponent on everybody's calendar - other teams are now aware that they have to bring their "A" game and be ready to seriously hustle.
You have to ask yourself on June 9th 2017....Why the heck would i go to Rutgers if i can go and play on other P5 schools?
That narrative has to change over time and it won't happen overnight.
That narrative has to change over time and it won't happen overnight.
