Rebounding is not why we Lost

[BillyC80]

It was poor shooting and too many fouls.

- Game was tied at the half

- Second half we had 2 ORebs, they had only 1

- We took more shots from the field

- We had a ton of open looks and missed them

- They took way more FTs

- They outscored us at FT line by 11, won by 10

- Rebound differential was based on all our FG misses and them making almost all their FTs

 

[Saint Puppy]

I really thought we could have won this game - yes everything you are saying is true. But getting destroyed on rebounding is definitely part of the equation no matter how you slice it.

 

[zappaa]

It was poor shooting and too many fouls.

- Game was tied at the half

- Second half we had 2 ORebs, they had only 1

- We took more shots from the field

- We had a ton of open looks and missed them

- They took way more FTs

- They outscored us at FT line by 11, won by 10

- Rebound differential was based on all our FG misses and them making almost all their FTs

So Cliff and Mag can’t get offensive rebounds off of our misses and make a difference?

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

They rebounded 40.8% of their misses
We reboubded 17.1% of our misses

Against SHU they rebounded 38.3% of their misses. Not much difference.

68 possessions. They scored 70 we scored 60. This Rutgers team split difference. We need to score 5 more and give up 5 less.

How do we acheive?
1 way is rebounding both glasses, but there are many other ways.

 

[Kbee3]

One of my buds opined that this might be the most offensively challenged Big Ten team...at least in this century.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

A big issue absolutely is rebounding. It’s simply gut wrenching to play a whole possession of great defense, then not secure the rebound and give up a basket. When that starts happening multiple times over like in the Miss State game it ends up with carry over effect that impacts other areas of the game too - including on the offensive end. Same issue in the Wake game when we closed the gap. That happened and we crumbled.

Seton Hall didn’t capitalize on many of their second chance opportunities and when we put them at the line they missed (we did at least protect the glass off their misses from the line).

 

[bac2therac]

We arent rebounding because guards are jacking up shots 18-20 feet out willy nilly with no one close to the basket

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

We arent rebounding because guards are jacking up shots 18-20 feet out willy nilly with no one close to the basket

The problem is mostly about the defensive glass.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

They rebounded 40.8% of their misses
We reboubded 17.1% of our misses

Against SHU they rebounded 38.3% of their misses. Not much difference.

68 possessions. They scored 70 we scored 60. This Rutgers team split difference. We need to score 5 more and give up 5 less.

How do we acheive?
1 way is rebounding both glasses, but there are many other ways.

I don’t think it’s about the stats. It’s just gut wrenching to play tough in your nose D then not get the stop and give up points because you miss the defensive board. I think after a while it gets frustrating and the offense starts being less patient and ball rotations suffer, etc.

I’m not saying there aren’t other things to improve more that it seems the turning point in our losses was sparked by failure to grab defensive boards and then giving up baskets where we could have had a stop.

 

[BillyC80]

Guys, please re-read my OP. We lost the game in the second half yet in that half we got EVERY defensive rebound except one, and we actually had 2 Offensive rebounds of our own in that half.

I rewatched the second half, expecting to see a lot of second chance points for MS State, but they literally had ZERO second chance points in that half. On their one and only offensive rebound in that half, they missed the second shot.

In general, yes we can improve our rebounding, but against MS State that is not the reason for our loss.

 

[Jerseylegends]

Guys, please re-read my OP. We lost the game in the second half yet in that half we got EVERY defensive rebound except one, and we actually had 2 Offensive rebounds of our own in that half.

I rewatched the second half, expecting to see a lot of second chance points for MS State, but they literally had ZERO second chance points in that half. On their one and only offensive rebound in that half, they missed the second shot.

In general, yes we can improve our rebounding, but against MS State that is not the reason for our loss.

When there are multiple reasons why the team isn't performing well you can say any of the multiple reasons aren't the reason the team lost. Lol if that makes sense. But yeah when the team can't find any offense. Nothing else really matters if you can't put the ball in the basket. Don't want to force Hyatt to try and do too much. This team really needed a a scoring wing from the portal this year. Unfortunately coaches lost Spencer too late in the game to compensate. Next year they should know what they need from the portal already at this point.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

The reality is the only you know who you have are freshman. Everyone else is a free agent. It's possible the reason Paul isn't here is because Pike did go to the portal and got Fernandes.

 

[fluoxetine]

It was poor shooting and too many fouls.

- Game was tied at the half

- Second half we had 2 ORebs, they had only 1

- We took more shots from the field

- We had a ton of open looks and missed them

- They took way more FTs

- They outscored us at FT line by 11, won by 10

- Rebound differential was based on all our FG misses and them making almost all their FTs

Uh, they rebounded >40% of their own misses. Rebounding was terrible and is a huge reason we lost. But sure it isn’t the only reason.

 

[fluoxetine]

We arent rebounding because guards are jacking up shots 18-20 feet out willy nilly with no one close to the basket

What about defensive rebounding?

 

[Loyal_2RU]

Guys, please re-read my OP. We lost the game in the second half yet in that half we got EVERY defensive rebound except one, and we actually had 2 Offensive rebounds of our own in that half.

I rewatched the second half, expecting to see a lot of second chance points for MS State, but they literally had ZERO second chance points in that half. On their one and only offensive rebound in that half, they missed the second shot.

In general, yes we can improve our rebounding, but against MS State that is not the reason for our loss.

Yes and that 15 point cushion we built in the first half was lost to missed rebounds. So a 5 point win becomes a 10 point loss.

 

[satnom]

I think BillyC’s overall point is RU lost game because we didn't make shots not because of lack of rebounding.

Simpson 3-14
Mag 3-10
Cliff 1-3
JaMike 2-5

3Pt 3-17

That’s the real reason RU got beat.

GO RU

 

[ImBadRU]

They better than us

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Guys, please re-read my OP. We lost the game in the second half yet in that half we got EVERY defensive rebound except one, and we actually had 2 Offensive rebounds of our own in that half.

I rewatched the second half, expecting to see a lot of second chance points for MS State, but they literally had ZERO second chance points in that half. On their one and only offensive rebound in that half, they missed the second shot.

In general, yes we can improve our rebounding, but against MS State that is not the reason for our loss.

First of all - Your math can’t be right man. We held our own on the glass reasonably well in the first half. They had 6 offensive boards vs our 5. Hence the even score. They somehow got to 13 total offensive rebounds though for the game, right? That means they were credited with grabbing 7 of them in the second half vs our 2 (one of which happened during garbage time in the last few minutes).

But it’s worse than that - there were 2 BACK TO BACK POSSESSIONS that indisputably set the destiny for the rest of the game. Score is 33-31. Mississippi State ball. We play great defensive possession force bad jumper at 17:10 mark. Cliff in terrible position fails to get the rebound and commits a foul. I’m not sure if Miss State gets credited with a rebound there or not (I’m guessing no) - but regardless it’s side out Miss State and foul number 3 for Cliff as a result of not being in position to pull down the board. Miss State scores a lay up on their second chance opportunity. Next Miss State possession -almost the exact same thing. We play solid defense. Miss State misses a 3 and again Cliff is not in position to get the rebound and commits another frustration foul. His 4th - huge dagger right there as there’s over 16 min to play. Hyatt fouls on inbound shot for the icing on the cake. 2 free throws made (count as second chance points in my book).

I don’t see how anyone can reasonably argue that this wasn’t the turning point in the game and attribute it to rebounding woes.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Uh, they rebounded >40% of their own misses. Rebounding was terrible and is a huge reason we lost. But sure it isn’t the only reason.

No one thing is ever the entire reason - but the point I just made about the defensive possessions at the 17:10 and 16:02 marks of the game probably deserves it’s own thread.

Back to back possessions - solid halfcourt D followed by failure to secure the defensive rebound. Massive consequences = -4 point swing, Cliff picks up 4th foul with 16 minutes to play, and we tack on a whopping 3 team fouls in a span of about 70 seconds.

Adding that for a team that likes to press, those 3 early team fouls are extra devastating. Miss State was in the bonus with 11:48 to play. Hard to spark a come back when touch fouls would put them on the line.

 

[BillyC80]

First of all - Your math can’t be right man. We held our own on the glass reasonably well in the first half. They had 6 offensive boards vs our 5. Hence the even score. They somehow got to 13 total offensive rebounds though for the game, right? That means they were credited with grabbing 7 of them in the second half vs our 2 (one of which happened during garbage time in the last few minutes).

But it’s worse than that - there were 2 BACK TO BACK POSSESSIONS that indisputably set the destiny for the rest of the game. Score is 33-31. Mississippi State ball. We play great defensive possession force bad jumper at 17:10 mark. Cliff in terrible position fails to get the rebound and commits a foul. I’m not sure if Miss State gets credited with a rebound there or not (I’m guessing no) - but regardless it’s side out Miss State and foul number 3 for Cliff as a result of not being in position to pull down the board. Miss State scores a lay up on their second chance opportunity. Next Miss State possession -almost the exact same thing. We play solid defense. Miss State misses a 3 and again Cliff is not in position to get the rebound and commits another frustration foul. His 4th - huge dagger right there as there’s over 16 min to play. Hyatt fouls on inbound shot for the icing on the cake. 2 free throws made (count as second chance points in my book).

I don’t see how anyone can reasonably argue that this wasn’t the turning point in the game and attribute it to rebounding woes.

My math is correct unless they counted Cliff’s 3rd and 4th fouls as offensive rebounds for Bell.

This is apparently the case since MSt had 8 ORebs in the first half and finished the game with 11.

MSt had 5 more ORebs but also 4 more turnovers than us, so that’s almost a wash.

As far as turning points, I would argue that it started after Noah’s 3-pt play at 13:25 got us to 39-36:

- Bell gets an And1 to push the lead to 6,
- Woolf misses a chippy, is fouled, and makes 1 FT
- Simpson steals and blows the fast break shot
- MSt miss, we rebound and Gavin misses open 3
- MSt miss, we rebound, Derek misses an open 3
- Noah gets all ball and is called for a 2-shot foul
- MSt up 7, JMike goes down, easy dunk for MSt
- Oskar gets his shot blocked at the rim
- MSt misses a dunk, RU gets long rebound
- Oskar misses a wide open 3
- MSt dunk off a double screen, up 11

In this 3-minute stretch, we got every defensive rebound, got one steal, had no turnovers other than the fluke JMike injury, and missed wide open shots that could have given us the lead.

 

[RUFan8827]

Your Family. Your Religion. Rutgers Basketball.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays all! Looking forward to big things from Pike and the boys in 2024 and beyond

 

[jrm75]

Our lousy shooting is compounded by the lack of offensive rebounding. Our excellent defense is negated by poor defensive rebounding. So, yes, poor rebounding is one of our MAJOR weaknesses and contributors to our losses.

 

[ImBadRU]

We need to get a lot stronger...we get pushed around.

 

[RUJMM78]

I think BillyC’s overall point is RU lost game because we didn't make shots not because of lack of rebounding.

Simpson 3-14
Mag 3-10
Cliff 1-3
JaMike 2-5

3Pt 3-17

That’s the real reason RU got beat.

GO RU

Woeful offense leaves no margin for error.Its very difficult winning games against power conference teams scoring only 60 points.The notion that this would be a better offensive team is a fallacy when the roster has too many role players and a absence of go to scorers.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

My math is correct unless they counted Cliff’s 3rd and 4th fouls as offensive rebounds for Bell.

This is apparently the case since MSt had 8 ORebs in the first half and finished the game with 11.

MSt had 5 more ORebs but also 4 more turnovers than us, so that’s almost a wash.

As far as turning points, I would argue that it started after Noah’s 3-pt play at 13:25 got us to 39-36:

- Bell gets an And1 to push the lead to 6,
- Woolf misses a chippy, is fouled, and makes 1 FT
- Simpson steals and blows the fast break shot
- MSt miss, we rebound and Gavin misses open 3
- MSt miss, we rebound, Derek misses an open 3
- Noah gets all ball and is called for a 2-shot foul
- MSt up 7, JMike goes down, easy dunk for MSt
- Oskar gets his shot blocked at the rim
- MSt misses a dunk, RU gets long rebound
- Oskar misses a wide open 3
- MSt dunk off a double screen, up 11

In this 3-minute stretch, we got every defensive rebound, had no turnovers other than the fluke JMike injury, and took wide open shots that could have given us the lead.

We didn’t grab a single defensive rebound until the 12:20ish mark of the 2nd half. Missed our first 3 opportunities of the half and it cost us dearly on 2 of the 3. That seems pretty bad and arguably the game could have gone differently if that doesn’t happen. Outside of garbage time, that rebound by Noah at the 12:20ish mark might well have been our only defensive rebound in the halfcourt set period. Hyatt and Oskar had rebounds off transition misses and Hyatt rebounded a missed FT. Also - Miss had offensive rebounds at the 9:45 and 8:46 marks that didn’t cost us points but bled clock…

To your point, the Oskar line up with Mag and Cliff both sitting hurt us too. But Oskar likely only checked into the game in the first place because Cliff had 4 fouls (resulting from those missed rebounds at 17:10 and 16:02) and Mag was questionable for the game so his 27 minutes was already probably more than he should’ve played.

 

[bethlehemfan]

It was poor shooting and too many fouls.

- Game was tied at the half

- Second half we had 2 ORebs, they had only 1

- We took more shots from the field

- We had a ton of open looks and missed them

- They took way more FTs

- They outscored us at FT line by 11, won by 10

- Rebound differential was based on all our FG misses and them making almost all their FTs

Poor shooting was definitely a large factor. So was rebounding. Rebounding you can control somewhat. Shooting comes and goes. That’s why people emphasize rebounding. If you are out rebounded like we were every thing else must be really good

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I think BillyC’s overall point is RU lost game because we didn't make shots not because of lack of rebounding.

Simpson 3-14
Mag 3-10
Cliff 1-3
JaMike 2-5

3Pt 3-17

That’s the real reason RU got beat.

GO RU

Yes but the counter point is that despite poor shooting, we could’ve won this game if we just rebounded better in the second half.

We gave up 4 direct points because we missed those first 2 defensive rebound attempts of the second half, and picked up 3 fouls which later led to them being in the bonus very early. With us trailing and having to press to try to turn them over (which worked at times), it also put them on the line where they scored more points.

And we lost Cliff as a help defender (despite having a bad game he was still the best we’ve got) 4 min into the second half with 4 fouls. We lost by 10.

Also - none of this takes into account the emotional drain that getting tattooed on the glass slowly has over the course of the game on other areas of play such as offense.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

BillyC is just stating facts. If he is right we didnt lose the 2nd half because of DREB. In fact if his facts are rught we acrually dreb pretty good in 2nd half.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

BillyC is just stating facts. If he is right we didnt lose the 2nd half because of DREB. In fact if his facts are rught we acrually dreb pretty good in 2nd half.

Yep we protected that glass well in garbage time all right. We grabbed 3

Well we protected the glass damn well in garbage time as it turns out. Grabbed all 3 defensive rebound opportunities. Yippee.

The rest of the half? Um - no. Dreadful. They had 5 offensive boards. I think we had 4 defensive rebounds included one from a FT. That’s pretty terrible no?

 

[Mr Magoo]

There are several reasons why we lost. However, if we are going to narrow it down to only one;

Cliff 3 pts, 0 rebounds, 5 fouls
Bell 17 pts, 18 rebounds, 2 fouls

One of these players I believe is only starting due to an injury to MSU’s best player.

The other is a pre-season all B1G player.

If Cliff even played him even, we win easily.

 

[mugrat86]

Guys, please re-read my OP. We lost the game in the second half yet in that half we got EVERY defensive rebound except one, and we actually had 2 Offensive rebounds of our own in that half.

I rewatched the second half, expecting to see a lot of second chance points for MS State, but they literally had ZERO second chance points in that half. On their one and only offensive rebound in that half, they missed the second shot.

In general, yes we can improve our rebounding, but against MS State that is not the reason for our loss.

Too many easy baskets for them in paint

 

[RutgersClassof2004]

There are several reasons why we lost. However, if we are going to narrow it down to only one;

Cliff 3 pts, 0 rebounds, 5 fouls
Bell 17 pts, 18 rebounds, 2 fouls

One of these players I believe is only starting due to an injury to MSU’s best player.

The other is a pre-season all B1G player.

If Cliff even played him even, we win easily.

Yes. Really not even a question. While Derek is struggling, this is by far the biggest reason we are not an NCAA Tournament team as of today.

 

[essexknight]

RU lost due to multiple reasons. Poor shooting is one. Lackluster rebounding is another.

Rebounding is being talked about a lot because it has been a constant problem this season. Rebounding also comes down to size, effort, and intensity. Shooting is a skill that either you have or you don‘t. It’s hard to develop as a shooter during the season.

Also with regard to rebounding, find me the teams (college or nba) who were outrebounded by 20+ and still won games. It may happen, but it’s probably exceedingly rare.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Well we protected the glass damn well in garbage time as it turns out. Grabbed all 3 defensive rebound opportunities. Yippee.

The rest of the half? Um - no. Dreadful. They had 5 offensive boards. I think we had 4 defensive rebounds included one from a FT. That’s pretty terrible no?

Did BillyC provide us with disinformation?

Uh oh!

Valuable life lesson, dont trust what you read on the internet.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Chineese food taking 30 minutes for pick up……looked at play by play box score and in fact MSU had 5 2nd half off rebound.

BillyC you are a bad actor. No desert tonight!

 

[BillyC80]

Chineese food taking 30 minutes for pick up……looked at play by play box score and in fact MSU had 5 2nd half off rebound.

BillyC you are a bad actor. No desert tonight!

Watch the second half with your own eyes, and tell us how you would have counted the ORebs for MSt.

If getting fouled while fighting for position on a missed shot counts as an offensive rebound, then I was off by two. Even with that it would only be 3 ORebs, not 5.

Just before the start of the second half, the announcers said MSt had 8 ORebs in the first half. The boxscore on the Rutgers site shows they had 11 for the game, so that would substantiate the 3 in the second half.

Lastly, my original point was that we did not lose due to rebounding. Poor shooting and too much fouling were the main culprits, and I stand by that.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

this game was lost in the first half ….when both teams came out hot in the first minutes …and then the game settled down into a “Rutgers rock fight”

We pushed the lead to 20-15…and had a couple of opportunities to push the lead up to close to double digits ….and didn’t finish sone situations

The game stayed at 20-15 for over 2 1/2 minutes ….we blew a chance to move it up and take control . I think cliff got his second shortly after this spurt

And then miss state took control with a 10-0 lead to make it 25-20.

It was the same script as the Princeton game where in the first half we started to get to some momentum and and didn’t take control of the game …and let Princeton get its feet under them

 

[BillyC80]

Poor shooting was definitely a large factor. So was rebounding. Rebounding you can control somewhat. Shooting comes and goes. That’s why people emphasize rebounding. If you are out rebounded like we were every thing else must be really good

Most level-headed post in this thread. I agree with this but with one very big caveat: Missed shots are the driver of rebounds, and shooting well can help negate an opponent’s rebounding advantage.

MSt is #22 nationally in rebounds per game, so it’s no secret that the way to negate that advantage is to get turnovers, which we did, and make shots, which we did not do.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Watch the second half with your own eyes, and tell us how you would have counted the ORebs for MSt.

If getting fouled while fighting for position on a missed shot counts as an offensive rebound, then I was off by two. Even with that it would only be 3 ORebs, not 5.

Just before the start of the second half, the announcers said MSt had 8 ORebs in the first half. The boxscore on the Rutgers site shows they had 11 for the game, so that would substantiate the 3 in the second half.

Lastly, my original point was that we did not lose due to rebounding. Poor shooting and too much fouling were the main culprits, and I stand by that.

Box score shows 5 oreb.

Bottom line. We lost because of a host of reasons

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Box score shows 5 oreb.

Bottom line. We lost because of a host of reasons

It was 5 - all in the first 15 minutes of the second half.

The bottom line is we had 19 total defensive rebounds and two of them were off free throws and 3 in those final 5 minutes I’m considered garbage time (outcome already decided). So during meaningful play, we grabbed 14 defensive rebounds off of live defense and let them grab 13 offensive boards. That’s horrible to begin with, but when you realize that a good bunch of our rebounds were off of transition misses - you realize that the stats don’t even do justice to how dreadful our halfcourt set defensive rebounding truly is.