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Rotation

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Degaz-RU

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Side note from Illinois/MSU game, related to some Pike criticism on this board:

Did you notice how Illinois shrunk their rotation to basically 6-1/2 guys? Only two guys played off the bench, and one of them only played 5 minutes.

Almost the same with MSU - they played four guys off the bench, but they played 22, 16, 7, and 1 minutes, so basically a 7-1/2 man rotation.

Good teams play their best guys when it counts, not 10 guys with 10+ minutes. Our rotation should be:

G - Austin Williams
G - JMike or Simpson
F - Hyatt
F - Mag
C - Cliff

G - Simpson or JMike
C - Wolf just to back up Cliff for 8-10 minutes

G - Noah for a few minutes each half
F - Gavin for a few minutes each half, and if he hits a shot or two, ride him, if not, sit him
F - Oskar for a few minutes each half

This is the Izzo approach, where seven guys get a bulk of the minutes, and other guys get a few minutes.
 
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Degaz-RU said:
Side note from Illinois/MSU game, related to some Pike criticism on this board:

Did you notice how Illinois shrunk their rotation to basically 6-1/2 guys? Only two guys played off the bench, and one of them only played 5 minutes.

Almost the same with MSU - they played four guys off the bench, but they played 22, 16, 7, and 1 minutes, so basically a 7-1/2 man rotation.

Good teams play their best guys when it counts, not 10 guys with 10+ minutes. Our rotation should be:

G - Austin Williams
G - JMike or Simpson
F - Hyatt
F - Mag
C - Cliff

G - Simpson or JMike
C - Wolf just to back up Cliff for 8-10 minutes

G - Noah for a few minutes each half
F - Gavin for a few minutes each half, and if he hits a shot or two, ride him, if not, sit him
F - Oskar for a few minutes each half

This is the Izzo approach, where seven guys get a bulk of the minutes, and other guys get a few minutes.
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The rotation against Indiana is actually not that far off from what you laid out.

Mag, Hyatt and Cliff all played 30 or more. Simpson played 26. Williams played 24, and probably would have played more if not for picking up two fouls in a span of about 20 seconds with a few minutes to go in the first half.

JMike played 21, Wolf played 9.

Fernandes and Oskar played 9. Gavin played 5.
 
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IL was and will be without Shannon now, so that’s a big reason for playing only 6 guys. MSU plays Walker and Hoggard over 30 minutes each, then spreads it around pretty well among the other 5 or 6 guys.

But your point is well taken. Playing Gavin and Oskar, and to a lesser degree Noah, seems almost futile right now, but I understand Pike has to see if they can give us anything before deciding to sit them for good.
 
Noah is a regular rotation guy. As much of a disappointment as he’s been relative to the guys we’ve lost, we still need him in there with Simpson to close out games because our other guards can’t make free throws other than Simpson.

Nobody plays 40 so Hyatt and Mag have to sub out too. I think what happens is Oskar and GG kind of get phased out and outside of maybe starting the game with Austin, Hyatt and Mag for the first rotation - those 3 guys rotate the 3-4 spot the rest of the game and take turns taking a breather.

Davis, Simpson and Noah rotate at the 1-2. PT based on who is having the best day.
 
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PSAL_Hoops said:
Noah is a regular rotation guy. As much of a disappointment as he’s been relative to the guys we’ve lost, we still need him in there with Simpson to close out games because our other guards can’t make free throws other than Simpson.

Nobody plays 40 so Hyatt and Mag have to sub out too. I think what happens is Oskar and GG kind of get phased out and outside of maybe starting the game with Austin, Hyatt and Mag for the first rotation - those 3 guys rotate the 3-4 spot the rest of the game and take turns taking a breather.

Davis, Simpson and Noah rotate at the 1-2. PT based on who is having the best day.
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Noah has no business on the court unless you’re protecting a 3 or more possession lead and the opponent has to foul
 
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zappaa said:
Noah has no business on the court unless you’re protecting a 3 or more possession lead and the opponent has to foul
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Because he just had a bad game? He was the best guard we had vs Seton Hall and Miss State. He’s averaging more minutes than Simpson and Davis to date for a reason. He’s not suddenly just “out of the rotation”. And no, I’m not a huge fan of him or anything. This is just common sense. He’s averaging 26 minutes and will not end the year averaging under 23 unless we totally tank and Pike just decides to play youth. Even then, with NIL, we probably won’t do that.
 
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zappaa said:
Noah has no business on the court unless you’re protecting a 3 or more possession lead and the opponent has to foul
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Lets be real honest here. None of the 3 guards has outplayed each other. Simpson was REAL bad vs indiana. Davis panicked end game vs indiana. Fernandes was a big factor in our biggest win of the season so far.
 
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PSAL_Hoops said:
Because he just had a bad game? He was the best guard we had vs Seton Hall and Miss State. He’s averaging more minutes than Simpson and Davis to date for a reason. He’s not suddenly just “out of the rotation”. And no, I’m not a huge fan of him or anything. This is just common sense. He’s averaging 26 minutes and will not end the year averaging under 23 unless we totally tank and Pike just decides to play youth. Even then, with NIL, we probably won’t do that.
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He should be out of the rotation.
I wouldn’t even waste time taking practice time away from the other guards.
Just my opinion.
 
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Greene Rice FIG said:
Lets be real honest here. None of the 3 guards has outplayed each other. Simpson was REAL bad vs indiana. Davis panicked end game vs indiana. Fernandes was a big factor in our biggest win of the season so far.
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Until we’re “out of it” in terms of any post season, MOV matters too. The Miss State final also would’ve been completely lopsided without Noah. He’s had as many “good games” as the other guards. Not seeing any with a big lead except for Austin because he’s more versatile and can slide 1-4.
 
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PSAL_Hoops said:
It would be shocking if all of the other guards are on the team next year. You don’t play for the future anymore with NIL.
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I only care about the next game and the preparation for the next game…. Next year doesn’t enter the equation.
Noah isn’t helping us beat MSU imo, I’m not getting ready for MSU hoping Noah’s hot.
 
zappaa said:
I only care about the next game and the preparation for the next game…. Next year doesn’t enter the equation.
Noah isn’t helping us beat MSU imo, I’m not getting ready for MSU hoping Noah’s hot.
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I think your overreacting to 2 back to back bad games. Wasn’t good from 3 but he also dropped 17 points on OSU on 7-13 shooting.
 
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I wouldnt be that harsh of Noah. He has come up big in a few games to give us some scoring. You give some of these kids run to see who has a hot hand in some cases.

That said I agree about imiting rotations and PLESE STOP with the wholesale lineup changes having Woolf, Palm, and a misfit cast out there together. It hurts our momentum and ability to do anything.

Pike is just clockwork with his subs and its baffling to me. I get they have sensors on kids to know when their energy is low and thats one thing but you DO NOT have to sub Cliff out every single time around the 15mins mark. Find a sub here or there and plug them in so we keep consistency out there
 
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As much as this all makes sense from a consistency standpoint, it is the wrong path to take in the short term and long term.

RU has always been a recruit and develop program, although next year kinda turns the corner on that aspect.

We are only in this position now and last year because we went heavy into 4th and 5th year seniors or players that had already been developed. There is some truth to "get old and stay old" from a win today mindset.

But RU still has to develop the Mawot Mag type of player......or the JaMicheal Davis.....or the Derek Simpson......or the Gavin Griffiths kids on the roster.

The more consistent and winning programs, stay out the portal year in and year out.....sure, a team can pick up one starter here or there, but this notion that you can plug and play veteran players from other systems, other programs and expect immediate results, is going to hurt your program in the short term AND long term.

The short term is a shorter rotation, makes players worse, not better. Your starters get worn down and your bench becomes more likely to make mistakes, when entering games.

The long term is a shorter rotation, creates a loss of confidence in players to make mistakes and get better. It makes players try to "do too much" in their limited minutes, instead of allowing the game to just flow and allow shot attempts to happen within the flow of offense.

There is an argument that players who wind up playing a good amount of minutes, could wind up transferring, just as much as kids who aren't playing that much.

But we only have Mawot Mag, Cliff and Hyatt as reliable players on offense or defense, because of how many mistakes and errors they have made over the last 2 to 4 years.

I think Davis, Simpson and a lesser extent Woolfolk, are learning and failing, in real time. I am not sure shorter rotations make sense for this RU roster, when it's not 100% clear that there's a dramatic difference between the 3rd or 4th best player and the 7th or 8th best player.
 
PSAL_Hoops said:
Because he just had a bad game? He was the best guard we had vs Seton Hall and Miss State. He’s averaging more minutes than Simpson and Davis to date for a reason. He’s not suddenly just “out of the rotation”. And no, I’m not a huge fan of him or anything. This is just common sense. He’s averaging 26 minutes and will not end the year averaging under 23 unless we totally tank and Pike just decides to play youth. Even then, with NIL, we probably won’t do that.
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He just went out of the rotation and the team looked significantly more aggressive. He is coming off the bench moving forward and it is up to Fernandes if he wants to earn.
his minuets back.

He has been abysmal this year. Completely non factor in 90% of games.
 
ScarletR30 said:
He just went out of the rotation and the team looked significantly more aggressive. He is coming off the bench moving forward and it is up to Fernandes if he wants to earn.
his minuets back.

He has been abysmal this year. Completely non factor in 90% of games.
Click to expand...

Exaggerate much? Before our last 2 games he scored in double digits in 5 of the other 7 real games we’ve played this season (Princeton and the major conference opponents). 9 points in the other game. Overall average of 9.2 ppg in real games.

By way of comparison, Simpson and Davis have each scored double digits in only 3 of our 9 real games. Austin Williams has looked great in the last two games. Very encouraging but he played in 5 of the other games against “real” teams and didn’t hit double digits in any of them.

I’m not saying scoring is the only metric (it’s not), but Noah isn’t GG in terms of lack of experience. His defense isn’t materially worse than the other guards. He’s arguably the best ball handler among them as well as the best FT shooter. His assist numbers are disappointing thus far but it’s not like anyone else is taking him to the woodshed there either. To say he hasn’t produced at all relative to our alternatives is just inaccurate.
 
Fernandes had great games against, OSU & SHU.

Other players have bad games and 🦗🦗🦗.

Fair or fickle fans?
 
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G- RUnit said:
Fernandes had great games against, OSU & SHU.

Other players have bad games and 🦗🦗🦗.

Fair or fickle fans?
Click to expand...
Fair or fickle doesn’t enter the equation for me.
When both Noah and Simpson or any other guard out there are having horrible offensive games, I believe they do more to help us than Noah
 
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zappaa said:
Fair or fickle doesn’t enter the equation for me.
When both Noah and Simpson or any other guard out there are having horrible offensive games, I believe they do more to help us than Noah
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Agreed! That’s why don’t think can limit the rotation.
But that also begs the question when other guards aren’t playing well shouldn’t they be pulled or subject to same scrutiny.
Hard to ignore Fernandes’ very good games against SHU and OSU.
Personally of the guards, the only I would trust shooting foul shots end game, like Indiana, would be Simpson, and then Fernandes.
For that reason alone you would want Fernandes with some PT if we are still trying to win games.
 
PSAL_Hoops said:
Because he just had a bad game? He was the best guard we had vs Seton Hall and Miss State. He’s averaging more minutes than Simpson and Davis to date for a reason. He’s not suddenly just “out of the rotation”. And no, I’m not a huge fan of him or anything. This is just common sense. He’s averaging 26 minutes and will not end the year averaging under 23 unless we totally tank and Pike just decides to play youth. Even then, with NIL, we probably won’t do that.
Click to expand...
Another kneejerk reaction by our fanbase. Bench Cliff. Bench Hyatt. Bench Derek. Bench them all I say!
 
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G- RUnit said:
Agreed! That’s why don’t think can limit the rotation.
But that also begs the question when other guards aren’t playing well shouldn’t they be pulled or subject to same scrutiny.
Hard to ignore Fernandes’ very good games against SHU and OSU.
Personally of the guards, the only I would trust shooting foul shots end game, like Indiana, would be Simpson, and then Fernandes.
For that reason alone you would want Fernandes with some PT if we are still trying to win games.
Click to expand...
I already said if we’re up several scores he should play during foul time.
 
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To the OP I agree with this concept but we suffer from a lot of uneven performances. Williams is our best guard right now. Derek was before that and Davis before that. Noah has been very hot and cold but not looking to force shots either. Right now his minutes are being cut but don’t count him out just yet.

Up front I think we know what we’ve got with Gavin being the wild card. If he breaks out and plays good D / rebounds he will get more minutes.
 
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Not you Zap. It’s collective and as you say who cares what any of us think. I was joking because everyone but Mag and Gavin have been asked to sit down by someone or another on this board. Probably Gavin too but less than Hyatt that I have seen which is crazy.

The guys I like right now are the ones getting the minutes because they are scrapping. Noah was very scrappy a couple of weeks ago but seems in a funk. It will probably pass IMO. But what do I know?
 
Yeah Baby said:
Not you Zap. It’s collective and as you say who cares what any of us think. I was joking because everyone but Mag and Gavin have been asked to sit down by someone or another on this board. Probably Gavin too but less than Hyatt that I have seen which is crazy.

The guys I like right now are the ones getting the minutes because they are scrapping. Noah was very scrappy a couple of weeks ago but seems in a funk. It will probably pass IMO. But what do I know?
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I have an issue with a player who contributes nothing at either end of the floor unless they’re making shots.
There were games when Caleb was the star of the game scoring 5 points.
 
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zappaa said:
I have an issue with a player who contributes nothing at either end of the floor unless they’re making shots.
There were games was Caleb was the star of the game scoring 5 points.
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Cliff with 2 huge blocks in the last few minutes against Indiana. His hands were very active too. I wouldn’t say he was the star but he was a huge reason we won. That’s what Caleb gave us and I too look for that from the guys who aren’t scoring.

Noah was doing that for a lot of games. Go back and watch. He’s in a funk and Offense is his strength but if he scraps I’m happy.
 
Degaz-RU said:
Certainly agree re: performance. For instance, if JMike is having a bad freshman night, you definitely bring Noah in to mix things up.
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Early bad nights can't become good nights from the bench. Let JD play through it. He's always going to give you better defense. He's also taller and faster than Noah. Noah is our fourth best guard. He should barely play.
 
Yeah Baby said:
Cliff with 2 huge blocks in the last few minutes against Indiana. His hands were very active too. I wouldn’t say he was the star but he was a huge reason we won. That’s what Caleb gave us and I too look for that from the guys who aren’t scoring.

Noah was doing that for a lot of games. Go back and watch. He’s in a funk and Offense is his strength but if he scraps I’m happy.
Click to expand...
Same with Simpson, shot at the half and the free throws to clinch. While others are praised for their leadership skills, improvement or running the point, Simpson is ripped. Heaven forbid if you take the time to compare the players praised.
Carino was right.
 
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G- RUnit said:
Same with Simpson, shot at the half and the free throws to clinch. While others are praised for their leadership skills, improvement or running the point, Simpson is ripped. Heaven bid if you compare the players praised.
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Certain fans pick players to hate and never change their mind even after the team wins. I alluded to the Football board yesterday where one guy gets blamed for every loss and did nothing to help the team win 7 games. It’s a joke.

Last year some idiots started the Hyatt vs Mag argument which is moronic because they are so dissimilar. Now those guys still cannot say anything good about Hyatt who has been very good all year. I like them both and we need them both.

Last year at the end it was all about benching Paul for Derek. Now it’s bench Derek or whoever for J Mike. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

Minutes are earned and I root for all of them to play well. More players playing well equals more wins. It ain’t rocket surgery.
 
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zappaa said:
Fair or fickle doesn’t enter the equation for me.
When both Noah and Simpson or any other guard out there are having horrible offensive games, I believe they do more to help us than Noah
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This. If Noah isn't scoring then he should be on the bench unless he can start impacting the game in other ways
 
I feel Cliff, Hyatt, Mag and Austin should be on the court as much as they can be if your goal is to make the NIT. The season is about half over. Lose quite a few more and it won’t matter. Play your youth. For now though Cliff is still a good rim protector. All four can play D. Hyatt and Mag are capable of filling it up. Austin is the long guard we need to defend in the B1G
 
Yeah Baby said:
Certain fans pick players to hate and never change their mind even after the team wins. I alluded to the Football board yesterday where one guy gets blamed for every loss and did nothing to help the team win 7 games. It’s a joke.

Last year some idiots started the Hyatt vs Mag argument which is moronic because they are so dissimilar. Now those guys still cannot say anything good about Hyatt who has been very good all year. I like them both and we need them both.

Last year at the end it was all about benching Paul for Derek. Now it’s bench Derek or whoever for J Mike. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

Minutes are earned and I root for all of them to play well. More players playing well equals more wins. It ain’t rocket surgery.
Click to expand...
Not true. I was clearly on the Mag side of that debate, but I've said plenty of good things about Hyatt this season. Others have too
 
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