Wimsatt will be our Starting Quarterback next year

[rutgersal]

Here’s the thing - nobody knows for sure how our option Bs would have done with the 2023 OL because outside of one TD drive against Wisconsin nobody else got any chances outside of Gavin. I’m willing to assume your right about 2023 that Gavin was the best we had - I knew Gavin would play through think and thin and accepted that - for THIS season.

But looking ahead - I can’t buy that we should be happy going all in on Gavin, based on what you keep referencing as our poor prior luck in the portal. You cannot convince me that the 2023 version of Gavin was a better option than the 2021 version of Noah Vedral would be going into next season. At least not on the basis of production to date (and Im not willing to double down on potential at this point).

Noah was very reliable at not turning it over - threw 7 picks on that whole 2021 season - and 5 of them were in two games where we had no chance anyway as we were completely outmatched in the trenches. He may not have a strong arm but he completed over 59% of his passes. You’ll try to convince us that Gavin’s legs give us some big edge but the narrative there is pretty weak too. Noah ran for 297 yards on 102 attempts. Gavin’s at 488 on 120 attempts to date. If you assume Noah would run his 2.9 average on the extra 20 rushes that’d put him at 355. Now take into account the negative yardage on sacks that Noah took because of how dreadfully outmatched our OL was that year after Sutton went down. And Gavin picked up 87 of his yards on one defensive breakdown by Indiana. The point is his legs don’t provide a massive advantage over Noah either. The only thing he offers is “potential” with respect to arm strength.

Why bring up Noah, you wonder? I’m operating under the assumption he’s the proxy for what we could reasonably expect to land in the portal.

Did Noah ever make any big plays like Gavin did with his legs? No! Gavin’s superior athleticism caused the defensive breakdown. Our experience with Noah proved you can’t dink and dunk your way to success in the Big Ten. Teams did not respect Noah’s long ball. While Gavin had a superior line. Noah’s wide receiving Corp and running back Corp had more talent and was deeper.

Noah is not what we need. What we need is already on the roster in Ajani and AJ. All they need is experience. I think it’s a waste of time to get a portal QB.

 

[ScarletDog]

Because we have offers out to other position groups, yet No Quarterbacks. We’ll see.

Is every single discussion with a portal player public? I don't know the answer, but I would bet no. Rutgers must go to the portal and add a reasonably decent qb to the room. To not would be borderline criminal.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Did Noah ever make any big plays like Gavin did with his legs? No! Gavin’s superior athleticism caused the defensive breakdown. Our experience with Noah proved you can’t dink and dunk your way to success in the Big Ten. Teams did not respect Noah’s long ball. While Gavin had a superior line. Noah’s wide receiving Corp and running back Corp had more talent and was deeper.

Noah is not what we need. What we need is already on the roster in Ajani and AJ. All they need is experience. I think it’s a waste of time to get a portal QB.

Al - the numbers simply tell a different story. Wimsatt had ONE 87 yard rush. He had a couple other nice (shorter) runs but so did Noah. Hence the comparison of their overall rush stats when you normalize the number of attempts.

And no, Gavin was not sacked less than Noah because he’s a better scrambler. Our pass protection was much much better in 2023 than 2021. The data clearly shows this if you compare the number of times the line broke down. Vedral never had all day to make a throw except against Wagner. Protection was solid this year in many games this season. It’s vastly improved.

 

[rutgersal]

Is every single discussion with a portal player public? I don't know the answer, but I would bet no. Rutgers must go to the portal and add a reasonably decent qb to the room. To not would be borderline criminal.

Usually, a player will post on Twitter, “ I have an offer from team x”. I would rather see Ajani or AJ get reps, rather than some schlub from the portal. But they could add a body, I suppose.

 

[rutgersal]

Al - the numbers simply tell a different story. Wimsatt had ONE 87 yard rush. He had a couple other nice (shorter) runs but so did Noah. Hence the comparison of their overall rush stats when you normalize the number of attempts.

And no, Gavin was not sacked less than Noah because he’s a better scrambler. Our pass protection was much much better in 2023 than 2021. The data clearly shows this if you compare the number of times the line broke down. Vedral never had all day to make a throw except against Wagner. Protection was solid this year in many games this season. It’s vastly improved.

Vedral didn’t have all day to make a throw, but he was throwing to better receivers. The differential in sacks was eight, and the yards lost was not materially different. 86 yards for wimsatt and 122 yards for the Vedral. If you remove the impact of sacks, you have to do so on both sides, you can’t just do it on one side. You do so by adding 86 yards to Wimsatt’s total and 122 yards to Vedrals total, and Wimsatt still has a significantly higher average. 4.7 ypc vs 3.9 ypc. Wimsatt is better by .8 ypc.

Furthermore, Wimsatt had a ton of nice runs:

• 17 Yard run vs Temple
• 34 Yard run vs VT
• 15 yard run vs Michigan
• 21 yard run vs Wisconsin
• 29 yard run vs MSU
• 17 yard run vs OSU
• 22 yard run vs PSU
• 25 yard run vs Maryland

Only Northwestern and Iowa did Wimsatt not have a big run. Wimsatt is more explosive than Vedral

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Vedral didn’t have all day to make a throw, but he was throwing to better receivers. The differential in sacks was eight, and the yards lost was not materially different. 86 yards for wimsatt and 122 yards for the Vedral. If you remove the impact of sacks, you have to do so on both sides, you can’t just do it on one side. You do so by adding 86 yards to Wimsatt’s total and 122 yards to Vedrals total, and Wimsatt still has a significantly higher average. 4.7 ypc vs 3.9 ypc. Wimsatt is better by .8 ypc.

Furthermore, Wimsatt had a ton of nice runs:

• 17 Yard run vs Temple
• 34 Yard run vs VT
• 15 yard run vs Michigan
• 21 yard run vs Wisconsin
• 29 yard run vs MSU
• 17 yard run vs OSU
• 22 yard run vs PSU
• 25 yard run vs Maryland

Only Northwestern and Iowa did Wimsatt not have a big run. Wimsatt is more explosive than Vedral

I already did most of the math. It was 488 to 297. But then I normalized it based on Gavin’s 20 extra attempts (at 2.9 yards per carry) - giving Noah 58 more rush yards puts him at 355. So Gavin would’ve rushed for 133 more total yards than him on the same number of attempts. We can take your word for it on the sack yardage differential being 36 yards and adjust that down to a net 97 yard difference on the season. You can point to Gavin’s rushing impact all you want, but regardless - the point I’m making is that Noah racked up some yards on the ground too. The numbers come within 10 yards of the point I was making, Al - that the rushing difference between the 2 of them quite literally was the 87 yard rush in the Indiana game (plus 10 yards).

No matter how hard you try, having better receivers did not have much of an impact on Vedral’s numbers. He and Gavin are polar opposites. He threw short, safe passes that our current players would catch too. You could argue that guys like Bo picked up some extra post catch yards that Dremel may not have gotten, but our RB corps would’ve likely made up the difference and then some on screen passes with a QB that could complete the bunnies.

Circling back to the original point - a) there’s no reason to think we could not get someone comparable to Vedral to compete for the starting spot next year. He certainly was no star and not a candidate for big NIL money. b) you sound ridiculous trying to make a case that Gavin (who finished last amongst all FBS QBs in ratings) would far and away be a better choice to lead the team next year than a non-flashy game manager who won’t wow anyone with big throws down field but isn’t a complete statue with his legs and will be close to automatic with time in the short / medium game on the easy ones.

Bottomline - I’m happy with the job Greg has done to date - but what your doing in preemptively defending a possible decision to double down on Gavin and bring in nobody is wrong.

 

[ScarletDog]

Usually, a player will post on Twitter, “ I have an offer from team x”. I would rather see Ajani or AJ get reps, rather than some schlub from the portal. But they could add a body, I supp

Geez Al. It's obviously not about getting a schulb or about getting reps. This is about upgrading our QB play and you know it. We need one of 3 things to happen next year to be an improved team: 1) Gavin gets a lot better...it's been discussed ad nauseum about inaccuracy, inability to read, small playbook, and on and on. 2) AJ or Ajani prove to be ready to take over and enable a better offense. or 3) we put whatever QB we get from the portal in and let AJ and Ajani use the year to further develop. I don't see #1 happening, but I hope I'm wrong. We need a stronger QB room. If coach actually does feel that Gavin was our overwhelmingly best chance to win this season (as evidenced by the fact that nobody got any minutes behind him, regardless of the situations), then the room needs a massive upgrade. So we don't need a schlub and we don't need to give some charity minutes to a combination of AJ, Ajani, and said schlub. Rather, we need to upgrade the position immediately and the portal guy needs to be better than Gavin...which should not be too hard to find. Deep down you know this but for some reason you want to argue it to the point of falling on your sword. We all want a better product on the field and we all know the QB spot is one of the most glaring weaknesses we have. Let's hope coach takes action so we have legitimate options to have a more competitive team "just in case" Gavin doesn't develop accuracy, touch, ability to read defense pre-snap, ability to go through progressions in live action, and on and on. This way, if Gavin does all this and becomes a competent qb we're in great shape with strong backups and we have competition to make everyone better.

 

[greenknight]

Huh???? Rushed for 48.8% of yds because it was less than 50/50 he was going to complete a forward pass. If he cant throw he'd better be able to run or he'd switching to TE just like Lewis & Johnny Football before him

 

[rutgersal]

Huh???? Rushed for 48.8% of yds because it was less than 50/50 he was going to complete a forward pass. If he cant throw he'd better be able to run or he'd switching to TE just like Lewis & Johnny Football before him

he ran, and was very good at it, which was a big reason we’re going bowling.

 

[rurichdog]

Wimsatt doesn’t need to carry McMahon’s jockstrap. He won 6 games, rushed for 100+ yards, and is going bowling, something Mike never did.

If Gavin Wimsatt ever starts a Thanksgiving Day NFL game I'll eat my RU fleece.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Huh???? Rushed for 48.8% of yds because it was less than 50/50 he was going to complete a forward pass. If he cant throw he'd better be able to run or he'd switching to TE just like Lewis & Johnny Football before him

This completely which is why it wouldn’t take much at all to significantly upgrade the QB room instantly with a veteran transfer (basically anyone who has proven they can be servicable with decent pass protection).

Gio Rescigno was NOT a good QB. I think we could do significantly better than a guy like him, for instance, in the portal. But even Rescigno (also a run first QB), was more accurate with his arm than Gavin with far worse pass protection. In the only year he was called on for meaningful starter minutes (2016), Gio completed 53% of his throws through the last 6 games (all BIG opponents). He threw for over 200 yards in 3 of 6 of those games (something Gavin hasn’t been able to do even once). He had 86 completions through only 6 games (and none against Wagner or Temple types). Think about that. And again, Rescigno - not a good QB at all. The comparative just shows how poor Gavin has been in the air.

Al will continue to argue that Gavin is this elite runner that compensates for not being able to throw, but it’s just not true. One or two nice rushes a game does not make up for his massive shortcomings in the pass game. It’s a big deal not being able to complete bunnies and an even bigger problem not being able to execute reads. It’s massively limiting that he can only make throws that are predetermined before the snap.

 

[rutgersal]

I already did most of the math. It was 488 to 297. But then I normalized it based on Gavin’s 20 extra attempts (at 2.9 yards per carry) - giving Noah 58 more rush yards puts him at 355. So Gavin would’ve rushed for 133 more total yards than him on the same number of attempts. We can take your word for it on the sack yardage differential being 36 yards and adjust that down to a net 97 yard difference on the season. You can point to Gavin’s rushing impact all you want, but regardless - the point I’m making is that Noah racked up some yards on the ground too. The numbers come within 10 yards of the point I was making, Al - that the rushing difference between the 2 of them quite literally was the 87 yard rush in the Indiana game (plus 10 yards).

No matter how hard you try, having better receivers did not have much of an impact on Vedral’s numbers. He and Gavin are polar opposites. He threw short, safe passes that our current players would catch too. You could argue that guys like Bo picked up some extra post catch yards that Dremel may not have gotten, but our RB corps would’ve likely made up the difference and then some on screen passes with a QB that could complete the bunnies.

Circling back to the original point - a) there’s no reason to think we could not get someone comparable to Vedral to compete for the starting spot next year. He certainly was no star and not a candidate for big NIL money. b) you sound ridiculous trying to make a case that Gavin (who finished last amongst all FBS QBs in ratings) would far and away be a better choice to lead the team next year than a non-flashy game manager who won’t wow anyone with big throws down field but isn’t a complete statue with his legs and will be close to automatic with time in the short / medium game on the easy ones.

Bottomline - I’m happy with the job Greg has done to date - but what your doing in preemptively defending a possible decision to double down on Gavin and bring in nobody is wrong.

133 yards is 13 First Downs, not an insignificant amount you seem to be portraying it to be. A sack adjusted 97 yard difference is 9 first downs, close to 10.

His 4.0 non sack adjusted average is 38% higher than Noah’s 2.9, also not insignificant.

So, the facts show that Gavin was far more effective a rusher than Noah. Yes, his passing isn’t where we’d like it to be, but his rushing prowess ensures we will beat everyone we’re supposed to beat.

What you fail to remember is that though Noah threw for a higher percentage, there were very few explosive plays, because the defense did not have to respect the long ball. The balls he threw took a while to get to the receiver, allowing time for the defenses to adjust. So Noah’s dinking and dunking was ineffective vs the Michigans, OSUs, and PSUs for the most part, because those defenses are fast and tackle well.

Gavin had a lot of explosive plays, such as Dremels 80 yard TD reception vs Michigan.

The bottomline is, we’re not replacing a quarterback that took us to 6 wins and bowling. That’s the way it looks to me. There’s a big reason Gavin is The Rutgers face on all pinstripe bowl promotional materials. He is the face of the program.

Gavin improved his completion percentage by roughly 3 percentage points from last year. He will work to show continued improvement, and he should be able to improve his completion percentage to over 50%, next year, given his improvement this year. That’s good enough and will allow us to bide time while we wait for the freshman receivers to acclimate, and hopefully go to another bowl next year.

 

[yesrutgers01]

133 yards is 13 First Downs, not an insignificant amount you seem to be portraying it to be. A sack adjusted 97 yard difference is 9 first downs, close to 10.

His 4.0 non sack adjusted average is 38% higher than Noah’s 2.9, also not insignificant.

So, the facts show that Gavin was far more effective a rusher than Noah. Yes, his passing isn’t where we’d like it to be, but his rushing prowess ensures we will beat everyone we’re supposed to beat.

What you fail to remember is that though Noah threw for a higher percentage, there were very few explosive plays, because the defense did not have to respect the long ball. The balls he threw took a while to get to the receiver, allowing time for the defenses to adjust. So Noah’s dinking and dunking was ineffective vs the Michigans, OSUs, and PSUs for the most part, because those defenses are fast and tackle well.

Gavin had a lot of explosive plays, such as Dremels 80 yard TD reception vs Michigan.

The bottomline is, we’re not replacing a quarterback that took us to 6 wins and bowling. That’s the way it looks to me. There’s a big reason Gavin is The Rutgers face on all pinstripe bowl promotional materials. He is the face of the program.

Gavin improved his completion percentage by roughly 3 percentage points from last year. He will work to show continued improvement, and he should be able to improve his completion percentage to over 50%, next year, given his improvement this year. That’s good enough and will allow us to bide time while we wait for the freshman receivers to acclimate, and hopefully go to another bowl next year.

Noah was a gamer but what are these guys thinking. Noah's best year is arguably 2021- he had 2120 total yds 9 Total TD and 7 Int. Melton/Jones/Cruikshank/IP
Gavin 2131 yards 18 Total TD and 8 Int Dremel/Washington/Strong/KM

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

133 yards is 13 First Downs, not an insignificant amount you seem to be portraying it to be. A sack adjusted 97 yard difference is 9 first downs, close to 10.

His 4.0 non sack adjusted average is 38% higher than Noah’s 2.9, also not insignificant.

So, the facts show that Gavin was far more effective a rusher than Noah. Yes, his passing isn’t where we’d like it to be, but his rushing prowess ensures we will beat everyone we’re supposed to beat.

What you fail to remember is that though Noah threw for a higher percentage, there were very few explosive plays, because the defense did not have to respect the long ball. The balls he threw took a while to get to the receiver, allowing time for the defenses to adjust. So Noah’s dinking and dunking was ineffective vs the Michigans, OSUs, and PSUs for the most part, because those defenses are fast and tackle well.

Gavin had a lot of explosive plays, such as Dremels 80 yard TD reception vs Michigan.

The bottomline is, we’re not replacing a quarterback that took us to 6 wins and bowling. That’s the way it looks to me. There’s a big reason Gavin is The Rutgers face on all pinstripe bowl promotional materials. He is the face of the program.

Gavin improved his completion percentage by roughly 3 percentage points from last year. He will work to show continued improvement, and he should be able to improve his completion percentage to over 50%, next year, given his improvement this year. That’s good enough and will allow us to bide time while we wait for the freshman receivers to acclimate, and hopefully go to another bowl next year.

How are you getting 13 extra first downs? 80 of the 133 yards came on one single play.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Noah was a gamer but what are these guys thinking. Noah's best year is arguably 2021- he had 2120 total yds 9 Total TD and 7 Int. Melton/Jones/Cruikshank/IP
Gavin 2131 yards 18 Total TD and 8 Int Dremel/Washington/Strong/KM

That receiving corp is irrelevant. None of those guys are Caroo and Sanu where you can chuck up 50 / 50 balls and expect to complete them at a high rate.

The point being made here is that while Noah is not a stud QB, when he had time to throw the ball, he was accurate. And he could be trusted to adjust the play call on the fly. Once Sutton went down, Noah rarely had time in 2021. He still completed 60% of his passes on the season. Yes - that’s mostly because they were safe, short passes but with our upgraded trenches that alone would put us in way better position to win. Noah’s 2022 numbers are not relevant as he couldn’t even feel his hand. Never should’ve attempted to play after the injury. That Schiano went with him to give it a go says a lot.

 

[rutgersal]

Geez Al. It's obviously not about getting a schulb or about getting reps. This is about upgrading our QB play and you know it. We need one of 3 things to happen next year to be an improved team: 1) Gavin gets a lot better...it's been discussed ad nauseum about inaccuracy, inability to read, small playbook, and on and on. 2) AJ or Ajani prove to be ready to take over and enable a better offense. or 3) we put whatever QB we get from the portal in and let AJ and Ajani use the year to further develop. I don't see #1 happening, but I hope I'm wrong. We need a stronger QB room. If coach actually does feel that Gavin was our overwhelmingly best chance to win this season (as evidenced by the fact that nobody got any minutes behind him, regardless of the situations), then the room needs a massive upgrade. So we don't need a schlub and we don't need to give some charity minutes to a combination of AJ, Ajani, and said schlub. Rather, we need to upgrade the position immediately and the portal guy needs to be better than Gavin...which should not be too hard to find. Deep down you know this but for some reason you want to argue it to the point of falling on your sword. We all want a better product on the field and we all know the QB spot is one of the most glaring weaknesses we have. Let's hope coach takes action so we have legitimate options to have a more competitive team "just in case" Gavin doesn't develop accuracy, touch, ability to read defense pre-snap, ability to go through progressions in live action, and on and on. This way, if Gavin does all this and becomes a competent qb we're in great shape with strong backups and we have competition to make everyone better.

Kirk Ciarocca says it takes three years for a QB to master his offense, so I don’t see the value in taking a game manager portal QB for a year, which is what we can realistically land.

Schiano was asked a direct question whether he’s taking a portal QB, and he danced around it, so I’m not going to hold my breathe. I can’t think of anyone we’ve landed that would be an upgrade over Gavin.

Ajani has already been in the offense for a year, and AJ is coming in January, so it looks like we’ll roll with these three, at least for now. Ajani can do as much as anyone we’d land from the portal, and in time AJ will be able to do same. The competition that they will provide is good enough. Looks to me like we’re counting on organic improvement.
However, Coach can always change his mind.

 

[yesrutgers01]

That receiving corp is irrelevant. None of those guys are Caroo and Sanu where you can chuck up 50 / 50 balls and expect to complete them at a high rate.

The point being made here is that while Noah is not a stud QB, when he had time to throw the ball, he was accurate. And he could be trusted to adjust the play call on the fly. Once Sutton went down, Noah rarely had time in 2021. He still completed 60% of his passes on the season. Yes - that’s mostly because they were safe, short passes but with our upgraded trenches that alone would put us in way better position to win. Noah’s 2022 numbers are not relevant as he couldn’t even feel his hand. Never should’ve attempted to play after the injury. That Schiano went with him to give it a go says a lot.

I'm not sure our current WR's will get on an active NFL roster or even sign a 1 year deal in the NFL...
But let's say Melton and Cruickshank would not help GW ???? - he still had a better year this year(which, even I am disappointed with and leads me to question if he can make the next step) Than Noah did in his best year.

The point is- we NEED much better from the QB position then we got this year. What GW did this year is just not enough.

But to keep seeing people bring up names as if they were 2008 Teel vs GW - is just crazy. Noah- for instance, He is a pure gamer and the young man put it all out there every game for us. But he was a game manager and was rarely allowed to throw a pass over 15 yards. This gave him his 60% but outside of completion % - there is not a single number to back up that he was so much better.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Kirk Ciarocca says it takes three years for a QB to master his offense, so I don’t see the value in taking a game manager portal QB for a year, which is what we can realistically land.

Schiano was asked a direct question whether he’s taking a portal QB, and he danced around it, so I’m not going to hold my breathe. I can’t think of anyone we’ve landed that would be an upgrade over Gavin.

Ajani has already been in the offense for a year, and AJ is coming in January, so it looks like we’ll roll with these three, at least for now. Ajani can do as much as anyone we’d land from the portal, and in time AJ will be able to do same. The competition that they will provide is good enough. Looks to me like we’re counting on organic improvement.
However, Coach can always change his mind.

What did you expect Schiano to say before the bowl game? We’re going out to replace Gavin? There was no way.

I doubt we are looking to replace him but it seems beyond foolish (regardless of how long Kirk points to on development process) to go all in expecting Gavin to suddenly develop the ability to run read option when to this point he has shown zero ability to run anything in the air other than the preset call before the snap. That limitation is massive if it’s not overcome. To not bring in someone with this ability in case Gavin fails to develop trustable instinct seems ridiculous when all we have at back up are frosh. Forget about his low completion numbers, this limitation is the bigger problem. By far.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I'm not sure our current WR's will get on an active NFL roster or even sign a 1 year deal in the NFL...
But let's say Melton and Cruickshank would not help GW ???? - he still had a better year this year(which, even I am disappointed with and leads me to question if he can make the next step) Than Noah did in his best year.

The point is- we NEED much better from the QB position then we got this year. What GW did this year is just not enough.

But to keep seeing people bring up names as if they were 2008 Teel vs GW - is just crazy. Noah- for instance, He is a pure gamer and the young man put it all out there every game for us. But he was a game manager and was rarely allowed to throw a pass over 15 yards. This gave him his 60% but outside of completion % - there is not a single number to back up that he was so much better.

Yes I agree with you. To be clear, I’d obviously rather get someone better than Noah Vedral from the portal. The only point I’m making is that considering he didn’t throw long balls, who the receivers were in 2021 relative to 2023 didn’t much matter. Noah was what he was - a reliable short and medium game passer (despite having far less time than Gavin) who with this year’s pass protection I believe would’ve helped us move the chains and win at least one if not 2 more games. He also was able to adjust his decisions mid-play which Gavin cannot do.

Again - I hope we can get someone better than Noah. The point is - at minimum we can definitely get someone like Noah and I’d much rather have that person on the roster competing with Gavin than add nobody.

 

[rutgersal]

That receiving corp is irrelevant. None of those guys are Caroo and Sanu where you can chuck up 50 / 50 balls and expect to complete them at a high rate.

The point being made here is that while Noah is not a stud QB, when he had time to throw the ball, he was accurate. And he could be trusted to adjust the play call on the fly. Once Sutton went down, Noah rarely had time in 2021. He still completed 60% of his passes on the season. Yes - that’s mostly because they were safe, short passes but with our upgraded trenches that alone would put us in way better position to win. Noah’s 2022 numbers are not relevant as he couldn’t even feel his hand. Never should’ve attempted to play after the injury. That Schiano went with him to give it a go says a lot.

It’s very relevant because the receivers Noah was throwing to had superior skillsets and at least a few are getting NFL paychecks. And he also had Isaiah Pacheco. And he had a clear WR1 in Bo Melton, who had 55 catches. There were only 8 more sacks than what we had this year. The fact that we didn’t have a more explosive offense, speaks to Noah’s limitations.

This is not a 6 win team with Noah, because our offense would be too easy to defend, and there would be a lack of explosive plays.

Gavin’s skillset allows us to do more with less.

 

[rutgersal]

What did you expect Schiano to say before the bowl game? We’re going out to replace Gavin? There was no way.

I doubt we are looking to replace him but it seems beyond foolish (regardless of how long Kirk points to on development process) to go all in expecting Gavin to suddenly develop the ability to run read option when to this point he has shown zero ability to run anything in the air other than the preset call before the snap. That limitation is massive if it’s not overcome. To not bring in someone with this ability in case Gavin fails to develop trustable instinct seems ridiculous when all we have at back up are frosh. Forget about his low completion numbers, this limitation is the bigger problem. By far.

If we were seriously pursuing a portal QB I would expect offers to be out there. The best QBs are going to be snapped up quickly.
They are not waiting for our bowl game to make their decisions.

I’m happy to ride and die with the three QBs we have on the roster. And if coach wants to bring in another qb, so be it. Just not seeing it, up till now.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

It’s very relevant because the receivers Noah was throwing to had superior skillsets and at least a few are getting NFL paychecks. And he also had Isaiah Pacheco. And he had a clear WR1 in Bo Melton, who had 55 catches. There were only 8 more sacks than what we had this year. The fact that we didn’t have a more explosive offense, speaks to Noah’s limitations.

This is not a 6 win team with Noah, because our offense would be too easy to defend, and there would be a lack of explosive plays.

Gavin’s skillset allows us to do more with less.

Sure thing, Al. I’m glad you brought up Pops. Now you just look foolish. Future NFL star. Yet check out his rush numbers that 2021 season at Rutger. Tells you everything you need to know about how terrible our OL was. Nobody was moving the ball on the ground that season (outside of garbage time) once we lost Sutton. Pops season long rush was only 26 yards. He only rushed for 647 yards total on 167 carries.

 

[rutgersal]

How are you getting 13 extra first downs? 80 of the 133 yards came on one single play.

Those 80 yards still count as part of the average and total. You can’t just exclude them because you want to.

 

[yesrutgers01]

Yes I agree with you. To be clear, I’d obviously rather get someone better than Noah Vedral from the portal. The only point I’m making is that considering he didn’t throw long balls, who the receivers were in 2021 relative to 2023 didn’t much matter. Noah was what he was - a reliable short and medium game passer (despite having far less time than Gavin) who with this year’s pass protection I believe would’ve helped us move the chains and win at least one if not 2 more games. He also was able to adjust his decisions mid-play which Gavin cannot do.

Again - I hope we can get someone better than Noah. The point is - at minimum we can definitely get someone like Noah and I’d much rather have that person on the roster competing with Gavin than add nobody.

Not sure where the 2 more games would come from? I am not sure 2nd half of 2008 Teel is getting us 2 more. Maybe the Wisc game and it wasn't just the QB against Maryland, Let's go through this again
Lost to #1 @ Michigan
Lost to @Wisc when they had their starting QB
Lost to #7 OSU
Lost to #17 @Iowa
Lost to #10@PSU
Lost to Maryland

 

[kupuna133]

I don’t understand how he thinks he can be successful in today’s game with a three year program. With roster turn over the way it is you simply aren’t going to have a qb for 3 years all the time.

I watched his offense all year and memorized it within the first game. I was able to predict play calls and primary targets with great accuracy due to alignment and packages.

Kirk does not run a complicated offense. Just ask opposing d coordinators.

 

[rutgersal]

Sure thing, Al. I’m glad you brought up Pops. Now you just look foolish. Future NFL star. Yet check out his rush numbers that 2021 season at Rutger. Tells you everything you need to know about how terrible our OL was. Nobody was moving the ball on the ground that season (outside of garbage time) once we lost Sutton. Pops season long rush was only 26 yards. He only rushed for 647 yards total on 167 carries.

Part of the reason Pop only rushed for 167 yards is no one respected the deep ball, so teams loaded the box, and understandably so. Noah didn’t have the arm to deliver a deep ball.

You want to blame everything on the OL, but the fact is, it wasn’t as bad as you claim.
This years line was better, no doubt.

And if you look at Noah’s stats in individual big ten games, they weren’t even that impressive. They were ok.

Now predictably, you will blame the offensive line, but not every opponent we faced that year had an effective pass rush. What you are doing is idealizing Noah Vedral. Loved him though, and understand he did the best he could.

Michigan: 18 of 31 for 156 yards
OSU: 16 of 26 for 152 yards
MSU: 16 of 31 for 208 yards
Northwestern: 18 of 30 for 152 yards
Illinois: 10 of 21 for 138 yards
Wisconsin: 8 of 16 for 81 yards
Indiana: 9 of 17 for 97 yards
PSU: 12 of 23 for 91 yards
Maryland: 7 of 14 for 55 yards

Total completion %: 54.5%

 

[yesrutgers01]

Part of the reason Pop only rushed for 167 yards is no one respected the deep ball, so teams loaded the box, and understandably so. Noah didn’t have the arm to deliver a deep ball.

You want to blame everything on the OL, but the fact is, it wasn’t as bad as you claim.
This years line was better, no doubt.

And if you look at Noah’s stats in individual big ten games, they weren’t even that impressive. They were ok.

Now predictably, you will blame the offensive line, but not every opponent we faced that year had an effective pass rush. What you are doing is idealizing Noah Vedral. Loved him though, and understand he did the best he could.

Michigan: 18 of 31 for 156 yards
OSU: 16 of 26 for 152 yards
MSU: 16 of 31 for 208 yards
Northwestern: 18 of 30 for 152 yards
Illinois: 10 of 21 for 138 yards
Wisconsin: 8 of 16 for 81 yards
Indiana: 9 of 17 for 97 yards
PSU: 12 of 23 for 91 yards
Maryland: 7 of 14 for 55 yards

Total completion %: 54.5%

In 2021- the OL was not good. But with that- they also faced 7-8 on them majority of snaps. We were playing a redzone offense and allowed the defense to play a RZ defense against us all over the field. We gave the defense only 20 yards to worry about at any given time. I would actually say that the threat of a long ball as well as GW's legs, would have allowed Pops many more yards then he got that year.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Part of the reason Pop only rushed for 167 yards is no one respected the deep ball, so teams loaded the box, and understandably so. Noah didn’t have the arm to deliver a deep ball.

You want to blame everything on the OL, but the fact is, it wasn’t as bad as you claim.
This years line was better, no doubt.

And if you look at Noah’s stats in individual big ten games, they weren’t even that impressive. They were ok.

Now predictably, you will blame the offensive line, but not every opponent we faced that year had an effective pass rush. What you are doing is idealizing Noah Vedral. Loved him though, and understand he did the best he could.

Michigan: 18 of 31 for 156 yards
OSU: 16 of 26 for 152 yards
MSU: 16 of 31 for 208 yards
Northwestern: 18 of 30 for 152 yards
Illinois: 10 of 21 for 138 yards
Wisconsin: 8 of 16 for 81 yards
Indiana: 9 of 17 for 97 yards
PSU: 12 of 23 for 91 yards
Maryland: 7 of 14 for 55 yards

Total completion %: 54.5%

He was also 22 for 28 or something like that vs Syracuse. That was with Sutton and before O’Neal got hurt though…. To be clear, I don’t think Noah is a good QB. I just think Gavin is destined to be worse because of his issues adjusting a play beyond the presnap call. Unless he can fix that (and it hasn’t improved season over season - to date he’s shown zero ability to do this period) we can do better than both of them.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

In 2021- the OL was not good. But with that- they also faced 7-8 on them majority of snaps. We were playing a redzone offense and allowed the defense to play a RZ defense against us all over the field. We gave the defense only 20 yards to worry about at any given time. I would actually say that the threat of a long ball as well as GW's legs, would have allowed Pops many more yards then he got that year.

What deep “threat” are you talking about exactly? He’s not accurate. On the few long completions Gavin’s made - our receivers made stand out plays to hall in all of them. Gavin threw for a long of 30+ only 6 times this season (he had 40+ In 4 of them) By the way though - so did Noah (4 games in 2021 with a 40+ yard completion). He actually threw at least one 30+ yard pass 8 times and never didn’t complete at least one 20+ yard pass play in a game that season. Some of those were on yards picked up after the catch but that’s because he had good ball placement. You cannot blame our receivers for failing to pick up yards post catch this year for Gavin because it’s about 1000% (and that’s probably still not even enough) his fault on nearly every one of them. He’s lucky the receptions were made in the first place - he did not put his wide outs in the position to pick up post catch yards because the throws weren’t ever on the money.

But going back to your point - you seriously think the relative threat of a long ball from Gavin compared to Vedral explains why Kyle had more success on the ground this year than Pops did in 2021 - and not the vast difference in the OLs? Really? Again - what threat? I mean shame on those defenses for letting Kyle rush for over 1000 yards to prevent Gavin from completing one or two Hail Mary throws. That’s what your basically saying…

Also - what about the 2023 impact of the D knowing there is zero threat of a well executed lateral play or screen. No need to protect the edge because Gavin inexplicably can’t make those throws cleanly. I’d love to see what this year’s team could do with an offense that could complete those bubble plays to the sides. It would open up so much - if just this (and being able to run read options) were added. Whoever is QB.

 

[tomatocan]

"Kirk Ciarocca says it takes three years for a QB to master his offense." Really??! Three years to learn and master a playbook consisting of 6 plays?

 

[yesrutgers01]

"Kirk Ciarocca says it takes three years for a QB to master his offense." Really??! Three years to learn and master a playbook consisting of 6 plays?

When they gave that quote from KC- I understood why we had to get rid of him the first time. I would imagine that if we didn't have a great OL coach this year- it would have been a complete disaster.

 

[ScarletDog]

Kirk Ciarocca says it takes three years for a QB to master his offense, so I don’t see the value in taking a game manager portal QB for a year, which is what we can realistically land.

Schiano was asked a direct question whether he’s taking a portal QB, and he danced around it, so I’m not going to hold my breathe. I can’t think of anyone we’ve landed that would be an upgrade over Gavin.

Ajani has already been in the offense for a year, and AJ is coming in January, so it looks like we’ll roll with these three, at least for now. Ajani can do as much as anyone we’d land from the portal, and in time AJ will be able to do same. The competition that they will provide is good enough. Looks to me like we’re counting on organic improvement.
However, Coach can always change his mind.

He danced around it...did not denounce it. He will get a portal qb if one will come. Coach does not want to spook current QB before the bowl game and does not want to publicly say "yes we're getting a portal qb" in case he can't land one. But you know and I know that it is a very very bad idea to enter next season without a solid plan.

Also regarding what the announcer said last game about Kirk stating it take 3 years to learn this offense. We all know that's total bull poo. It take 3 years for a QB to learn this offense if he does not possess the physical development, the mental development (ability to understand, process, execute), and/or experience. A portal QB could check multiple boxes and learn the system quickly. This stuff isn't rocket science for a competent quarterback.

I still believe AJ will contribute early. He will be mentally ready and has the physical (throwing) development. Question will be how well he adjusts to the speed and size of the game. And this is why we must have a portal qb in time for spring. You know better than to listen to coach speak...dancing around the topic isn't saying it's not the plan. Watch and learn.

 

[mildone]

Rutgers must go to the portal and add a reasonably decent qb to the room. To not would be borderline criminal.

GS said, in his bowl acceptance press-conference, that getting players from the portal isn't just about identifying the right player anymore, but in many cases, it's about coming up with the NIL funding necessary to secure the player. And I think he basically said, in not so many words, that we don't have the funding to compete for the top players available.

If I had to guess, I'd guess the team is on the lookout for a portal QB (Schiano said as much) but that actually landing one that is going to beat out GW for the starter role seems unlikely unless a fairly significant increase to available NIL funds occurs.

The coach can't do a damn thing w/out the NIL funding to beat out the other programs who go after the same players we want. So... yeah, we can talk about it all we want here, but it's a "show me the money" situation and there's no way around that anymore.

 

[ScarletDog]

GS said, in his bowl acceptance press-conference, that getting players from the portal isn't just about identifying the right player anymore, but in many cases, it's about coming up with the NIL funding necessary to secure the player. And I think he basically said, in not so many words, that we don't have the funding to compete for the top players available.

If I had to guess, I'd guess the team is on the lookout for a portal QB (Schiano said as much) but that actually landing one that is going to beat out GW for the starter role seems unlikely unless a fairly significant increase to available NIL funds occurs.

The coach can't do a damn thing w/out the NIL funding to beat out the other programs who go after the same players we want. So... yeah, we can talk about it all we want here, but it's a "show me the money" situation and there's no way around that anymore.

We don't need Joe Namath, we need a guy that can complete some passes. I refuse to believe we can't find a competent qb in the portal that can be a win-win with the kid.

 

[Plum Street]

Kirk Ciarocca says it takes three years for a QB to master his offense, so I don’t see the value in taking a game manager portal QB for a year, which is what we can realistically land.

Schiano was asked a direct question whether he’s taking a portal QB, and he danced around it, so I’m not going to hold my breathe. I can’t think of anyone we’ve landed that would be an upgrade over Gavin.

Ajani has already been in the offense for a year, and AJ is coming in January, so it looks like we’ll roll with these three, at least for now. Ajani can do as much as anyone we’d land from the portal, and in time AJ will be able to do same. The competition that they will provide is good enough. Looks to me like we’re counting on organic improvement.
However, Coach can always change his mind.

Do you believe it takes 3 years to master the ciarocca offense ??

 

[NewJerseyGuy]

Can somebody please change the title of this thread so we don’t scare off any potential portal WRs?

Thanks.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

GS said, in his bowl acceptance press-conference, that getting players from the portal isn't just about identifying the right player anymore, but in many cases, it's about coming up with the NIL funding necessary to secure the player. And I think he basically said, in not so many words, that we don't have the funding to compete for the top players available.

If I had to guess, I'd guess the team is on the lookout for a portal QB (Schiano said as much) but that actually landing one that is going to beat out GW for the starter role seems unlikely unless a fairly significant increase to available NIL funds occurs.

The coach can't do a damn thing w/out the NIL funding to beat out the other programs who go after the same players we want. So... yeah, we can talk about it all we want here, but it's a "show me the money" situation and there's no way around that anymore.

He’s saying it that way because it’s the right thing (or I should say the right way) to say it right now (NIL point aside). It’s true that we’re probably not going to be shelling out big money to land a proven brand name QB for the season. We need the funds to retain the players that we have developed at other key positions.

Behind closed doors , the message to Gavin will be exactly this. We need a proven back up with Evan gone. We fully expect you to continue to develop and as long as that happens you’ll continue to be our guy.

On the recruiting trail, the message will be quite different to the Noah Vedral, Art Sitowski and the like type audience of candidates. It’ll go more like this “listen here’s the deal - we brought in Gavin - he’s been growing in our program but quite honestly we had hoped he would’ve developed more to this point. There’s still a chance that he figures things out, but we’re not planning to give him another season to work through his issues. We need a QB who can complete more than 50% of passes (our OL is much improved) and who we can count on to adjust play calls on their own after the snap when the original plan breaks down. Do you think these are things you can do for us next season? If so, there’s a good chance you’ll be our starter next season.”

 

[zappaa]

GS said, in his bowl acceptance press-conference, that getting players from the portal isn't just about identifying the right player anymore, but in many cases, it's about coming up with the NIL funding necessary to secure the player. And I think he basically said, in not so many words, that we don't have the funding to compete for the top players available.

If I had to guess, I'd guess the team is on the lookout for a portal QB (Schiano said as much) but that actually landing one that is going to beat out GW for the starter role seems unlikely unless a fairly significant increase to available NIL funds occurs.

The coach can't do a damn thing w/out the NIL funding to beat out the other programs who go after the same players we want. So... yeah, we can talk about it all we want here, but it's a "show me the money" situation and there's no way around that anymore.

Rutgers football NIL is used to keep the players we have.
Sometimes it’s used to match an offer if a player has been tampered with.

Does anyone think a guy like Hollin Pierce who never gets hurt and plays every game would be pissed if Rutgers paid twice as much as he makes for a new portal Right Tackle?
Do you think that scenario would create a healthy locker room?

 

[mildone]

We don't need Joe Namath, we need a guy that can complete some passes. I refuse to believe we can't find a competent qb in the portal that can be a win-win with the kid.

We were never getting Joe Namath anyway, and that's not what I (or GS) are talking about.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what we believe. All that can possibly matter is what can be accomplished in reality. And, in reality, our odds of landing a better QB would be greatly improved by increased NIL funding.

GW is competent (despite his critics). Buy he has major throwing consistency issues. If he were consistent, if he regularly threw ALL his passes at the level of his best passes, then he'd actually be really good and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Thing is, the distinction between competent and consistent is really important here. Because there's a reason a QB winds up in the portal. There might be a few sure thing QBs that wind up there. But there are always going to be a lot more kids who couldn't win the competition at their prior school for various good reasons (consistency being one of them).

So yeah, I'm pretty sure there will a lot of competition for those relative few guys who are an obvious improvement. And those guys will be won by the school with the best NIL package. After that, it's gonna be a bit of a crap shoot, no matter the wishful thinking the various parties engage in.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

We were never getting Joe Namath anyway, and that's not what I (or GS) are talking about.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what we believe. All that can possibly matter is what can be accomplished in reality. And, in reality, our odds of landing a better QB would be greatly improved by increased NIL funding.

GW is competent (despite his critics). Buy he has major throwing consistency issues. If he were consistent, if he regularly threw ALL his passes at the level of his best passes, then he'd actually be really good and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Thing is, the distinction between competent and consistent is really important here. Because there's a reason a QB winds up in the portal. There might be a few sure thing QBs that wind up there. But there are always going to be a lot more kids who couldn't win the competition at their prior school for various good reasons (consistency being one of them).

So yeah, I'm pretty sure there will a lot of competition for those relative few guys who are an obvious improvement. And those guys will be won by the school with the best NIL package. After that, it's gonna be a bit of a crap shoot, no matter the wishful thinking the various parties engage in.

His short and medium pass game is not “competent”.