Indiana played with fundamentally sound players unlike our predominantly one on one approach. Their bigs made our bigs look like statues driving around them. They drove the lane with their guards and no one stopped them. We did that and 2 or 3 girls from IU collapsed on us. We were horrible from 3 and they shot better than us. We had close to 15 more shots than them. Refs were not great but so what. They are a better team than us with a better coaching job. They would beat us 9 out of 10 times for anyone who objectively saw the game.
Game 13: Rutgers Women's Hoops vs. No. 14/15 Indiana
- Thread starter Tango Two
- Start date
Wins in December don’t make the season. Nor do losses. Let’s see how we do the rest of the year before writing them off. Remember that Indiana came in ranked #14. It’s not like we got beaten by a D3 school.
CVS used to preach, “to be the best, you need to play the best”. Coach Eatman (postgame interview) said today’s loss will teach the team a lot. So, why is RU scheduling preseason games with such pushover opponents. The opponents are getting more out of these games than RU?
Well, it seems that the people who dumped all over the RU WBB after they lost a game to a team that has been ranked all season exposed themselves once again. Do you guys think you actually grow a centimetre or something? How about you send your curricula vitae to the ¿fifth? winningest college coach of all time and let her know that you can set her straight on all the things she does wrong.
Scarlet Knights have an average (~33%) game from beyond the arc, and it is likely a victory instead of a loss against a highly ranked defensive and offensive team.
http://scores.nbcsports.com/wcbk/recap.asp?g=201912310492&home=492&vis=271
Scarlet Knights have an average (~33%) game from beyond the arc, and it is likely a victory instead of a loss against a highly ranked defensive and offensive team.
http://scores.nbcsports.com/wcbk/recap.asp?g=201912310492&home=492&vis=271
I was at the game and I have very good seats, so I think I get a pretty good perspective on how the refs were calling the game and I agree with your assessment. I would also add that the game was called inconsistently. They seemed to be calling fouls in the second half for things they did not call in the first. The refs also missed several blatant travels. Arella was getting clobbered much of the time and not getting the foul called when she drove to the basket while almost every time KK drove in the second half, she was getting the Indiana player called for the foul. Even so, we still could have won the game if we shot a little better and I am still optimistic for the season. Indiana is a good team and we were right there with them until the end. We didn't quit. We really aren't a one person scoring team. Both Mack and Sanders contributed today and have for the season so far. We really need to get more out of our Bigs. Fouls took Jordan out of the last two games, Maori is just a freshman and Slim really is too in terms of time on the court. Both of them will get better the more they play. IMO anyone who gives up on this team at this point in the season isn't really being fair.
What happened to Noga Pelc? Is she injured? She is our true outside threat.
Bottom line. This team should not be losing to a team like Indiana on our home court. The minute we stepped on court for warm up, we looked ragged. Indiana came out with energy and all the players were dressed the same. Our team begrudgingly came out (so it seems), everyone dressed differently, slowly. I was not impressed from the get go. Cmon Viv.
Wow! 11-2 and fans are quitting already. Following should be noted.
RU played even with IU for 3 of the 4 quarters and only lost by 10.
This is a young and inexperienced team. There are 2 grad students (I believe one is a transfer) but zero seniors. Lots of freshmen and sophomores.
If you have been a RU WBB fan for a long time as some claim, you should know that the first half of the season does not define their play. If you want to do some research, look up what their record was in January of the year the played for the NC and the first time they went to the final four.
This team will be a lot better in March, but this is not the year to expect a big run.
RU played even with IU for 3 of the 4 quarters and only lost by 10.
This is a young and inexperienced team. There are 2 grad students (I believe one is a transfer) but zero seniors. Lots of freshmen and sophomores.
If you have been a RU WBB fan for a long time as some claim, you should know that the first half of the season does not define their play. If you want to do some research, look up what their record was in January of the year the played for the NC and the first time they went to the final four.
This team will be a lot better in March, but this is not the year to expect a big run.
You certainly are exempting Arella and Tekia from this comment? Arella averaged 12.1 pts per game last season and is averaging 19.7 so far this season. She is one of the best players in the B1G. Tekia went from 5.3 pts last season to 14.5 so far this season and IMO is a joy to watch.
Look at the team scoring.
Indiana was very balanced.
RU was Arella and second half K.K.
Easy to defend against RU...mostly play a zone, double or triple Arella after she receives the ball.
Rarely do you see a kick out to an open three. Although Arella got mugged several times with no call....once clobbered on the top of her head
Do they ever run a play designed for T. Mack to get a shot?
She was not happy being pulled often in the second half.
Many out of control plays in the first half, forced shots, and I believe Zippy twice drove into a double team losing the ball. Alexis Morris has yet to show anything; she lost her defensive assignment trying to double in the area of the foul line extended giving Indiana a wide open corner three extending their lead late in the game.Not the time or place to double.
Ugh!
Indiana was very balanced.
RU was Arella and second half K.K.
Easy to defend against RU...mostly play a zone, double or triple Arella after she receives the ball.
Rarely do you see a kick out to an open three. Although Arella got mugged several times with no call....once clobbered on the top of her head
Do they ever run a play designed for T. Mack to get a shot?
She was not happy being pulled often in the second half.
Many out of control plays in the first half, forced shots, and I believe Zippy twice drove into a double team losing the ball. Alexis Morris has yet to show anything; she lost her defensive assignment trying to double in the area of the foul line extended giving Indiana a wide open corner three extending their lead late in the game.Not the time or place to double.
Ugh!
those two players are awesome. Mack has become more consistent and Arella has really stepped into the leadership and go to role. That being said she cant take 24 shots a game, thats not a good thing...she played the entire game until she got hurt. The highly ranked recruits need to step it up...players ranked 14 and 24 in all of high school basketball should be having immediate impacts and one is now a soph. These types of players who go to uconns, nds, and baylors of the world all seem to have immediate impacts
So, Indiana is rated top 20 in both offense and defense. What kind of teams should RU be losing to on their home floor? Did you even read, watch, or listen to the game? Perhaps review the box score. What stunningly ignorant statements. You do realise that RU was outscored only one point in the first and second quarters. They scored that same amount in the fourth quarter. It was a single quarter, really half a quarter--the end of the third, that cost the Scarlet Knights the game.
Wow. I wonder is half of you guys even follow women´s basketball. I think you only look to see if RU loses, then decide to go on the board and criticise, as if you could do a better job than the coaches who work with the players on a daily or near-daily basis.
I was at the game hon. I thought we played raggedly. Sorry. I’ve been a fan since the Grentz era. This was not a memorable RU game. 11-2 for now. We’ll be a .500 team if we keep playing like this.
Wow. You seem a bit defensive. I'm not sure what upset you about a question I have in which I clearly state, "Not sure I understand why..."
Rather than trying to insult someone, why don't you try holding up the other end of that discussion. This is supposed to be a message board where threads involve a bit of a discussion. If you have an answer, let me know, but to spout off as if I'm condemning CVS is a bit over the top -- and also kind of strange.
Just so you know, I've been a fan since '85 and I've traveled thousands of miles with this team over the years. And at this juncture in the season, I would still like someone to explain why she threw in Morris when the starters seemed to have pretty good chemistry going into that Wisconsin game.
You did not answer the question. Your deflective response reinforces the ridiculousness of your comment that RU should not be losing to a top-20 team. Just write that the team played raggedly if you believe that--you know, something credible not asinine.
Don´t call me hon, sweetie.
Ah, yet another poster who suddenly posts on the board. Perhaps you are a lurker. I doubt that because if you were, you would know something about Alexis Morris and how long she has been with the team and her expected contribution.
Calling out laziness is neither defensive nor insulting, in my opinion. Your choice of adjectives reveals something about you.
The quality of officiating in women's basketball has completely soured me on watching the games at this point. Unless it's a really big game or tournament game, I generally just catch up the next day with the result. And it's not just Rutgers' games.... I've watched some top five matchups in the last few years when UConn was playing Notre Dame or Baylor or whoever, and the officiating was terrible there, too.
I remember reading an article somewhere about referee compensation, where the best refs go where the money is best, how women's college ball is the fourth rung down on that ladder, and how it has to get by on refs not good enough to make it elsewhere.
So, it doesn't surprise me that the refs were bad in this particular game - because they're bad in almost every game. They're just an obstacle to overcome that both sides have to deal with and adjust for. We're not unique in seeing bad refs - in fact, we probably see better refs than some of the lower leagues do (which is hard to believe, but likely true). The team just has to find a way to overcome it, since it's not going to suddenly get any better.
I remember reading an article somewhere about referee compensation, where the best refs go where the money is best, how women's college ball is the fourth rung down on that ladder, and how it has to get by on refs not good enough to make it elsewhere.
So, it doesn't surprise me that the refs were bad in this particular game - because they're bad in almost every game. They're just an obstacle to overcome that both sides have to deal with and adjust for. We're not unique in seeing bad refs - in fact, we probably see better refs than some of the lower leagues do (which is hard to believe, but likely true). The team just has to find a way to overcome it, since it's not going to suddenly get any better.
Watch Coach Stringer’s post game press conference in which she explains why the soft preconference schedule, in which ways some on the team have much to learn. The press conferences are good this year - cogent, frank - worth watching.
Interesting comments in this AP article about how Indiana emphasizes practicing specifically to each scouting report (and especially how, after last year's late lose to RU, worked especially hard to get ready for our press).
https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/recap?gameId=401166813
Conversely, watching the game yesterday, and especially watching Arella getting tripled (and mugged) trying to work her way inside, I thought that we weren't prepared for that ball-pressure defense and low post defensive talent. Arella's and T-Baby's one-on-one basketball talent just wasn't going to work consistently against that team.
https://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/recap?gameId=401166813
Conversely, watching the game yesterday, and especially watching Arella getting tripled (and mugged) trying to work her way inside, I thought that we weren't prepared for that ball-pressure defense and low post defensive talent. Arella's and T-Baby's one-on-one basketball talent just wasn't going to work consistently against that team.
Yes, I know all about her "expected contribution." You seem to still be missing the point.
Well the game on Sunday against Purdue should give us an indication of where this team is headed they are 2-0 in conference if we win we can say the ship may have been righted if we lose than I think we really have to worry that we are seeing the same scenario we have seen these past number of seasons
ea
Is any criticism of CVS allowed?
Our O is so basic my high school team from 40 years ago could defend it.
We often have sets where a player sets up in the corner and never moves,
yet rarely gets the ball, even when our player, usually Arella, gets double and triple teamed just inside the foul line. We run single and double screens to get Arella the ball but that rarely gets her an open shot when both defenders (and sometimes three) collapse to Arella. Yet we get very few passes for open looks. Is it a spacing problem? With where the double screens are set up it results in too many players in a small space so even when the D collapses on Arella there is little space to pass to the screeners. A short pass in traffic is a demanding skill and relies on the receiver to have great hands. Even with my high school level experience I see this. How come we can't ask why our 1000 win and Hall of Fame coach doesn't?
Our centers were significantly outplayed yesterday. This was disappointing. In pregame warmups
it appeared Rutgers was going to have a height advantage at the 3, 4, and 5. I haven't looked at the stats. What were the rebounding stats? And the Indiana 3 was an outside threat.
And with the risk of being called a racist I will say that those skinny pony-tailed young women could play.
As an aside what is the deal with the Indiana head coach? The top assistant (a man in a grey jacket) was making all the O and D calls and controlled the time out conferences.
Is any criticism of CVS allowed?
Our O is so basic my high school team from 40 years ago could defend it.
We often have sets where a player sets up in the corner and never moves,
yet rarely gets the ball, even when our player, usually Arella, gets double and triple teamed just inside the foul line. We run single and double screens to get Arella the ball but that rarely gets her an open shot when both defenders (and sometimes three) collapse to Arella. Yet we get very few passes for open looks. Is it a spacing problem? With where the double screens are set up it results in too many players in a small space so even when the D collapses on Arella there is little space to pass to the screeners. A short pass in traffic is a demanding skill and relies on the receiver to have great hands. Even with my high school level experience I see this. How come we can't ask why our 1000 win and Hall of Fame coach doesn't?
Our centers were significantly outplayed yesterday. This was disappointing. In pregame warmups
it appeared Rutgers was going to have a height advantage at the 3, 4, and 5. I haven't looked at the stats. What were the rebounding stats? And the Indiana 3 was an outside threat.
And with the risk of being called a racist I will say that those skinny pony-tailed young women could play.
As an aside what is the deal with the Indiana head coach? The top assistant (a man in a grey jacket) was making all the O and D calls and controlled the time out conferences.
I have been saying this about our offense for years that CVS is obviously a defense first coach and our offense has been what has held Rutgers back even in the very good years.
Also another point that has been made is that we have these very highly rated recruits and they just don’t seem to perform as freshmen where as at other schools the freshman are able to step right in and perform very well
Also another point that has been made is that we have these very highly rated recruits and they just don’t seem to perform as freshmen where as at other schools the freshman are able to step right in and perform very well
I'm sure everyone, including Vivian, would agree that she is a defense first coach.
I have always thought that the offense - at its best - isn't as bad as most folks think, but the execution often seems shaky, as one of the other posters described.
Freshmen never seem to do well in Vivian's system. Contribution by freshmen varies highly from school to school. I think the transcendent freshmen - Scaife, Pondexter, etc. did ok even at Rutgers.
A few things coming in a day later:
1. Indiana is a better team than RU right now. This is not exactly shocking--RU came in unranked, while Indiana is the #14 team in the country who returned their top 3 players from last year and their leading scorer--Grace Berger--has had a Tekia Mack like transformation from last year to this year. I know a lot of us thought this was a game at home that was ripe for the taking. But Indiana is Sweet 16 good and obviously learned a lot of lessons from losing to RU twice last season. RU is not that good right now.
2. At some point, the game is pretty simple--you have to put the ball in the basket. RU had 16 turnovers, which is not great, not awful (Indiana had 15). RU I thought rebounded well for most of the game, and outrebounded Indiana 39-33. But the team couldn't make an outside shot, which crowded the middle, and besides Arella and KK the last quarter, no one seemed confident enough to even take a shot. RU had a size advantage on Indiana, and it was obvious early on the team wanted to get the ball into Wallace. Unfortunately, none of the posts really showed up today, and Wallace's 4th foul was particularly dumb. In her press conference, CVS said there were too many times when players didn't know where they needed to be during plays. A part of that is certainly to blame on the coaching staff, a part of that is with a lot of young players.
3. I thought in general the refs were okay, though I agree with the person who said they seemed to switch it up at he half. Indiana shot 6 FTs in the first half, 22 in the second. I don't necessarily think the calls against RU were wrong (minus a couple), but RU actually outscored Indiana in the paint 34-26. Given how often Arella was getting clobbered both with and without the ball, I don't know why the FT differential was so different for so long.
4. The narrative some are pushing here that highly rated freshmen at RU play poorly while they play well elsewhere is...not true. Every program that gets highly ranked freshmen gets some who contribute right away, some who take longer to develop, and some who never really pan out. As just TWO examples from other teams, one of Indiana's best players--Ali Patberg--was ranked #13 in the nation coming out of HS and went to ND. She got injured her freshmen year, but her redshirt freshman year she played in 22 games and averaged 7.7mpg. Now she is obviously doing well for herself with the Hoosiers. Also, Megan Walker, who is looking like a solid bet to be a 1st team AA as a junior at UConn, was ranked #1 coming out of HS. Her freshmen year she averaged...15.5mpg and 5.8ppg.
5. What I think the above narrative is really about is that folks are disappointed with the play of Zippy and Maori so far. Zippy's play this year has confounded me thus far, since it seemed like after CC left last year, she really stepped up and was leading the team from the PG spot. She has been dealing with A LOT of injuries, which has really impacted her practice time, which might explain why she looks out of sync. But we will need her to step up. As for Maori, it's obvious that she's raw in a lot of ways, and CVS was not happy with her yesterday. But CVS has also raved about her work ethic and desire to get better, so i have high hopes for her (and posts traditionally take longer to develop than guards).
6. I believe Alexis Morris is super talented and will contribute to this team. But in her first two games, she has looked somewhat lost and hesitant. I am hopeful this gets resolved with more time and earned confidence.
7. Having watched the CVS presser, I will say she was disappointed, but not panicked. It's up to her and the coaches to get the team better, and it's up the players (not named Arella) to really step up and demand to be guarded.
1. Indiana is a better team than RU right now. This is not exactly shocking--RU came in unranked, while Indiana is the #14 team in the country who returned their top 3 players from last year and their leading scorer--Grace Berger--has had a Tekia Mack like transformation from last year to this year. I know a lot of us thought this was a game at home that was ripe for the taking. But Indiana is Sweet 16 good and obviously learned a lot of lessons from losing to RU twice last season. RU is not that good right now.
2. At some point, the game is pretty simple--you have to put the ball in the basket. RU had 16 turnovers, which is not great, not awful (Indiana had 15). RU I thought rebounded well for most of the game, and outrebounded Indiana 39-33. But the team couldn't make an outside shot, which crowded the middle, and besides Arella and KK the last quarter, no one seemed confident enough to even take a shot. RU had a size advantage on Indiana, and it was obvious early on the team wanted to get the ball into Wallace. Unfortunately, none of the posts really showed up today, and Wallace's 4th foul was particularly dumb. In her press conference, CVS said there were too many times when players didn't know where they needed to be during plays. A part of that is certainly to blame on the coaching staff, a part of that is with a lot of young players.
3. I thought in general the refs were okay, though I agree with the person who said they seemed to switch it up at he half. Indiana shot 6 FTs in the first half, 22 in the second. I don't necessarily think the calls against RU were wrong (minus a couple), but RU actually outscored Indiana in the paint 34-26. Given how often Arella was getting clobbered both with and without the ball, I don't know why the FT differential was so different for so long.
4. The narrative some are pushing here that highly rated freshmen at RU play poorly while they play well elsewhere is...not true. Every program that gets highly ranked freshmen gets some who contribute right away, some who take longer to develop, and some who never really pan out. As just TWO examples from other teams, one of Indiana's best players--Ali Patberg--was ranked #13 in the nation coming out of HS and went to ND. She got injured her freshmen year, but her redshirt freshman year she played in 22 games and averaged 7.7mpg. Now she is obviously doing well for herself with the Hoosiers. Also, Megan Walker, who is looking like a solid bet to be a 1st team AA as a junior at UConn, was ranked #1 coming out of HS. Her freshmen year she averaged...15.5mpg and 5.8ppg.
5. What I think the above narrative is really about is that folks are disappointed with the play of Zippy and Maori so far. Zippy's play this year has confounded me thus far, since it seemed like after CC left last year, she really stepped up and was leading the team from the PG spot. She has been dealing with A LOT of injuries, which has really impacted her practice time, which might explain why she looks out of sync. But we will need her to step up. As for Maori, it's obvious that she's raw in a lot of ways, and CVS was not happy with her yesterday. But CVS has also raved about her work ethic and desire to get better, so i have high hopes for her (and posts traditionally take longer to develop than guards).
6. I believe Alexis Morris is super talented and will contribute to this team. But in her first two games, she has looked somewhat lost and hesitant. I am hopeful this gets resolved with more time and earned confidence.
7. Having watched the CVS presser, I will say she was disappointed, but not panicked. It's up to her and the coaches to get the team better, and it's up the players (not named Arella) to really step up and demand to be guarded.
This is an excellent analysis!
I agree about the fouls. While most of those called against RU were warranted, there were some glaring no-calls on IU. For one, there was a play in the 3rd qtr where Jordan Wallace was completely taken out going up for a defensive rebound and they scored over her prone body. And some, not all, of the times Arella was taken out in the lane were fouls.
Turnovers were a problem esp. in the first half. The team seemed a little casual with the ball for some reason.
You're right about Maori. She's got a ton of up-side. She seemed tentative yesterday, choosing to pass it back out rather than shoot.
I think Morris shows great potential. She reminds me of Jacob Young on the men's side a little. You sit out for a year and have all this bottled up energy, wanting to make an immediate impact. Once she settles down, she'll be more consistent.
It's easy to pick out a few instances of freshmen who make a seamless transition from high school to college, but they are the exception rather than the norm. Stringer's first priority is defense and if you don't know the schemes or aren't up to that task, you're not ready to play. Simple as that. By next month, I'll bet the frosh will be miles ahead of where they are now.
The biggest factor in the game was IU's balanced scoring. The points came from every position, making it more challenging for the defense. All in all, it was a learning experience that will hopefully make us better.
I agree about the fouls. While most of those called against RU were warranted, there were some glaring no-calls on IU. For one, there was a play in the 3rd qtr where Jordan Wallace was completely taken out going up for a defensive rebound and they scored over her prone body. And some, not all, of the times Arella was taken out in the lane were fouls.
Turnovers were a problem esp. in the first half. The team seemed a little casual with the ball for some reason.
You're right about Maori. She's got a ton of up-side. She seemed tentative yesterday, choosing to pass it back out rather than shoot.
I think Morris shows great potential. She reminds me of Jacob Young on the men's side a little. You sit out for a year and have all this bottled up energy, wanting to make an immediate impact. Once she settles down, she'll be more consistent.
It's easy to pick out a few instances of freshmen who make a seamless transition from high school to college, but they are the exception rather than the norm. Stringer's first priority is defense and if you don't know the schemes or aren't up to that task, you're not ready to play. Simple as that. By next month, I'll bet the frosh will be miles ahead of where they are now.
The biggest factor in the game was IU's balanced scoring. The points came from every position, making it more challenging for the defense. All in all, it was a learning experience that will hopefully make us better.
I overheard Alexis speaking with a fan in the handshake line and she was very disappointed in her own performance in both games she has played. I think she is still adjusting to where she needs to be on the floor in the different plays they run, especially on defense. (CVS talks about this in her presser although she didn't single her out by name). I agree with you that she will be a major contributor once it clicks for her. Hopefully, that will be sooner rather than later.
She's in Israel handling personal obligations. Maybe something involving her military obligation, maybe something else.
Morris just became eligible. When is she supposed to get in games March?
Agree about Morris and of course she has been practicing with the team so its not like she is unfamiliar with them and CVS knows what she can do
Completely off topic to your point - but as someone who has not been at a game in the RAC in 8 years or so - "the handshake line"?
Here in Arizona the team circles the floor after the end of the game "stuff" (currently, banging a drum for each victory in the season), giving high 5s to the front row / floor seats (which include us) although there isn't any chit-chat beyond "good game". Still, I really like it, you feel connected. They also do a number of autograph sessions post game (3 or 4 a year) but I am not an autograph person.
That’s exactly the same thing the team does at the RAC After going down the court side seats, they line up at the foul line facing the band while the Alma Mater is played. Been going on for about 4-5 years now. Also, at least one player does autographs after each game.
Cool. I kind of like the idea of a player doing autographs each game, it would work at Arizona as the glossy roster sheet each game features a different player, and their answer to the "favorite food', movie, etc questions, some of which are also featured for that game on the video board. They could have that player signing the day's sheet, but they don't. They do a whole team thing when they do autographs.
