Something does stand out. Inability to utilize Cliff in the offense. He’s a complete non-factor at that end - hasn’t yet scored double digits in any BIG game. We have 4 years worth of data that says this is “different”. Against major conference teams, he’s only scored double digits once (11 vs. Seton Hall).
GAME 15 INDIANA: Hoosier Soup for the Soul
- Thread starter bac2therac
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Something does stand out. Inability to utilize Cliff in the offense. He’s a complete non-factor at that end - hasn’t yet scored double digits in any BIG game. We have 4 years worth of data that says this is “different”. Against major conference teams, he’s only scored double digits once (11 vs. Seton Hall).
One big change is not having guards who get him the ball.
His "% Assisted" the last 4 years:
2023-24: 64.9
2022-23: 70.4
2021-22: 81.4
2020-21: 88.9
Yeah - and the lower 2022-23 number relative to 2021-22 is deceiving being that his FT attempts shot up from 98 to 144. He’s not even close to on pace to match 2021-22 FT attempt totals
It’s a completely different team. No Cam, Caleb or Paul. Mag just came back.
The pieces are decidedly NOT the same last year as this year.
The biggest changes we have are a) guard size, b) guard assist/tov ratio, c) guard scoring efficiency.
We largely have the same frontcourt as last year.... Hyatt, Mag, and Omoruyi backed up by Woolf/Palmquist. There is virtually no difference at the 4/5 spots except for times we went smaller and McConnell played the 4.
The changes have come in the backcourt, where we've sacrificed a lot of size and performance.
Our ppg are flat from last year to this year against weaker competition, but it's required more possessions to get there (our points per possession are down). Our ORtg last year was 102.6 (221st) and this year it's been 97.9 (320th).... and that's not adjusting for level of competition, as last year includes the full B1G slate and this year is mostly OOC teams so far.
Omoruyi's getting 3 fewer attempts per game, because our guards aren't getting him the ball.
Thanks for posting these numbers. It just confirms how important a role Mulcahy played running our offense.
there is clearly more "my shot" on this team then sharing the rock. The lack of ball movement and passing in search of offense makes my head hurt especially when you don't have the shooters.
Shots at the buzzer are clutch.
Shots that entirely change the momentum of a game or clutch.
Shots that give you the lead at the half are clutch.
Shots that give you a lead you never lose are clutch.
Shots that put a dagger into the heart of another team are clutch.
Shots that make Indiana think here we go again we’re not going to beat Rutgers at the RAC are clutch.
Shot that make Rutgers think here we go again we are going to beat Indiana again are clutch.
Shots that allow a player to get open and up court in about three seconds are clutch.
Shots that beat Stonehill to win the game and avoid the worst upset in Rutgers history are clutch.
I think you’re overstating Simpson’s contributions. I’m not a Simpson hater, and I certainly like his chutzpah and willingness to take the big shot, but he’s an inefficient, high-volume guard who rarely shoots at a good percentage. But we need him to play 25-30 minutes because of the limitations of the rest of the team. I’m fine with that.
But your negativity toward JMike is perplexing. I think you’re just trying to compare and contrast Simpson and JMike, but in doing so, I think you’re understating JMike’s contributions.
Yes, early on, he was missing a lot at the rim, and his FT shooting was abysmal. But before last night’s 0 assists and 4 TO performance, he had been leading the team in assist to turnover ratio. He really started to play well in the games he started:
SHU — 11 points on 4-8 shooting, 6 assists, 2 rebounds, 2 TOs, 1 steal, 1 block
LIU - 12 points on 5-11 shooting, 4 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals, 0 TOs
Miss State - he got injured during this game (bone bruise) and was not effective. 4 points, 2 assists, 1 rebound, 1 TO
Stonehill - DNP due to injury
OSU - only played 12 minutes off the bench as he was working back from injury. 0 points, 1 TO.
Iowa - played 24 minutes off the bench, and had 10 points on 4-12 shooting, 5 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, and 3 TOs.
Indiana - played 21 minutes off the bench and had 10 points on 4-9 shooting (only Austin’s 5-9 was better), 6 rebounds, 1 steal, 0 assists, and 4 TOs.
So, from a true freshman, after he got his sea legs in the first six weeks, he scores 11, 12, 10, and 10 in games in which he wasn’t injured, on 17-40 from the field (42.5%), 12 assists, and 9 TOs.
It’s a shame he got injured, as he was really making progress, but he seems to be hitting his stride again. But, yeah, I’d like to see him value the ball a little more.
The answer is very sinple. It comes down to 2 things
1. We are averaging 4 more possessions per game
2. We are going to play 17 straight B1G games. No more LIU or Howard out there
Our adjusted offensive efficiency is 292nd right now. Last year we were 151st
Here's a good illustration of the ball not being distributed where it needs to be:
Griffiths: 15.4 FGA per 40 min
Omoruyi: 11.1 FGA per 40 min
Fernandes: 11.0 FGA per 40 min
Why is Omoruyi only getting up 11 shots per 40 min? That's 5th in our rotation.
He can't score if he's not getting the ball. He's even getting slightly more ORB/40min this year than last.
Griffiths: 15.4 FGA per 40 min
Omoruyi: 11.1 FGA per 40 min
Fernandes: 11.0 FGA per 40 min
Why is Omoruyi only getting up 11 shots per 40 min? That's 5th in our rotation.
He can't score if he's not getting the ball. He's even getting slightly more ORB/40min this year than last.
do not get me wrong, Indiana was awful. Rutgers in Big 10 play basically played just one good half in 6 prior quarters. While our play was certainly not good enough to beat most Big 10 teams it was good enough to beat a bad Indiana team. To me that is some bright light. I do not expect us suddenly to contend for post season but I felt this was important for the teams psyche to get a win like this. My expectations are to try and get as much experience as possible and preserve our dignity. Last night was a step in the right direction for the latter. We know there are issues. For me personally I think MOST are not fixable this season. Our offense will continue to struggle because the talent is not there and they cannot shoot. I do like the fact that RU did fight and scrap and play with some hunger. Rutgers is not very good but there is no reason they cannot play hard each half.
Gavin just is totally lost. Talent is obviously there. We can hope for a case like JY where he was dreadfully lost for half the season and all of a sudden looked like the second coming.Perhaps learning by watching might be the best tonic for Gavin but its frightening that Oskar got more minutes than him. I just do not think Gavin has the teammates that are conducive to developing his game. That is unfortunate
One interesting tidbit conparing 2023 to 2024 NCAA…..now conference play may bring these closer….
2023 average team scored 1.041 on 67.1 possessions
2024 1.049 on 69 possessions
Scoring is up
2023 average team scored 1.041 on 67.1 possessions
2024 1.049 on 69 possessions
Scoring is up
But on more possessions... which means the other team gets more possessions, too.
BAC…..you are touching on something that has become very obvious to me. I missed Stonehill and did go to MSU but my seats werent as good. Last time i saw this team in person ipclose was 12-17 vs LIU
I know the word chemistry is overused and often cones out in losses. A lot of players playing without emotion. Doesnt seem like the players really like each other (as a whole). Cliff isnt the worlds best teammate. Derek is trying to lead but i get tbe sense he lacks the respect needed. Mag does his job, but doesnt mesh.
No joking in lineup lines, just the obligatory hand slaps. No Agee corner.
The way I see it the baton that started with Geo and passed along has been dropped. My hope is sommerville, dortch and grant become the foundation of the program. I see a hard reset next year with Ace and Dylan keeping us competitive. The hope is the 3 are the building blocks to Pike 2.0. Pike 1.0 ended when Cam and Paul left.
I know the word chemistry is overused and often cones out in losses. A lot of players playing without emotion. Doesnt seem like the players really like each other (as a whole). Cliff isnt the worlds best teammate. Derek is trying to lead but i get tbe sense he lacks the respect needed. Mag does his job, but doesnt mesh.
No joking in lineup lines, just the obligatory hand slaps. No Agee corner.
The way I see it the baton that started with Geo and passed along has been dropped. My hope is sommerville, dortch and grant become the foundation of the program. I see a hard reset next year with Ace and Dylan keeping us competitive. The hope is the 3 are the building blocks to Pike 2.0. Pike 1.0 ended when Cam and Paul left.
The wow is even more staggering when you realize that the trend down in past years is mostly explained by a trend up in FT attempts (a drastic one as he’s took 47% more FTs in 2022-23 than the prior season). Teams were fouling him underneath to prevent easy baskets off of passes where he had established position.
He took 98 FTs in 2021-22. 144 in 2022-23. He’s taken 33 FTs through 15 games which puts him on pace for only about 75 attempts this year (and that’s not even accounting for easier competition thus far with a heavily weighted cupcake OOC).
I'll ask the question I have asked in other threads earlier this season....what have you seen from last year in February and March and into November and December this year, that gives you confidence that giving more touches to Cliff, will result in more productive possessions??
I think we all watched November and December RU games, when they gave A LOT of possessions to Cliff.....did they result in good offense for RU?? At some point, when should the guards believe that Cliff will properly get position, pass it back out if he doesn't, and keep working to get better position??
I think it's lazy to say the guards don't get Cliff the ball, when Cliff has to actually produce, so the team has trust and belief he will score or make the right play/pass.
If you see that happening, then we are watching two drastically different games or teams.
Hawk's argument seems to be that it doesn't matter that last year the guards were clearly better passers and shooters bc this year's guards are quicker and faster. Doesn’t matter how little they can set people up for buckets or how poorly they shoot. Just doesn't matter. They are faster so they are better
Many posts in this thread outlining the decline in guard play this season with statistics to back it up
Many posts in this thread outlining the decline in guard play this season with statistics to back it up
So what changed? We have a massive sample size worth of data from last seasons that says Cliff is a consistent double digit scorer even against top talent . Either Cliff just “got worse” or the change has to be attributed to the different surrounding cast.
We all know what changed. Hawk just doesn't want to admit it. Paul was good for Cliff. It's not debatable at this point that Cliff's decreased production is directly related to Paul's absence
The problem is Hawk just wants us to play faster so he is blinded to anything that points to us playing worse with faster guards
Guess what... I wanted faster guards too. I can still recognize that the guard play has been much worse this season and accept that reality
Cliff clearly doesn't score based on his shooting ability. If he isn't getting the ball in the low post, he's simply not scoring with any consistency.
agree and thats why talk of a European trip bonding blah blah blah really do not need mean much. I see a bunch of players that generally are looking to get theirs. I do not know if its a reflection of the NIL or what. There is certainly a personality void with Caleb, Paul and even Cam (just one year) leaving. I cannot fault players who do not have the leadership traits needed (Hyatt). You cannot force leadership, it has to come naturally. Unfortunately I think this year is just a waiting year and everyone knows it. Immediately Ace and Dylan will be the leaders and that is just that
This is meaningless - apples and oranges because of the competition gap. And also because the points we score in the last 5 minutes of a game Iowa is winning by 17 to get to 77 points aren’t close to as meaningful as the points scored at the end of (for example) a 58-57 win over Wisconsin. Wasn’t much garbage time pile on last year from what I recall.
Agree to disagree. I think over emphasizing JMikes contribution and under estimating Simpsons. Simpson is a true Sophomore and last year as a true freshman basically took over and won the Indiana game and one of the PSU games.
Simpson is basically playing point guard and shooting guard and he’s not getting much love.
It’s the negativity to Simpson I find perplexing.
Simpson literally won the Stonehill game for us. His all around numbers were great. He gets ripped for poor shooting for a team in which nobody shoots well. Carino sadly as it pains me was right.
OSU numbers were very impressive. Great all around game. Crickets.
Even last night with a bad shooting he made almost half court shot that basically won the game. Simpson still managed 10 points and his foul shooting saved the game at the end. Crickets. BAC raves about a random Davis three. There was no more important shot than Simpson’s at the half Luck or not. Even getting to the point to take that shot was impressive.
Davis’ foul shooting is the worst on the team. It’s a problem. Simpson will probably be the best. He stymied any comeback with nice 5-7 shooting from the line and that wasn’t even his best effort.
Davis 4-9 isn’t all that great when the missed shots are layups. Missing three games and then playing 21 minutes with no assists and four turnovers is a problem. Shooting 50% from the line is a problem. He hasn’t improved on the line.
Simpson shoots 2-13 and gets ripped. Simpson also gets fair share of steals and rebounds and even last night added three assists. His complete games are overlooked.
But back to back games in which Davis shoots 4-12 and then no assists and four turnovers in 21 minutes means he’s improving? What am I missing?
Isn’t Davis also a high volume shooter too. 9 shots in 21 minutes? 4-12 against Iowa? He almost lead the team in shots taken. So can live with Simpson for shots taken seems like subtle criticism but Davis shooting at similar rate is perfectly fine?
I don’t like the double standards. Don’t think Simpson getting enough credit. He’s only a sophomore. Can’t teach speed.
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I've long known we are watching two drastically different games, lol
Omoruyi gets his offense within 5 feet of the rim - I don't think we'd disagree on that. When he takes longer shots, people hold their breath - he's not a three point shooter, and he's not a mid-range guy. He's best when he's close to the basket.
Passing him the ball 15 feet from the basket and letting him "go to work" has never been his game - and I don't see it suddenly becoming his game either. He's never had an especially strong "back to the basket" skillset. I think we can agree on that, too. Last year, they tried to give him more of these opportunities (and gave him more of a green light from the arc) - and they weren't very successful, and his overall FG% went down from previous years.
Where he's at his best is within the paint under the basket - generally if he gets a touch there, good things have happened for us. In prior years, that has generally been lobs for alley-oops, passes over the defense that he gathers and dunks, offensive rebound putbacks, and interior dishes that he gathers and dunks.
Here's where we start to differ, and I'm keeping the names of players out of this - it's a role thing, not an individual player thing.
He's been seeing less of those this year, and that's not helping. Our guards have not been as good at finding him curling to the rim for alley-oop attempts, they haven't been accurate in lobbing over the defense to him at the baseline, they haven't made good use of the pick and roll, and interior passing has been almost nonexistent.
Our guards in the last few years were much better at getting to the post with a plan - at drawing the big defender off of Omoruyi, and slipping him the ball - or taking the shot if the big stayed home. They had the size to operate in the post, the skill to force defenses to react and to recognize how that opens up teammates, and the chemistry/connectedness that everyone was on the same page.
That's been lacking this year. Our guards play faster, are better off the dribble, and are better at getting penetration... but they are frequently only looking for their own shot (either forced at the rim or pulling up early), are out of control, or don't have a plan for what to do with the ball if the big defender slides over. They don't have the size for a post game, but they also haven't shown the court awareness yet to make the trees pay for closing in on their drives.
The result is fewer paint touches for Omoruyi, lower FG% from the guards, and lower per-possession scoring.
So that means the PPG from last year to this year is better.....you obviously should know that 3 weeks ago, RU shot 72 more FTs game over game from last year to this year??
Does that land in your efficiency metrics LMAO.....clearly still not watching basketball.
Why did RU win by almost 10 last night??? Because the players you refuse to acknowledge are producing scoring opportunities AND producing more FT attempts, offsets whatever nonsensical metrics you get parroting. And that's with shooting percentages and shots created that are just being missed. Why is that not good?? My viewpoint is that RU is actually getting BETTER shot attempts this year vs last year.
And ironically I have a frosh and sophomore mixed in comparison to 2 seniors and that's the best you can come up with?? I think getting to the line and scoring points actually adds up to scoring points.....you clearly don't like or value that aspect and feel not getting to the line, worked better last year......but there's literally no difference in PPG from 1 year to the next......HMMM.....
Our offesne is considerably worse. If we are trying to maximize your PPG we are jacking up shots early in possessions so we have more chances to score more and cancelling a bunch of B1G games so we can maintain our current ration of bad teams to good teams.
My numbers arent made up. They actually match my eyeballs. I am not one to source announcers of games, but they all are saying the same thing. Our guards arent passing
Shots do not become clutch just because they occur before any buzzer. End of 1st half shots are not clutch.
His shot at the end of the Stonehill game was clutch, but we perhaps wouldn’t have suffered the embarrassment of needing a clutch shot to defeat Stonehill if he had been better than 3 for 14 before that shot.
If you score 68.3 ppg on 69 possessions vs. 68.4 ppg on 67 possessions... vs a lower level of competition... your offense is worse. Those extra possessions work out to more points for your opponent, too... as our ppg allowed has gone from 61.1 to 63.7.
Even if you want to just go by PPG, we were averaging 71.9/game through the first 15 games last year.
We won by 9 last night in a game where Indiana shot 4/15 from the charity stripe. Had they shot their average, it would have been a one possession game.... even after they lost their starting PG with 13 minutes left in the game.
And we're going to FTs now? We've made 22 more FTs through 15 games vs. last year, and our opponents have made 26 more FTs in that same span.
Someone please explain to Hawk the difference between PPG and offensive efficiency
We are worse this year .949 (291st) vs 1.003 (189th)
Points/Game 68.3 (#268)
Assists/Game 11.9 (#242)
Effective FG %44.1% (#344)
Free Throw %66.7% (#308)
Three Point %28.6% (#332)
Two Point %44.7% (#332)
Shooting %39.2% (#339)
Shooting Efficiency0.956 (#343)
FGM/Game23.7 (#288)
3PM/Game5.9 (#295)
3PA/Game20.7 (#232)
Yes the guards are drawing more FTs. That is a good thing
The fact that there’s a guy who writes this much about basketball and is somehow trying to argue our offense isn’t worse this year so far kind of boggles my mind.
Like if you want to argue about WHY that is, fine, but the numbers are right there staring you in the face. And yes, I fully accept we weren’t good at offense last year but now we are EVEN WORSE.
Like if you want to argue about WHY that is, fine, but the numbers are right there staring you in the face. And yes, I fully accept we weren’t good at offense last year but now we are EVEN WORSE.
I got to wondering about this with the coaches too. They were on the road so so so much for Dylan (and others) and there are only so many hours in a day so I've got to imagine they didn't spend as much time thinking about this year's team and how everything would mesh, coming up with game plans, etc.
You cant force leadership, it comes naturally. YES
Just isn’t happening.
Maybe there is a player that leads by example, gets along with everyone and is respected that emerges.
You would hope it is Mag or Cliff, but that ship has sailed.
Derek is trying but it is forced
Oskar tries but in the end he is Oskar
Davis is a freshman
Austin showed some real emotion last night….we’ll see.
Just isn’t happening.
Maybe there is a player that leads by example, gets along with everyone and is respected that emerges.
You would hope it is Mag or Cliff, but that ship has sailed.
Derek is trying but it is forced
Oskar tries but in the end he is Oskar
Davis is a freshman
Austin showed some real emotion last night….we’ll see.
I think shots at end of shot clock and end of half if you make them are indeed clutch. Shots that change or gain momentum IMHO are indeed clutch. For a team like RU which has struggled I think that was as clutch a shot as any.
Clutch shots have to occur in high leverage situations.
Shot against Stonehill - win prob moves from 27.8 to 82.5 - clutch
Shot against Indiana - win prob moves from 67.8 to 76.5 - nice to have but not high leverage
Shot against Stonehill - win prob moves from 27.8 to 82.5 - clutch
Shot against Indiana - win prob moves from 67.8 to 76.5 - nice to have but not high leverage
Even if they shot 10-15 we would have won.
Also, something has to be said about the way we tire out our opponents, making it harder to sink FTs. Dealing with our defense and chasing our guards around has to take its toll.
Look at a replay and see how exhausted Galloway was when he stepped to the line, still trying to catch a breath. I said to my wife, “he looks completely rung out,” and sure enough he missed both free throws.
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