NJ Transit Trains to NYC
- Thread starter rutgersdave
- Start date
Making the commute easier keeps jobs in NY. A more difficult commute could lead to companies relocating out of NY.
That is why NY benefits. Your point assumes that jobs will not move if the status quo does not change. That is the point we disagree on.
NY benefits plenty from better mass transit.
No, my point was that jobs staying in NYC IS THE STATUS QUO for the purposes of this discussion.
I've said the three times - assuming the jobs stay in NYC, then there is zero effect on NYC.
And I think you'd have a really hard time proving that NJ commuting challenges would cause major employers to move to NJ. Doing so would cause them to lose all their employees from Long Island and Westchester.
Higher property values should not necessarily lead to higher property taxes, but an increase in population that leads to an increase in housing units might.
Property tax rates are a function of the municipal, school and county budgets. Once a budget the amount is divided by the assessed value of all properties and the tax rate is calculated.
A rise in property values does not change the total municipal tax revenue needed. It might change the county tax if one town sees an increase versus other towns in the same county (for example, if values rise in Millburn due to an increase in demand for houses along the train line, Livingston may not see the same increase). However if additional population is added to the town, the budgets may need to be increased.
Income tax and sales tax revenue are directly affected by the location of jobs so if better train service keeps jobs in Ny than that state benefits.
I still think that argument lacks foundation. The train service sucks now, people complain endlessly, but the only exodus you're seeing from NYC to NJ has been due to ridiculous multi-billion dollar tax incentives.
Nobody is going to move their operations from NYC to NJ just because the NJ employees have to spend an hour and a half on the train. Nobody gives a shit.
much of the exodus from NYC to NJ is to Jersey City and not the suburban towns. Many NYC based companies don't want to move to NJ because:
- Many employees may live in the outer boroughs of the city, LI, CT, and Westchester. Moving to NJ alienates those employees.
- Many companies want a NYC address for customer and vendor purposes
- Many companies like NYC addresses for meetings externally with clients / competitors
NJ Transit needs to upgrade the riding experience with better on time service, more trains, and amenities. There is no reason why the trains can't have wifi, some kind of recorded / live tv, and other amenities.
Most people I know that work in NYC over the age of 35 do so because they can't earn the same kind of money at a similar job in NJ (closer to home). if you look at some of the big companies with NJ and NYC locations (ie. Citigroup, JP Morgan, AIG, Met Life, etc...) you top out with some of the NJ jobs where you need to commute to NYC for the higher up jobs. 2nd and maybe 3rd level managers may be in NJ but to become a high middle level manager just below the "C" levels probably requires you to be in NYC.
- Many employees may live in the outer boroughs of the city, LI, CT, and Westchester. Moving to NJ alienates those employees.
- Many companies want a NYC address for customer and vendor purposes
- Many companies like NYC addresses for meetings externally with clients / competitors
NJ Transit needs to upgrade the riding experience with better on time service, more trains, and amenities. There is no reason why the trains can't have wifi, some kind of recorded / live tv, and other amenities.
Most people I know that work in NYC over the age of 35 do so because they can't earn the same kind of money at a similar job in NJ (closer to home). if you look at some of the big companies with NJ and NYC locations (ie. Citigroup, JP Morgan, AIG, Met Life, etc...) you top out with some of the NJ jobs where you need to commute to NYC for the higher up jobs. 2nd and maybe 3rd level managers may be in NJ but to become a high middle level manager just below the "C" levels probably requires you to be in NYC.
I made the move to NYC for a job 20 years ago because the salary negotiation amounted to "we'll double what you're making now".
In the 12 years that I commuted daily, I spent the first 6 on the train and decided that it sucked. From my house to the nearest station (Matawan) is 30 minutes. The trains are crowded, noisy and inconsistent. I spent the last 6 years taking the bus from Rt 130 in Cranbury, which is 15 minutes from my house and dropped me off a block from my office. In that time I was surprised to discover that schedule-wise, buses into Manhattan are actually more reliable than NJT. Also they're quieter, more comfortable and there's more hot chicks.
I don't go into the city often anymore, but when I do I drive to Jersey City (nominally 45 minutes) and take the PATH from Grove St. If I have to go downtown it's less than an hour each way. Midtown is another 15 minutes.
In the 12 years that I commuted daily, I spent the first 6 on the train and decided that it sucked. From my house to the nearest station (Matawan) is 30 minutes. The trains are crowded, noisy and inconsistent. I spent the last 6 years taking the bus from Rt 130 in Cranbury, which is 15 minutes from my house and dropped me off a block from my office. In that time I was surprised to discover that schedule-wise, buses into Manhattan are actually more reliable than NJT. Also they're quieter, more comfortable and there's more hot chicks.
I don't go into the city often anymore, but when I do I drive to Jersey City (nominally 45 minutes) and take the PATH from Grove St. If I have to go downtown it's less than an hour each way. Midtown is another 15 minutes.
Per the NJ Division of taxation:
The General Tax Rate is a multiplier for use in determining the amount of tax levied upon each property. It is expressed as $1 per $100 of taxable assessed value.
This rate is used to compute the tax bill.
Example General Tax Rate:
Assessed Value 150,000
x General Tax Rate
.03758
Tax Bill 5,637
http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/lpt/taxrate.shtml
There is a formula for calculating property tax based on the assessed value of the property.
Right. I think most people know that. What does it have to do with the post you quoted?
Nor I.
The budget comes first than the tax rate follows. That is why when big commercial properties in a town protest their valuation and get it decreased, everyone else's taxes go up.
I'm really interested in the argument that it was a good idea to turn down several billion dollars towards the tunnel because New Jersey might have been responsible for overruns. (I won't reprise the discussion in a long-ago thread about whether there would have been significant overruns.)
I get that the theory was that the state would have been able to negotiate a better deal later. The problem, though, is that it's now close to 6 years later, costs have gone up - as they always will - and those billions of dollars no longer are available. So, in the end, if there's going to be a tunnel (and I sure hope there will be), it will cost New Jersey more than it would have in 2010, and be in place many years later. That's pretty much a lose-lose. And, really, the stimulus package was a one-time thing, hopefully not to be repeated for decades, so I don't know why anyone thought there would be more money later.
I get that the theory was that the state would have been able to negotiate a better deal later. The problem, though, is that it's now close to 6 years later, costs have gone up - as they always will - and those billions of dollars no longer are available. So, in the end, if there's going to be a tunnel (and I sure hope there will be), it will cost New Jersey more than it would have in 2010, and be in place many years later. That's pretty much a lose-lose. And, really, the stimulus package was a one-time thing, hopefully not to be repeated for decades, so I don't know why anyone thought there would be more money later.
What most people aside from 4Real are missing is this...
Christie claimed he would make the parties come to a "fair" agreement as President (god forbid he ever get there) but yet made not even a cursory attempt as governor.
Even assuming the project was unfair, he made no counter offer, no counter proposal, nothing. Despite the fact that the tunnels are in awful shape and thousands depend on them. He just wanted poliitcal points among the groups that want no spending on anything but military adventures.
Yet, he took that money- and didn't save it- but ran off with it, illegally, and threw it at the Pulaski Skyway, which is now the subject of multiple federal investigations.
And who is paying for that? And who is going to pay when the tunnels get shut down? And who is paying the fare increase in October? The same folks spending millions on defending Christie from all of these investigations, the same ones paying for his $25 million sham election to avoid Booker, and the same people who won't have pensions while RU tuition skyrockets.
The NJ taxpayer, enemy #1 of Christie.
He is indefensible yet goes to Iowa. Oh sure, he'd have gotten a better deal from the Ayatollah but couldn't handle big bad Bloomberg and David Paterson. How is anyone stupid enough to believe anything he says?
Christie claimed he would make the parties come to a "fair" agreement as President (god forbid he ever get there) but yet made not even a cursory attempt as governor.
Even assuming the project was unfair, he made no counter offer, no counter proposal, nothing. Despite the fact that the tunnels are in awful shape and thousands depend on them. He just wanted poliitcal points among the groups that want no spending on anything but military adventures.
Yet, he took that money- and didn't save it- but ran off with it, illegally, and threw it at the Pulaski Skyway, which is now the subject of multiple federal investigations.
And who is paying for that? And who is going to pay when the tunnels get shut down? And who is paying the fare increase in October? The same folks spending millions on defending Christie from all of these investigations, the same ones paying for his $25 million sham election to avoid Booker, and the same people who won't have pensions while RU tuition skyrockets.
The NJ taxpayer, enemy #1 of Christie.
He is indefensible yet goes to Iowa. Oh sure, he'd have gotten a better deal from the Ayatollah but couldn't handle big bad Bloomberg and David Paterson. How is anyone stupid enough to believe anything he says?
http://www.northjersey.com/news/fed...cuomo-to-discuss-new-transit-tunnel-1.1381739
Transit Tunnel Update
Transit Tunnel Update
Good, let's move forward. IMO the only feasible way for this project of this magnitude in an already expensive area to be properly funded and completed in a timely fashion would be for the feds, NY/NJ, and Amtrak/NJTransit to all work together. Gateway would not only incorporate existing infrastructure repairs necessitated by age/Sandy, but would also send the tunnels into the Penn Station ancillary (which is where they should have been routed to in the first place).
My objection to the ARC project was that it was a boon to North Jersey politicos family, friends and developers who own properties along the route through Bergen County.
The shore and central jersey and west jersey should be on the list for improved commuting far more than the Bergenites.
The shore and central jersey and west jersey should be on the list for improved commuting far more than the Bergenites.
As many posters here seem to rarely read an entire thread, much less any links, before feeling compelled to offer their opinions, I reluctantly offer some followup reading if you really want to know.
As to " And no clue why they own the World Trade Center site?" Basically the above is correct. As it happens an RU Prof wrote if not "the" book on the subject, one of the key ones:
Angus Kress Gillespie Twin Towers: The Life of New York City's World Trade Center.
New York business interests lead by David Rockefeller of Chase Manhattan Bank were concerned that lower Manhattan was losing it's dominance as a business center and the port was going to lose trade to other east coast competitors. This was the 1960's - moon shot time - think big. Their solution was to be a trade center that would invigorate the office market and be a place for all the various businesses involved in the shipping and trading of goods to congregate.
Originally the basic deal was as outlined above. The idea was to put the Trade Center on the East River near what is now South Street Seaport. For NY political reasons that didn't happen and they displaced a neighborhood know as Radio Row for the electronics retailers and workshops there. This was on the Hudson. When the NJ Governor, who was doubtful about the huge amount of PA resources going to the office complex heard about the relocation, his reaction was "Well, at least we'll be able to see the f*&$ing thing."
By the time the WTC was built it was clear that original idea was at best a pipe dream. Now it was the 1970s- losing Vietnam war, stagflation. Eventually the building went from proto-modern trading bazaar to another expensive Manhattan office complex.
I don't know if lots of people understand how much bigger the NY business market is than other places. Pre-9/11 I helped my firm put together some numbers for the Mayors office. Don't know the current number, but back then they said Mid-town Manhattan was the largest central business district by economic activity in the country. Downtown Manhattan/the Financial District, on it's own, was number 3.
If you want a broader history of the Port Authority see Jameson Doig's, a Princeton history prof, Empire on the Hudson
Last edited:
Access to Grand Central wasn't even the biggest problem. The biggest problem with ARC by the time Christie came to office was that the new 2-track tunnel was only going to link to the Penn Station annex under 34th Street. It was a Corzine move that saved a minimal amount of money in a very boneheaded way. If Christie weren't an even bigger bonehead he would have just reversed that change so there was redundancy that was badly needed even then.
Realistically we could use both a 7 train extension from Chelsea to Hoboken, Jersey City Heights and Secaucus and the ARC/Gateway tunnels and station expansion. A cheaper and still viable option which some have proposed is build out ARC/Gateway but extend the 7 to Penn Station essentially loop it back in along 31st Street to between 7th and 8th Avenues. This finally gives a one-seat ride from Penn to Grand Central and makes it much easier for west-of-Hudson commuters to reach East Midtown jobs. Obviously doing both to NJ would add the needed capacity for many generations to come.
Fair enough. The property tax point was a bit of a stretch. But the point still stands that NY has little motivation to invest in a project which will mostly benefit NJ. Living in Westchester, Long Island, and CT are substitutes for living in NJ.
Extending the 7 train to secaucus is vaporware at this point because there is no money to fund such an undertaking. with whats happened since bloomberg threw out the idea, i don't think NY was ever serious about the proposal. If we can just get those two tunnels built within the next ten years, it will be fantastic. I'm counting on our two senators to deliver.
realistically you need:
4 NJ transit tracks across the river that are not shared with Amtrak. This way if a train gets halted for mechanical issues you have a 2nd track to use.
Optimally you can have:
2 to 4 Amtrak tracks across the river
4 NJ Transit tracks across the river
2 to 4 subway tracks across the river
If you are going to build a new tunnel do it right with the proper infrastructure to last 100+ years.
At the same time maybe rework the Outerbridge so that trains can travel on it which would link the Staten Island train line with NJ Transit for access to the shore and Penn Station. In addition, it may work out better for NJ shore area commuters working in downtown NY to take a train through SI to the ferry. Maybe it is just a line from Long Branch to the ferry or even from Perth Amboy / South Amboy to the ferry. A 1 seat ride would be a similar train ride that goes on an upgraded Verrazano bridge to downtown NYC.
These ideas above are probably 20-30 billion dollars in improvements
4 NJ transit tracks across the river that are not shared with Amtrak. This way if a train gets halted for mechanical issues you have a 2nd track to use.
Optimally you can have:
2 to 4 Amtrak tracks across the river
4 NJ Transit tracks across the river
2 to 4 subway tracks across the river
If you are going to build a new tunnel do it right with the proper infrastructure to last 100+ years.
At the same time maybe rework the Outerbridge so that trains can travel on it which would link the Staten Island train line with NJ Transit for access to the shore and Penn Station. In addition, it may work out better for NJ shore area commuters working in downtown NY to take a train through SI to the ferry. Maybe it is just a line from Long Branch to the ferry or even from Perth Amboy / South Amboy to the ferry. A 1 seat ride would be a similar train ride that goes on an upgraded Verrazano bridge to downtown NYC.
These ideas above are probably 20-30 billion dollars in improvements
Last edited:
Your post is definitely on the ideal side, but here are a few thoughts:
- 4 combined Amtrak/NJ Transit tracks are an absolute necessity at this point, and construction of new ones should get done sooner rather than later before the existing tunnels start to have problems that could cause brief/permanent closure. No way you'll ever get 2 NJTransit-only tunnels across the Hudson, let alone 4.
- PATH trains already act as trans-Hudson subways for Jersey City/Hoboken/Newark <-> midtown/downtown Manhattan. I'd definitely support an extension of the 7-line from its new terminus at 34th Street to Secaucus to relieve Lincoln Tunnel and existing Penn rail tunnel traffic.
- Bridge modifications to support incredibly high loading of trains are extremely expensive/time-consuming, and just not worth it for bridges that would need replacement within a certain timeframe (Outerbridge) or have structural/weather exposure issues already (Verrazano). For example, the Manhattan Bridge has required heavy maintenance and track closings several times over its lifespan due to structural fatigue from constant subway trains. One would have been better off designing the new Goethals Bridge replacement to handle trains or building an NJ <-> Staten Island tunnel to get central/south NJ commuters to the S.I. ferry. Or better yet, there's an existing Arthur Kill lift bridge next to the Goethals currently utilized by garbage trains, but it's only one track and may be subject to lowering restrictions based on nearby port traffic requirements.
-Your ideas altogether would cost a minimum of $50 billion, or more likely $75-100 billion once all is said and done IMO.
Yes, that is a likely to happen as the West Side Stadium for the Jets that Bloomberg was sure would go in.
Why? You already have frequent rail access to Midtown without having to make connections.
This has been quite an interesting thread with a great deal of information. As a New Yorker I concur with the concept that there is not a great deal of incentive for either NYC or NY State to improve rail service into NYC from New Jersey. From a pure financial perspective the impact of NJ commuters pales in comparison to the impact of the outer boroughs, Westchester, Long Island, and Connecticut. Although it has happened quietly, New York State and NYC have collaborated extremely well in incentivizing businesses that desire to move back office operations out of NYC. Accordingly, it is not in the interests of NYC to improve train service and access from NJ. If it happens at little or no cost to NYC - great. Short of that there is little appetite for such projects.
Although as a New Yorker I understand that thought process, I do believe it is somewhat short sighted. Substantially improving infrastructure on a regional basis would pay dividends for everyone. So while I believe more financing for such NJ centric projects should be borne primarily by NJ, I also believe NY State, NYC, and the federal government should also be contributing in a substantial manner to make such projects happen.
As a born an bred Jersey guy (though I worked in the financial district for a while) I never understood the folks in NJ that could not comprehend the importance of proximity to Manhattan (or Center City if you are in the South). Even if they personally never go into the big city, (and I am also surprised by the number that fit that description) the fact that their home is valuable or their town is a desirable location for business is hugely tied to their access these major business hubs. Take any really nice suburb in New Jersey, whether Moorestown or Morristown, and plunk it in the middle of fly over country and it dries up and blows away like so many small southern and mid-western towns with no economic magnet to draw people in.
Well said. Many of the NJ large businesses that don't have NYC / Philly offices do depend to some degree on NYC for clients, resources, and overall business.
Below is a NJ.com list of top 15 largest employers in NJ.
http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/2013/11/the_15_largest_employers_in_ne.html
While some have city operations many are dependent on NYC for some things.
- United Airlines - Newark is basically another NYC airport. It is closer to Times Square than JFK or LaGuardia.
- UPS - While they have some operations in NYC they have a lot of distribution in NJ. Being close to Newark airport helps plus being on the NJ side allows them to distribute to NYC, NJ, and some areas west.
- Verizon - while they have large NJ operations they are still a big presence in NYC.
- BOA / Merrill Lynch - was originally mostly NYC based but have operations in Jersey City and a huge campus in Hopewell. Many operations and tech jobs are in NJ while the trading, investment banking, and leadership are in NYC.
- While not on the list companies like Citigroup, AIG, Met Life, and BNY have some similarities to BOA with both NYC and NJ operations. There are some foreign automobile companies with US based leadership in NJ. Part of this is because of NYC and the Mad Men of Madison avenue (advertising). You also have scenarios where NYC office space is too expensive so companies with leadership in NYC move lower tier divisions to NJ where office space is a little cheaper.
I still don't buy the idea that NY does not directly benefit from improved rail service from the NJ side of the Hudson.
As best as I could come up with, nearly 400,000 people commute from NJ to NY. That is the more interstate commuters than anywhere else in the country. I found some conflicting data but one report puts the # of commuters into Manhattan from NJ above any single county in NY. This includes the other Borough's though I did find another report that seemed to rank Brooklyn and Queens above NJ. The number of Connecticut commuters lagged far behind.
Based on these numbers, NY derives tremendous benefits from its NJ commuters. Besides the financial benefits from tax collections and spending by commuters, improved train service keeps cars out of Manhattan.
The comment that " the impact of NJ commuters pales in comparison to the impact of the outer boroughs is simply not supported by the data that I found.
Big Lou - I had the good fortune (or misfortune, depending upon one's perspective) to be intimately involved with two major studies on behalf of NYC that addressed these issues. I did not use the "pales by comparison" phrase without justification.
I do agree with you that there is a substantial benefit to be derived by NYC if regional infrastructure were improved. Those benefits, however, simply are not nearly as important to NYC or NY State as they are to NJ. Subway infra structure improvement, as well as the Long Island Railroad and Metro North simply provide NY with much greater bang for the buck.
I believe NY - and the Feds - should contribute in a meaningful way towards improving access from NJ, but NJ must pay the primary dollars as they benefit far more than NY.
