OT: Bitcoins / Other Crypto Currencies for Dummies

[Upstream]

You're missing the point and you don't seem to understand the value of the currency you hold your assets has on its real value. There are lot of reasons that bitcoin might be a bad store of value, but the arguments you make apply to all currencies, whether they are issued by a government or aren't.

You also don't "track" the value. You're IBM shares are held in some currency and you are taking risk in that currency. Unless you hold the physical certificate which I don't think you meant.

If I own 1000 shares of IBM (whether I have a physical certificate, or my ownership is recorded electronically), then I own one one-millionth of the company. Each share is a share of the company, not a currency. A share of IBM is currently selling for $152 or 128 Euros. But I own IBM, not Dollars or Euros. I own the investment (IBM) not the currency.

Also, the only argument I am making regarding Bitcoin as a currency is the instability of its value. That argument can apply to all currencies. But the variability of Bitcoin (value change of 2000% in 11 months) is pretty unusual. If the value of the Dollar or Euro migrated by 1/20th of what we see in Bitcoin, that would be considered a monetary crisis. There are other barriers to Bitcoin being a useful currency, but the value fluctuation is the biggest, most significant barrier.

 

[RUBlueLot]

Unusual compared to other emerging currencies?? See any rapid inflationary country or Americas many iterations of a central banks.

Ever heard the phrase it's not worth a continental?

Bitcoin will eventually settle down. It will continue to gain adoption outside the US.

Let's see what happens in a year

 

[R1766U]

Crypto currency is the sizzle. Blockchain is the steak. In our lifetime, every single interaction in your life may be on a Blockchain. Go to the doctor: the prescription he wrote will be on a block chain, get pulled over, the ticket goes on a block chain, direct deposit goes into your Blockchain. You entire life history will be on a central database.

If you decide to buy a house, you’ll give the realtor your personal key and you’ll get a mortgage, attorney review and title search and transfer literally in minutes.

Buying a car would take seconds to process.

Hookers and blow purchases would be instantaneous.

So how can people invest in blockchain? Or is that not possible?

 

[Goo]

Isn’t bitcoin mostly owned by the miners? Would not surprise me if they transact amongst themselves at slightly higher prices each time to artificially raise prices.


Eventually sizable owners of bitcoin will sell the futures contracts and dump their bitcoin. Bitcoin loses are offset by futures gain. They will essentially be out of the digital coin and have received fiat currency. All digital coin buyers will be losers.


And what someone else said above, most miners are in China. That’s comforting to know.


However, Block chain technology could be what the internet was to Google, Amazon, Facebook, Netflix, etc. These new companies may not even exist yet.


I’ll be paying attention for the next 10-20 years. The opportunity will be there.

 

[Postman_1]

Here is some good info on Iota. Ive been into this for a while. Its one of the only cryptos out there that has a real use. The have some big participants in there Data Marketplace and just this week Bosh Venture Capital invested in them. So many other coins out there are just BS coins that have major flaws. Iota is IMO the way to go

 

[RU Golfer]

all I will say is that i mine and I am doing just fine....you need to know what to mine

 

[RUinOhio]

big crash today

 

[rcube1994]

Buying bitcoin on margin? Yeah, nothing can go wrong with that.

 

[Scarlet_Scourge]

 

[RU_Planning]

The ability to short bitcoin will be good for bitcoin long term, if it is legitimate.

 

[RUNVA]

How to Capitalize on Crypto Eating the World Economy [Visualized]
In Crypto We Trust
Growing from $17.7B to $623B so far this year, thecrypto-economyis seeing mass adoption across oceans and borders.

Welcome to the fastest growing industry in human history.

Despite the boom in cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin remains king

The World Economy (Pre-Crypto)


A traditional view of the world’s money

Welcome to the world’s GDP!We’ve got about $78.5 Trillion USD total. If you live in the USA or China, congratulations! You’re worth about $29 Trillion and make up about 39% of the world’s GDP.

If you’re Saudi Arabia,you’re worth about $756 Billion, or about .96% of the global GDP.

And if you’re Jeff Bezos,you’re worth about $100 Billion, or about .13% of the global GDP (And hey Jeff, could you help me get my Alexa working again?)

A Year in Crypto

Year to date of the crypto market cap

Growing from a market cap of $17.7B to $623.2B USD, the crypto industry has grown by 3,520% so far this year — A rate some experts might call “Stupid Fast”

Despite the boom of new coins in the market Bitcoin reigns supreme with an approximately$318B market capand just over 51% of the industry.

The World Meets Crypto


Move over Argentina, Crypto is the 21st richest country now!

This is what the world economy looks like today featuring cryptocurrencies. Do you see that little slice between Switzerland and Argentina? That’s crypto, and it’s already 35x larger than it was at Jan 1st, 2017. It’s not a big slice, but it’s visible now which is a pretty big accomplishment in and of itself.

The Future of Crypto
Now let’s look forward at what the future has in store for us. We’ll assume a more modest rate of growth at just 1,000% annually, but for fun-sies let’s see what happens if crypto maintains this growth through 2018

Crypto One Year Projection Maintained Growth


In crypto we trust

Wowza! If the crypto market keeps up its breakneck growth for just one more year, it will already be bigger than the US economy!

Another year out and crypto looks like pacman.

Back to a more modest 6x growth rate (less than a fifth of 2017's). Here’s the respective charts for 2018–2020.

Crypto 2018 Projection at 1/5th Growth


Crypto in 2018 EOY

Crypto is the 6th biggest economy in the world this time next year if it slows growth to a fifth of what it’s doing now.

Crypto 2019 Projection at 1/5th Growth


Crypto in 2019 EOY

In 2 years, crypto overtakes China as the second largest world economy.

Crypto 2020 Projection at 1/5th Growth


Crypto in 2020 EOY

By the end of 2020, half the world runs on crypto.

And some people are saying “the ship has sailed” when it comes to crypto.

“But this growth isn’t possibly sustainable!”
I’ll be the first to admit the growth we’re seeing is bat-**** crazy.

I remember around a year ago around New Years 2017, there was a poll asking what we thought the price of Ethereum (then $8) would be by the end of 2017. I thought I was so bullish when I guessed$50!After all that was more than 6x in a year. Today, Ethereum specifically is sitting at around100x what it was a year ago.

The lesson to be taken away is that, yes the crypto-economycouldcollapse and all of your (and my) investments could fall to zero, but there’s also the opportunity to see growth that defies historical logic.

Money is made up, traditional economics isn’t holding up, and it’s the wild wild west in the crypto world.

“So how do I capitalize?”
You hold shift while pressing your key But for real:

1. If you haven’t already, put some money in crypto
Enough that you would not be devastated if it disappeared, but you would be very excited to see it multiply. We still have a long way to go and the industry is young. Grab yourself a slice of the pie before it’s gone

2. Place your bets long-term
Like startups, more than 90% of new coins will likely fail. So don’t support the pump and dump economy, invest long-term in the tokens you actually believe are offering something valuable to the ecosystem/world

3. Time in the market > Timing in the market
Crypto prices take 25% swings up and down in a day — get used to it. But if you’re placing your bets long term and HODL, you’ll catch every bull run on the way to the moon

4. Build something
For as fast as it’s growing, the crypto industry is still in an infantile stage. There are green fields of opportunity waiting for the ambitious engineer or entrepreneur out there. We didn’t see the most popular mobile apps until almost 10 years after the invention of the iPhone, and I’m certain the most popular blockchain apps are still waiting to be developed

Thanks so much to my team atDispatch Labs, for helping me edit and encouraging me to turn my preachings into writings. And thanks to all the blockchain builders out there who’ve gotten us this far. We’re standing on the shoulders of giants ❤️

 

[RUinOhio]

this morning was a good time to buy....litecoin dropped to 146, recovered all the way to 290 a few minutes ago. easy way to double your money...

 

[RUNVA]

ETH on the dip too.

 

[RU_Planning]

How to Capitalize on Crypto Eating the World Economy [Visualized]
In Crypto We Trust
Growing from $17.7B to $623B so far this year, thecrypto-economyis seeing mass adoption across oceans and borders.

Welcome to the fastest growing industry in human history.

Despite the boom in cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin remains king

The World Economy (Pre-Crypto)


A traditional view of the world’s money

Welcome to the world’s GDP!We’ve got about $78.5 Trillion USD total. If you live in the USA or China, congratulations! You’re worth about $29 Trillion and make up about 39% of the world’s GDP.

If you’re Saudi Arabia,you’re worth about $756 Billion, or about .96% of the global GDP.

And if you’re Jeff Bezos,you’re worth about $100 Billion, or about .13% of the global GDP (And hey Jeff, could you help me get my Alexa working again?)

A Year in Crypto

Year to date of the crypto market cap

Growing from a market cap of $17.7B to $623.2B USD, the crypto industry has grown by 3,520% so far this year — A rate some experts might call “Stupid Fast”

Despite the boom of new coins in the market Bitcoin reigns supreme with an approximately$318B market capand just over 51% of the industry.

The World Meets Crypto


Move over Argentina, Crypto is the 21st richest country now!

This is what the world economy looks like today featuring cryptocurrencies. Do you see that little slice between Switzerland and Argentina? That’s crypto, and it’s already 35x larger than it was at Jan 1st, 2017. It’s not a big slice, but it’s visible now which is a pretty big accomplishment in and of itself.

The Future of Crypto
Now let’s look forward at what the future has in store for us. We’ll assume a more modest rate of growth at just 1,000% annually, but for fun-sies let’s see what happens if crypto maintains this growth through 2018

Crypto One Year Projection Maintained Growth


In crypto we trust

Wowza! If the crypto market keeps up its breakneck growth for just one more year, it will already be bigger than the US economy!

Another year out and crypto looks like pacman.

Back to a more modest 6x growth rate (less than a fifth of 2017's). Here’s the respective charts for 2018–2020.

Crypto 2018 Projection at 1/5th Growth


Crypto in 2018 EOY

Crypto is the 6th biggest economy in the world this time next year if it slows growth to a fifth of what it’s doing now.

Crypto 2019 Projection at 1/5th Growth


Crypto in 2019 EOY

In 2 years, crypto overtakes China as the second largest world economy.

Crypto 2020 Projection at 1/5th Growth


Crypto in 2020 EOY

By the end of 2020, half the world runs on crypto.

And some people are saying “the ship has sailed” when it comes to crypto.

“But this growth isn’t possibly sustainable!”
I’ll be the first to admit the growth we’re seeing is bat-**** crazy.

I remember around a year ago around New Years 2017, there was a poll asking what we thought the price of Ethereum (then $8) would be by the end of 2017. I thought I was so bullish when I guessed$50!After all that was more than 6x in a year. Today, Ethereum specifically is sitting at around100x what it was a year ago.

The lesson to be taken away is that, yes the crypto-economycouldcollapse and all of your (and my) investments could fall to zero, but there’s also the opportunity to see growth that defies historical logic.

Money is made up, traditional economics isn’t holding up, and it’s the wild wild west in the crypto world.

“So how do I capitalize?”
You hold shift while pressing your key But for real:

1. If you haven’t already, put some money in crypto
Enough that you would not be devastated if it disappeared, but you would be very excited to see it multiply. We still have a long way to go and the industry is young. Grab yourself a slice of the pie before it’s gone

2. Place your bets long-term
Like startups, more than 90% of new coins will likely fail. So don’t support the pump and dump economy, invest long-term in the tokens you actually believe are offering something valuable to the ecosystem/world

3. Time in the market > Timing in the market
Crypto prices take 25% swings up and down in a day — get used to it. But if you’re placing your bets long term and HODL, you’ll catch every bull run on the way to the moon

4. Build something
For as fast as it’s growing, the crypto industry is still in an infantile stage. There are green fields of opportunity waiting for the ambitious engineer or entrepreneur out there. We didn’t see the most popular mobile apps until almost 10 years after the invention of the iPhone, and I’m certain the most popular blockchain apps are still waiting to be developed

Thanks so much to my team atDispatch Labs, for helping me edit and encouraging me to turn my preachings into writings. And thanks to all the blockchain builders out there who’ve gotten us this far. We’re standing on the shoulders of giants ❤️

Infant stages yet going to surpass China in 1 year...

 

[jtung230]

this morning was a good time to buy....litecoin dropped to 146, recovered all the way to 290 a few minutes ago. easy way to double your money...

What about the dropped to 146 part? LOL

 

[RUinOhio]

lol ya of course if you bought higher, but playing dips is a way to make money...i bought and just watch this play out. see where we are in a year.

What about the dropped to 146 part? LOL

 

[BABYBULL24]

If I own 1000 shares of IBM (whether I have a physical certificate, or my ownership is recorded electronically), then I own one one-millionth of the company. Each share is a share of the company, not a currency. A share of IBM is currently selling for $152 or 128 Euros. But I own IBM, not Dollars or Euros. I own the investment (IBM) not the currency.

Also, the only argument I am making regarding Bitcoin as a currency is the instability of its value. That argument can apply to all currencies. But the variability of Bitcoin (value change of 2000% in 11 months) is pretty unusual. If the value of the Dollar or Euro migrated by 1/20th of what we see in Bitcoin, that would be considered a monetary crisis. There are other barriers to Bitcoin being a useful currency, but the value fluctuation is the biggest, most significant barrier.

Sorry this is wrong - nobody owns stock certificates anymore since 1996...mayber your MeMa does - better read your fine print. It's not possible with the high frequency trading going on

"Thus, investors do not themselves hold direct property rights in stock, but rather have contractual rights that are part of a chain of contractual rights involving Cede.[4]"

Cede and Company
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cede_and_Company

Bitcoin was co -opted by Wall St. on December 15th - it's now a rigged game and been in the crapper ever since. Would run not walk away from BTC since the CME started their futures market.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/15/bitcoin-futures-are-coming-to-the-cme-heres-what-to-expect.html

I have some Litecoin LTC and once the CME/Wall St gets involved with that will get the hell out of Dodge.

Good luck

They don't call them the Wizards of Wall St. for nothing - if they want the price to go up - it will go up - if they want the price to go down - it will go down. If your going to trade it - all you need to do is look at the CME Futures price and will tell the story.

Rigged since 12/15 and with the Futures they don't own 1 single Bitcoin and they control the price. So get the hell out BTC. The bankers have their hands on it now & you will not win against them.
imo

 

[jtung230]

lol ya of course if you bought higher, but playing dips is a way to make money...i bought and just watch this play out. see where we are in a year.

I hear ya. I play powerball or Mega million too.

 

[RU_Planning]

Sorry this is wrong - nobody owns stock certificates anymore since 1996...mayber your MeMa does - better read your fine print. It's not possible with the high frequency trading going on

"Thus, investors do not themselves hold direct property rights in stock, but rather have contractual rights that are part of a chain of contractual rights involving Cede.[4]"

Cede and Company
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cede_and_Company

Bitcoin was co -opted by Wall St. on December 15th - it's now a rigged game and been in the crapper ever since. Would run not walk away from BTC since the CME started their futures market.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/15/bitcoin-futures-are-coming-to-the-cme-heres-what-to-expect.html

I have some Litecoin LTC and once the CME/Wall St gets involved with that will get the hell out of Dodge.

Good luck

They don't call them the Wizards of Wall St. for nothing - if they want the price to go up - it will go up - if they want the price to go down - it will go down. If your going to trade it - all you need to do is look at the CME Futures price and will tell the story.

Rigged since 12/15 and with the Futures they don't own 1 single Bitcoin and they control the price. So get the hell out BTC. The bankers have their hands on it now & you will not win against them.
imo

What was the market before the market got involved?

 

[BABYBULL24]

What was the market before the market got involved?

lol - Bitcoin is pier to pier transactions knocking the Bankers out of the picture. When you can move money person to person and not deal with banks, credit cards, debit cards , etc

So if Bitcoin is a Billion dollar market - why would the Bankers get involved with it when they deal in multi- Trillions?

It's chump change for the Bankers now but its competition to them in he future.

Trust me if the CME didn't bring out the futures it woudl be north of 20K now but they had to kill it. But they are fighting a losing battle. They can't pervert every crypto currency.
imo

I mean wouldm't expect them to go down without fighting but they are going down.

 

[RUinOhio]

that's pretty much it!

I hear ya. I play powerball or Mega million too.

 

[RUBlueLot]

What the bankers can’t stop is the daily adoption of vendors around the world as a form of payment. It’ll never go away and will only continue to encroach on existing fiat currency’s.

Just need another major financial crisis started by our central planners and you’ll see rapid adoption.... and, if history is any indicator it’s just a matter of time before the next one.

 

[RU_Planning]

lol - Bitcoin is pier to pier transactions knocking the Bankers out of the picture. When you can move money person to person and not deal with banks, credit cards, debit cards , etc

So if Bitcoin is a Billion dollar market - why would the Bankers get involved with it when they deal in multi- Trillions?

It's chump change for the Bankers now but its competition to them in he future.

Trust me if the CME didn't bring out the futures it woudl be north of 20K now but they had to kill it. But they are fighting a losing battle. They can't pervert every crypto currency.
imo

I mean wouldm't expect them to go down without fighting but they are going down.

Legitimate markets allow for futures and shorting.

 

[BABYBULL24]

It's really not like buying a lottery ticket - its the tech of the future.

The block chain is the path to a cashless society...which is what they want so it is the future...you will have to deal with it whether you like it or not. No underground economy - they want to tax everything that moves.

The block chain is merely a ledger that records everything and everybody,
and that is no joke.
imo

 

[BABYBULL24]

Legitimate markets allow for futures and shorting.

Not arguing with you - what you call legitimate I call rigged.

Look at the Silver ETF - SLV - they trade in paper millions of ounces of Silver than exists of physical Silver on Earth. How is that legitimate?

If everyone that holds the SLV - ETF asked for physical delivery of Silver instead of paper - the whole shit show would fold.

What you call legitimate - I call a Banker Scam.

Peace out

That is how these Bankers get away with all these scams - Buttercup.

Ask for a Stock Certificate - ask for your Gold or Silver - not happening.

Go ask Germany - they wanted their Gold back for the country we were holding for them and our Fed told them to go pound Salt.

 

[Upstream]

Sorry this is wrong - nobody owns stock certificates anymore since 1996...mayber your MeMa does - better read your fine print. It's not possible with the high frequency trading going on

"Thus, investors do not themselves hold direct property rights in stock, but rather have contractual rights that are part of a chain of contractual rights involving Cede.[4]"

Cede and Company
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cede_and_Company

I think you are taking my simplified example and getting hung up on the technical aspects of how stocks are exchanged.

My point is that good investments are backed by something with intrinsic value. The example of IBM, is that IBM stock (or chain of contractual obligations for the stock) is ultimately tied to the actual value of IBM, whether you quote that value in dollars or euros. The value of IBM is intrinsic to IBM, compared to Bitcoin which has no intrinsic value and is not tied to something with intrinsic value.

 

[RUBlueLot]

If your argument is purely based on intrinsic value then you lose me. The dollar which is the worldwide accepted currency is a fiat currency and is backed by Congress’s ability to tax the shit out of us to make good, which they could never do without a revolt.

At least with bitcoin you have to solve an equation. What does the federal reserve need to do to print US Dollars (actually they don’t even print it). They’re forgers with the stamp of approval of Congress.

 

[ArminRU]

So is this the official crypto crew thread yet? I was waiting for one of these to pop up. It's always fun listening to stock guys trying to understand crypto.

Today was a fun day. Who bought the dip? What coins you investing in?

 

[Upstream]

If your argument is purely based on intrinsic value then you lose me. The dollar which is the worldwide accepted currency is a fiat currency and is backed by Congress’s ability to tax the shit out of us to make good, which they could never do without a revolt.

At least with bitcoin you have to solve an equation. What does the federal reserve need to do to print US Dollars (actually they don’t even print it). They’re forgers with the stamp of approval of Congress.

Apparently I've lost everyone. I make a point that Bitcoin is a bad investment, and people respond about it not being a worse investment than other currencies (which I agree are also bad investments). I make a point that Bitcoin is a bad currency, and people respond that it is an investment.

So, I'll try one more time, and then I'm out.

You can look at Bitcoin either as a currency or an investment. It is a bad currency because the value fluctuates too much and too quickly for it to be useful to transact commerce. It is a bad investment because it is not tied to anything of intrinsic value, and therefore the price increase is ultimately a bubble, not because there is something of intrinsic value that is increasing in value.

 

[ArminRU]

lol - Bitcoin is pier to pier transactions knocking the Bankers out of the picture. When you can move money person to person and not deal with banks, credit cards, debit cards , etc

So if Bitcoin is a Billion dollar market - why would the Bankers get involved with it when they deal in multi- Trillions?

It's chump change for the Bankers now but its competition to them in he future.

Trust me if the CME didn't bring out the futures it woudl be north of 20K now but they had to kill it. But they are fighting a losing battle. They can't pervert every crypto currency.
imo

I mean wouldm't expect them to go down without fighting but they are going down.

How did futures limit the btc price? By keeping cash from flowing into the currency by going into the futures, or something else? Never understood this.

 

[BABYBULL24]

I think you are taking my simplified example and getting hung up on the technical aspects of how stocks are exchanged.

My point is that good investments are backed by something with intrinsic value. The example of IBM, is that IBM stock (or chain of contractual obligations for the stock) is ultimately tied to the actual value of IBM, whether you quote that value in dollars or euros. The value of IBM is intrinsic to IBM, compared to Bitcoin which has no intrinsic value and is not tied to something with intrinsic value.

I agree - say a company that makes toilet paper is worth something - the paper - the machines - the employees are worth something.

Say that company is valued in US dollars and the dollar goes to zero - what is that company worth? Sure the machines - the stock paper is worth something but what is it worth?

So what you guys need to learn is nominal confusion -

In 1913 the Treasury printed a $20 note
in 2017 the Treasury printed a $20 note

Now in 1913 what could you buy with that 20 bucks - name it half a car - 50 hair cuts - 20 lap dances?

Now in 2017 - what does 20 bucks buy you - a taxi ride - 1 hair cut - a lap dance by a fat chick?

That's how they get you - in 1913 that 1 dollar piece of paper would buy you 100 penny's of value now that 1 dollar of value buys you 2 cents of value

Do you get what I mean - they never change the value of the 20 dollar note but they change what you get for that's how the Bankers F U over.
Inflation - peeps!

So if you have an honest currency - 1 BTC for 1 Lap dance in 1913 and there are a finite amount of currency - so 1 BTC for 1 Lap dance in 2017.

No inflation - sorry i forget what I was saying but thats how these Bankers make their money. In the dark - they should be all taken out and killed.
imo

 

[BABYBULL24]

Apparently I've lost everyone. I make a point that Bitcoin is a bad investment, and people respond about it not being a worse investment than other currencies (which I agree are also bad investments). I make a point that Bitcoin is a bad currency, and people respond that it is an investment.

So, I'll try one more time, and then I'm out.

You can look at Bitcoin either as a currency or an investment. It is a bad currency because the value fluctuates too much and too quickly for it to be useful to transact commerce. It is a bad investment because it is not tied to anything of intrinsic value, and therefore the price increase is ultimately a bubble, not because there is something of intrinsic value that is increasing in value.

Okay - so think about this...every piece of paper currency that a government prints is a debt instrument - they can borrow off that dollar and they do - not coins - pieces of paper. They cant and wont borrow off US coins minted only the paper dollars.

So that means every person in the US is working for a debt instrument and further enslaving themselves into debt.

and that is the truth!

Do you think that works in society - of course not!

Revolution to follow

 

[Upstream]

I agree - say a company that makes toilet paper is worth something - the paper - the machines - the employees are worth something.

Say that company is valued in US dollars and the dollar goes to zero - what is that company worth? Sure the machines - the stock paper is worth something but what is it worth?

So what you guys need to learn is nominal confusion -

In 1913 the Treasury printed a $20 note
in 2017 the Treasury printed a $20 note

Now in 1913 what could you buy with that 20 bucks - name it half a car - 50 hair cuts - 20 lap dances?

Now in 2017 - what does 20 bucks buy you - a taxi ride - 1 hair cut - a lap dance by a fat chick?

That's how they get you - in 1913 that 1 dollar piece of paper would buy you 100 penny's of value now that 1 dollar of value buys you 2 cents of value

Do you get what I mean - they never change the value of the 20 dollar note but they change what you get for that's how the Bankers F U over.
Inflation - peeps!

So if you have an honest currency - 1 BTC for 1 Lap dance in 1913 and there are a finite amount of currency - so 1 BTC for 1 Lap dance in 2017.

No inflation - sorry i forget what I was saying but thats how these Bankers make their money. In the dark - they should be all taken out and killed.
imo

If the dollar goes to zero, you can still value the toilet paper company in Euros. Or just barter it for other goods. That's the investment aspect. If you have something of intrinsic value, it has value in and of itself, not based on a specific currency.

You then switch your discussion to the currency aspect of Bitcoin, when you bring up inflation.

If the value of 1 BTC was 1 lap dance in 1913 and still 1 lap dance in 2017, then it would be a pretty stable currency, and my complaint about Bitcoin being a poor currency would be invalid. But that's not the case. The value of $100 in dollars was 1 lap dance in Jan 2017 and still 1 lap dance in Dec 2017. However $100 in BTC was 1 lap dance in Jan 2017 and 20 lap dances in Dec 2017. Of if you signed a purchase order in Bitcoin for a lap dance in January to be delivered in December, you will overpay 20-fold for that December lap dance. You can't conduct business with a currency that varies that much. Even though the value of the dollar isn't completely stable, and has changed significantly over the course of a century, it is relatively stable compared to the wild fluctuation of Bitcoin.

 

[ArminRU]

Apparently I've lost everyone. I make a point that Bitcoin is a bad investment, and people respond about it not being a worse investment than other currencies (which I agree are also bad investments). I make a point that Bitcoin is a bad currency, and people respond that it is an investment.

So, I'll try one more time, and then I'm out.

You can look at Bitcoin either as a currency or an investment. It is a bad currency because the value fluctuates too much and too quickly for it to be useful to transact commerce. It is a bad investment because it is not tied to anything of intrinsic value, and therefore the price increase is ultimately a bubble, not because there is something of intrinsic value that is increasing in value.

You have to think deeper. Cryptocurrency is a new asset class all together. It's tough to compare against other currencies or commodities. It's really a mixture of a few things - currency, commodities and collectibles. A lot of people scoff at art and other collectibles when they sell for $10million, meanwhile the intrinsic value of the canvas and paint is $20.

Most people agree that bitcoin's intrinsic value can be found in the effort of mining, which is pretty expensive. What about the blockchain code?

This technology will slowly revolutionize a lot of what we do. The use cases will become a lot more clear in the coming years.

 

[robcac26]

Apparently I've lost everyone. I make a point that Bitcoin is a bad investment, and people respond about it not being a worse investment than other currencies (which I agree are also bad investments). I make a point that Bitcoin is a bad currency, and people respond that it is an investment.

So, I'll try one more time, and then I'm out.

You can look at Bitcoin either as a currency or an investment. It is a bad currency because the value fluctuates too much and too quickly for it to be useful to transact commerce. It is a bad investment because it is not tied to anything of intrinsic value, and therefore the price increase is ultimately a bubble, not because there is something of intrinsic value that is increasing in value.

I think you are making good points, but some cryptocurrencies offer more than just being a currency. The two that I have put a little into, iota and ripple, seem to have more lasting power than something that is only an investment since their goal is for future transactions to take place using their technology as a platform rather than just being conducted in their currency, so I think there is some actual substance to them that makes them more worthy of investing. Of course, their technology might not catch on, but that is the risk you take with any startup. This article might help explain it. It's kind of long, but if you scroll down to the part titled "The Contenders" it discusses the differences between the types of cryptocurrencies.

 

[miketd1]

It comes down to this for me: Would I rather be paid in dollars or bitcoins?

Sure I could be a billionaire some day, but I can also lose 30% tomorrow with bills to pay...

 

[RU_Planning]

I agree - say a company that makes toilet paper is worth something - the paper - the machines - the employees are worth something.

Say that company is valued in US dollars and the dollar goes to zero - what is that company worth? Sure the machines - the stock paper is worth something but what is it worth?

So what you guys need to learn is nominal confusion -

In 1913 the Treasury printed a $20 note
in 2017 the Treasury printed a $20 note

Now in 1913 what could you buy with that 20 bucks - name it half a car - 50 hair cuts - 20 lap dances?

Now in 2017 - what does 20 bucks buy you - a taxi ride - 1 hair cut - a lap dance by a fat chick?

That's how they get you - in 1913 that 1 dollar piece of paper would buy you 100 penny's of value now that 1 dollar of value buys you 2 cents of value

Do you get what I mean - they never change the value of the 20 dollar note but they change what you get for that's how the Bankers F U over.
Inflation - peeps!

So if you have an honest currency - 1 BTC for 1 Lap dance in 1913 and there are a finite amount of currency - so 1 BTC for 1 Lap dance in 2017.

No inflation - sorry i forget what I was saying but thats how these Bankers make their money. In the dark - they should be all taken out and killed.
imo

We need a tin foil hat emoji.

 

[ArminRU]

It comes down to this for me: Would I rather be paid in dollars or bitcoins?

Sure I could be a billionaire some day, but I can also lose 30% tomorrow with bills to pay...

Nobody is saying you need to put your life saving into crypto. But I think any smart investor should have an allocation to crypto sized depending on your risk appetite. This is one of those once in a lifetime opportunities imo.

 

[robcac26]

It comes down to this for me: Would I rather be paid in dollars or bitcoins?

Sure I could be a billionaire some day, but I can also lose 30% tomorrow with bills to pay...

Well yeah that's why I'm only investing what I am prepared to lose after making my normal contributions to retirement accounts. No intelligent person would invest their entire life savings into one industry. Anyone who banks their entire life on cryptocurrencies is taking a massive risk.

 

[RUNVA]

The best way to play this is with house money. I was in, made a good profit and took it off the top. Banked a good it and now all house money.