OT Brexit Vote

[Alaska_Dawg]

The UK considered a strategy based on the Commonweath back in the 1960s. The cost of transit makes it difficult for British goods to compete, say, with American goods in Canada.

It might be a rough road for the UK at first but voting to leave the EU was a no brainer if you're British and you value your independence. It's a big world out there and nations like the US, China, Japan, India, Australia, South Korea, etc... all have something to offer. Those markets were closed to the Brits until now.

 

[retired711]

It might be a rough road for the UK at first but voting to leave the EU was a no brainer if you're British and you value your independence. It's a big world out there and nations like the US, China, Japan, India, Australia, South Korea, etc... all have something to offer. Those markets were closed to the Brits until now.

I don't see why you say that markets like the U.S. "were closed to the Brits until now."

 

[rutgersguy1]

Free movement goes both ways. I thought they want to secured their borders.

That's exactly my point. The 2 things (immigration/lots of money to the NHS) that were campaigned on hard by the leave campaign have been walked back by some of their lead campaigners. So if that's the case why leave? What is the massive gain? It also tells you what kind of deal they think will likely be negotiated as well.

 

[Alaska_Dawg]

I don't see why you say that markets like the U.S. "were closed to the Brits until now."

Tariffs as in free trade agreement. That's how I should have worded it not to mention the Brits are required to purchase X amount of goods such as produce from EU countries before they can seek cheaper produce from non EU countries. Automobiles are another example. A Japanese car cost $10,000 more in the UK compared to a German car of same value.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements <--- trade agreements with the EU takes years to close because of so much red tape. The WTO was supposed to end that crap but it didn't in the EU's eyes. The Brits will be able to cut their own deals now witch whoever they choose.

 

[Alaska_Dawg]

That's exactly my point. The 2 things (immigration/lots of money to the NHS) that were campaigned on hard by the leave campaign have been walked back by some of their lead campaigners. So if that's the case why leave? What is the massive gain? It also tells you what kind of deal they think will likely be negotiated as well.

Why leave? Google Magna Carta, Declaration of Independence, and Sovereign Nation status. The UK doesn't want Germany running its country ... just like the Canadians don't want the US running their country. There's more to life than counting beans.

 

[NotInRHouse]

California is on the verge of overtaking the UK as the 5th biggest economy in the world. They have a huge surplus, tax the rich, spend on strong public services, and have a ton of illegal immigrants.

Meanwhile, in the UK, the pro-Brexit crowd promised more spending on socialized medicine, a promise they revoked the day after winning and then the two leaders just quit. But yeah picking up the drawbridge is clearly what brings in success lol. British people are going to be lining to up to replace Polish and Romanian nannies and construction workers, jobs they only dreamed of before...

 

[retired711]

California is on the verge of overtaking the UK as the 5th biggest economy in the world. They have a huge surplus, tax the rich, spend on strong public services, and have a ton of illegal immigrants.

Meanwhile, in the UK, the pro-Brexit crowd promised more spending on socialized medicine, a promise they revoked the day after winning and then the two leaders just quit. But yeah picking up the drawbridge is clearly what brings in success lol. British people are going to be lining to up to replace Polish and Romanian nannies and construction workers, jobs they only dreamed of before...

My guess is that there are a lot of working-class Britons who would prefer those jobs to being unemployed, even though they won't work as cheaply as the Eastern Europeans would.

 

[topdecktiger]

California is on the verge of overtaking the UK as the 5th biggest economy in the world. They have a huge surplus, tax the rich, spend on strong public services, and have a ton of illegal immigrants.

Meanwhile, in the UK, the pro-Brexit crowd promised more spending on socialized medicine, a promise they revoked the day after winning and then the two leaders just quit. But yeah picking up the drawbridge is clearly what brings in success lol. British people are going to be lining to up to replace Polish and Romanian nannies and construction workers, jobs they only dreamed of before...

Not a good analogy, since California has the U.S. government as a backstop.

 

[Alaska_Dawg]

And so it begins ...


http://www.autonews.com/article/201...iff-free-trade-between-uk-and-eu-after-brexit
Automakers call for tariff-free trade between UK and EU after Brexit win


http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36740101
UK starts post-Brexit India trade talks


http://www.politico.eu/article/the-bright-side-of-brexit-us-uk-bilateral-bliss/
The bright side of Brexit? A US-UK trade deal
As sprawling regional trade deals become increasingly toxic politically, a trade deal with the U.K. could be relatively easy to negotiate and sell.


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13879...-with-countries-clamouring-to-do-trade-deals/
OPEN FOR BUSINESS Non-EU countries queue up to strike trade deals with Britain despite Brexit vote
Discussions are set to take place with Australia, South Korea, Canada, New Zealand, India and potentially even the USA


http://www.theweek.co.uk/brexit/63710/brexit-boost-as-china-talks-up-trade-deal-chances
Brexit boost as China talks up trade deal chances
Chinese officials hint at economic ties with post-Brexit Britain while Amazon says it is "business as usual"


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...uk-its-top-trade-negotiators-for-post-brexit/
New Zealand offers UK its top trade negotiators for post-Brexit deals

 

[NotInRHouse]

Not a good analogy, since California has the U.S. government as a backstop.

Except that California (like NJ and many blue states) actually gives more money to the US government than it gets, to help prop up many of the red states.

Mississippi and its ilk are the welfare queens of federal money that we here in NJ are propping up with our own tax dollars.

 

[NotInRHouse]

My guess is that there are a lot of working-class Britons who would prefer those jobs to being unemployed, even though they won't work as cheaply as the Eastern Europeans would.

Their unemployment is 5.4%. Not sure about the British, but when Alabama passed laws to kick out its illegal immigrants, farmers couldn't find anyone to work the fields. Alabama's unemployment is 5.8%.

When I hear a lot of this talk of jobs, it seems like people are looking for factory work that really isn't coming back to the industrialized world for a variety of reasons. If there was real evidence that native-born Western citizens were looking at low level service jobs with a serious eye, I don't think we would be having a lot of these discussions.

And, even if we said that these low paying jobs were the issue, it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater, because the French bankers are being kept out along with the Polish plumbers- assuming that the Brexiteers get their wish. Because leaving the EU does not impact the fact that many Caribbeans and South Asians immigrate to the UK as well.

I don't know of many societies in the history of the world for whom growing insular produced real results. On the other hand, there are a lot of examples where looser borders and more trade produced fantastic results that benefited the middle class.

 

[Alaska_Dawg]

Their unemployment is 5.4%. Not sure about the British, but when Alabama passed laws to kick out its illegal immigrants, farmers couldn't find anyone to work the fields. Alabama's unemployment is 5.8%.

When I hear a lot of this talk of jobs, it seems like people are looking for factory work that really isn't coming back to the industrialized world for a variety of reasons. If there was real evidence that native-born Western citizens were looking at low level service jobs with a serious eye, I don't think we would be having a lot of these discussions.

And, even if we said that these low paying jobs were the issue, it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater, because the French bankers are being kept out along with the Polish plumbers- assuming that the Brexiteers get their wish. Because leaving the EU does not impact the fact that many Caribbeans and South Asians immigrate to the UK as well.

I don't know of many societies in the history of the world for whom growing insular produced real results. On the other hand, there are a lot of examples where looser borders and more trade produced fantastic results that benefited the middle class.

The UK wants to start using the Australian points system in regards to allowing immigrants into its country. The UK wants to control its own borders. As of of now the EU and Merkel control UK immigration.

 

[NotInRHouse]

The UK wants to start using the Australian points system in regards to allowing immigrants into its country. The UK wants to control its own borders. As of of now the EU and Merkel control UK immigration.

They control European immigration, in the sense that a EU passport holder can move to the UK no questions asked.

Nothing is stopping them from implementing policies dealing with non-Europeans. Spain has policies that favor Latin American immigrants in citizenship. Many countries have individual "right of return" policies for descendants which would apply to millions of Americans among others. The EU gets no say on that. The UK could ban all non-European immigration tomorrow if they wanted to, EU or not.

Which again goes to the irony of the whole Brexit complaint, when so much was made of Muslims, this changes nothing for say, Pakistanis looking to move to the UK. They are totally not affected by the EU.

 

[retired711]

Except that California (like NJ and many blue states) actually gives more money to the US government than it gets, to help prop up many of the red states.

Mississippi and its ilk are the welfare queens of federal money that we here in NJ are propping up with our own tax dollars.

I think your first sentence is backward. New Yorkers have been complaining for decades that they send much more money to the Federal government than they get back, and that it's been the south and the west getting that money in the form of public works projects and defense bases.

 

[retired711]

They control European immigration, in the sense that a EU passport holder can move to the UK no questions asked.

Nothing is stopping them from implementing policies dealing with non-Europeans. Spain has policies that favor Latin American immigrants in citizenship. Many countries have individual "right of return" policies for descendants which would apply to millions of Americans among others. The EU gets no say on that. The UK could ban all non-European immigration tomorrow if they wanted to, EU or not.

Which again goes to the irony of the whole Brexit complaint, when so much was made of Muslims, this changes nothing for say, Pakistanis looking to move to the UK. They are totally not affected by the EU.

the British complaints are about Poles and citizens of other former East Bloc nations now in the EU. Being able to control non-Europeans doesn't solve those complaints -- hence, British who don't want more "Polish plumbers" support Brexit.

 

[NotInRHouse]

I think your first sentence is backward. New Yorkers have been complaining for decades that they send much more money to the Federal government than they get back, and that it's been the south and the west getting that money in the form of public works projects and defense bases.

Yes...if that wasn't clear in what I meant...we send way more to the feds than we get back. We being CA. NY, NJ, MA, CT, IL etc

 

[Alaska_Dawg]

They control European immigration, in the sense that a EU passport holder can move to the UK no questions asked.

Nothing is stopping them from implementing policies dealing with non-Europeans. Spain has policies that favor Latin American immigrants in citizenship. Many countries have individual "right of return" policies for descendants which would apply to millions of Americans among others. The EU gets no say on that. The UK could ban all non-European immigration tomorrow if they wanted to, EU or not.

Which again goes to the irony of the whole Brexit complaint, when so much was made of Muslims, this changes nothing for say, Pakistanis looking to move to the UK. They are totally not affected by the EU.

I've spent a decent amount of time in eastern Europe including trips to Ukraine, Romania, Russia, Moldova, Belarus, Poland, etc... and again the UK wants to control its own borders ... as in who is allowed to immigrate into its country. The Romanians and Bulgarians are notorious for being criminals first, and model citizens 2nd. It is what it is. The UK would like to use the Australian points system on who is allowed to immigrate into its country.

Merkel helped seal the deal on Brexit when she opened the flood gates to millions of Middle Easterners and North Africans and then tried to plant them in EU countries. That was her undoing.

 

[NotInRHouse]

the British complaints are about Poles and citizens of other former East Bloc nations now in the EU. Being able to control non-Europeans doesn't solve those complaints -- hence, British who don't want more "Polish plumbers" support Brexit.

Right. My response was to Alaska's point on points...the UK could do that tomorrow for non-EU citizens.

I was referring to the poster seen all over social media with a huge group of "brown" folks attributed to the EU, which makes no sense. Two totally distinct issues.

Canada and Australia post their points requirements online, if anyone thinks that would change things for the UK or here, I'm not so sure after having read them over (and qualified to move to Canada, lol).

 

[NotInRHouse]

I've spent a decent amount of time in eastern Europe including trips to Ukraine, Romania, Russia, Moldova, Belarus, Poland, etc... and again the UK wants to control its own borders ... as in who is allowed to immigrate into its country. The Romanians and Bulgarians are notorious for being criminals first, and model citizens 2nd. It is what it is. The UK would like to use the Australian points system on who is allowed to immigrate into its country.

Merkel helped seal the deal on Brexit when she opened the flood gates to millions of Middle Easterners and North Africans and then tried to plant them in EU countries. That was her undoing.

She didn't try to "plant" them. Here is the issue. They are going to get to Greece and Italy. Now the UK (or any other country) can pretend they won't make it there and they can build walls or enact laws or do whatever to keep them out, and I think history goes to show they would have no hope of stopping the flow. People will try other ways. If barrel bombs were being dropped anywhere in the world few would stay put. Her proposal was for each country to take in a share of this flow. Now if the UK thinks they can just withdraw and limit themselves to "qualified" immigrants let's see how that goes. It sure has not stopped anyone from flying into Canada and Australia and overstaying their visa, flying boats to Australia, crossing the entire US from Mexico (if not other Latin American countries before) to get to Canada.

Romanians, Bulgarians, et al do the jobs British people don't want to do. Just like here. Just like immigrants all over the world. I have known many immigrants and seen the work they do, and I don't know anyone growing up here in the US that aspires to pick fruit or clean houses. Could be the crowd I run in, but I don't think that's born out by statistics. And what happens when these people leave? Again it's shown time and again that when you pick up the drawbridge the economy suffers hugely. For what purpose?

 

[Alaska_Dawg]

She didn't try to "plant" them. Here is the issue. They are going to get to Greece and Italy. Now the UK (or any other country) can pretend they won't make it there and they can build walls or enact laws or do whatever to keep them out, and I think history goes to show they would have no hope of stopping the flow. People will try other ways. If barrel bombs were being dropped anywhere in the world few would stay put. Her proposal was for each country to take in a share of this flow. Now if the UK thinks they can just withdraw and limit themselves to "qualified" immigrants let's see how that goes. It sure has not stopped anyone from flying into Canada and Australia and overstaying their visa, flying boats to Australia, crossing the entire US from Mexico (if not other Latin American countries before) to get to Canada.

Romanians, Bulgarians, et al do the jobs British people don't want to do. Just like here. Just like immigrants all over the world. I have known many immigrants and seen the work they do, and I don't know anyone growing up here in the US that aspires to pick fruit or clean houses. Could be the crowd I run in, but I don't think that's born out by statistics. And what happens when these people leave? Again it's shown time and again that when you pick up the drawbridge the economy suffers hugely. For what purpose?

The EU is getting ready to open the Schengen Zone to Ukrainians. Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Albanians, etc... for the most part would choose to steal you blind before they would choose an honest day's work. Not all of them mind you, but enough to make a noticeable difference. Not all cultures are the same.

Once again the UK wants to control its countries immigration and borders. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[NotInRHouse]

The EU is getting ready to open the Schengen Zone to Ukrainians. Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Albanians, etc... for the most part would choose to steal you blind before they would choose an honest day's work. Not all of them mind you, but enough to make a noticeable difference. Not all cultures are the same.

Once again the UK wants to control its countries immigration and borders. Nothing wrong with that.

Without touching the ethnic generalizations, for a variety of very apparent reasons, Ukraine will not being joining the EU or Schengen anytime soon.

And for a variety of reasons, many of those ethnic groups would qualify for points...look at their numbers in Australia and Canada, and that's across the world.

 

[Alaska_Dawg]

Without touching the ethnic generalizations, for a variety of very apparent reasons, Ukraine will not being joining the EU or Schengen anytime soon.

And for a variety of reasons, many of those ethnic groups would qualify for points...look at their numbers in Australia and Canada, and that's across the world.

Australia and Canada choose their immigrants and they make their own immigration laws... as in Merkel doesn't make those laws for them.

As for Ukraine and the Schengen Zone ....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/20/eu-offers-visa-free-travel-to-ukraine/
Forty million Ukrainians will be able to travel to continental Europe without a visa, under a major loosening of border policy unveiled in Brussels today.


http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/666197/EU-Turkey-deal-migrant-crisis-Ukraine
127 MILLION people with visa-free travel to Europe in EU plans for Turkey and Ukraine
AROUND 127 million people from Turkey, Ukraine, Georgia and Kosovo are set to gain visa-free travel to Europe as European Union (EU) bureaucrats prepare to sign off the plans this week.


http://www.dw.com/en/ukrainians-move-closer-to-visa-free-eu-travel/a-19202337
Ukrainians move closer to visa-free EU travel

 

[Alaska_Dawg]

 

[NotInRHouse]

Australia and Canada choose their immigrants and they make their own immigration laws... as in Merkel doesn't make those laws for them.

As for Ukraine and the Schengen Zone ....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/20/eu-offers-visa-free-travel-to-ukraine/
Forty million Ukrainians will be able to travel to continental Europe without a visa, under a major loosening of border policy unveiled in Brussels today.


http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/666197/EU-Turkey-deal-migrant-crisis-Ukraine
127 MILLION people with visa-free travel to Europe in EU plans for Turkey and Ukraine
AROUND 127 million people from Turkey, Ukraine, Georgia and Kosovo are set to gain visa-free travel to Europe as European Union (EU) bureaucrats prepare to sign off the plans this week.


http://www.dw.com/en/ukrainians-move-closer-to-visa-free-eu-travel/a-19202337
Ukrainians move closer to visa-free EU travel

Again, for non EU immigrants she has no say.

And

20% of Canadians are foreign born
28% of Australians
8.3% UK
12.3% US

So which system is having the natives run over again?

 

[Alaska_Dawg]

Again, for non EU immigrants she has no say.

And

20% of Canadians are foreign born
28% of Australians
8.3% UK
12.3% US

So which system is having the natives run over again?

Anyone with an EU passport can move to the UK and once again the UK would like to control who comes into its country.

My ex wife was from Belarus. We had to use the USCIS (US Immigration) in order for her to immigrate to this country. That included a background check, a in depth medical checkup, two interviews, etc.... This was to make sure she had no transmittal diseases, no history of murder, drug using, drug running, robbing banks, assaulting children, etc... ..

Or I can put it this way. I can fly to Germany with my US passport or any EU country for that matter without needing a visa but I cannot immigrate to that country without going through said countries legal immigration process.

The UK wants to control its borders and its laws. As of now Germany is making the immigration laws for the UK in regards to EU citizens.

This would be the equivalent to Brazil or Canada controlling the laws and immigration for the US.

There are literally hundreds of countries that have trade pacts but do not require free movement between said countries. In fact they are in the majority.

The UK wants something like this down below:

http://www.workpermit.com/australia/point_calculator.htm
Australia Skilled Immigration Points Calculator

 

[retired711]

The Supreme Court ruled in the 1930s that California could not bar the Okies from coming. The idea behind the EU is that eventually nations will develop an identity as "European," so that one nation's bar on the natives of another will come to seem as absurd as California's ban on the Okies. Indeed, it was suggested that the EU call itself "The United States of Europe." We clearly are not at that point yet.

 

[retired711]

Good column in today's New York Times explaining the support for Brexit. The title: Why The EU had it coming

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/opinion/sunday/why-the-eu-had-it-coming.html?ref=opinion

 

[Alaska_Dawg]

 

[nick614]

Free movement goes both ways. I thought they want to secured their borders.

Only a portion wanted to secure the borders. But just because you have immigration doesn't mean it is mass immigration or immigration of people that don't share your values. Soon the UK will be able to decide who comes to their country and how many.

Just like we have an immigration problem here. The people we are taking over half go on welfare and medicare and another big portion go on social security and are too old to ever work. In the past we took immigrants and gave no benefits. The ones that want to work hard and make something stay and the ones that don't leave.

 

[Wolv RU]

Not a good analogy, since California has the U.S. government as a backstop.

Not a good analogy as California has a very large structural deficit. Their near-term budget health is directly linked to the financial markets. When the markets are up, California will have a near-term windfall. When markets fall, they are in a huge hole. California also has something like $400 Billion in unfunded liabilities.

California is no model for long term fiscal health. That doesn't even mention all of the additional problems California has due to its growing population, starting with water.

 

[Alaska_Dawg]

 

[retired711]

Only a portion wanted to secure the borders. But just because you have immigration doesn't mean it is mass immigration or immigration of people that don't share your values. Soon the UK will be able to decide who comes to their country and how many.

Just like we have an immigration problem here. The people we are taking over half go on welfare and medicare and another big portion go on social security and are too old to ever work. In the past we took immigrants and gave no benefits. The ones that want to work hard and make something stay and the ones that don't leave.

It is true that just over one-half of all immigrants (legal or illegal) receive some kind of benefit. But that 51% includes immigrants who are not on welfare, but receive Medicaid to pay medical bills or food stamps to pay for food. Those programs have been in existence since the mid-1960s, yet the U.S. has assimilated many hard-working immigrants since then. Immigrants tend by definition to be people who are enterprising enough to want to do better for themselves. BTW, the figure for those born here is 30%.

 

[rutgersguy1]

Looks like Theresa May will be the next prime minister as all the competition has now dropped out.

 

[J.L. Gotrocks]

 

[Rutgers1]

Not a good analogy as California has a very large structural deficit. Their near-term budget health is directly linked to the financial markets. When the markets are up, California will have a near-term windfall. When markets fall, they are in a huge hole. California also has something like $400 Billion in unfunded liabilities.

California is no model for long term fiscal health. That doesn't even mention all of the additional problems California has due to its growing population, starting with water.

EXACTLY. Over 50% of their revenue comes from the top 1% of their tax base. Their idiot government is talking about "saving" the current surplus. Fat chance of that happening. It'll be wasted and they'll be staring in to the abyss when the sh*t hits the fan.

 

[R1776U]

I've spent a decent amount of time in eastern Europe including trips to Ukraine, Romania, Russia, Moldova, Belarus, Poland, etc...

[cheers] how dem wemmenz over there?[winking]

 

[LC-88]

Not a good analogy, since California has the U.S. government as a backstop.

and when they over tax their water resources, wave good bye to being a #5 economy.

 

[rutgersguy1]

Looks like Theresa May will be the next prime minister as all the competition has now dropped out.

Cameron going to step down on Weds so the transition will be on a quicker pace than the original Sept/Oct time frame.

 

[R1776U]

and when they over tax their water resources, wave good bye to being a #5 economy.

http://ca.water.usgs.gov/data/drought/

 

[RUforester72]

California is on the verge of overtaking the UK as the 5th biggest economy in the world. They have a huge surplus, tax the rich, spend on strong public services, and have a ton of illegal immigrants.

Meanwhile, in the UK, the pro-Brexit crowd promised more spending on socialized medicine, a promise they revoked the day after winning and then the two leaders just quit. But yeah picking up the drawbridge is clearly what brings in success lol. British people are going to be lining to up to replace Polish and Romanian nannies and construction workers, jobs they only dreamed of before...

California, the progressive utopia! 10% of the nations population and a third of the welfare cases. Highest taxes in the nation and chasing off the folks who happen to pay those taxes. Some of the most fertile land in the world laying fallow because they cannot bring themselves to adequately manage their precious water resources. Not to mention the looming 10+ billion dollar pension deficit. Oh, and did I mention that in the last general, election the biggest campaign contributor was the California Teachers union. Great if you are an elite living in San Fran. Not so good if you are part of the middle class. Or a farm worker.