OT: Electric vehicles

[Knight Shift]

The rollout of all EVs has been drawn out and clumsy. Not sure why you're singling out the 1 company doing it better than anyone.

I'm talking only about the CT. Seems like multiple design changes, and more drawn out than other models, even for Tesla.

For comparison:
In January 2019, Ford announced the intention to produce a fully-electric light pickup at the 2019 Detroit Auto Show.[7]
Ford unveiled the truck, and released the model name on May 19, 2021,[9] with production planned for spring of 2022
The first pickup was manufactured on April 18, 2022, with first delivery on May 26.

----------
Production for the Cybertruck was originally planned to start in late 2021. It was later pushed back to begin sometime in 2022, before Musk kicked the can farther down the road to 2023. According to The Verge, Musk confirmed in January that the Cybertruck won't enter full volume production until sometime in 2024, but early manufacturing efforts were slated to begin this summer.

Tesla Cybertruck First Deliveries Now Slated for November 30

The company has announced that the first production versions of the Cybertruck will be delivered at its Gigafactory in Texas.

www.caranddriver.com

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

I'm talking only about the CT. Seems like multiple design changes, and more drawn out than other models, even for Tesla.

For comparison:
In January 2019, Ford announced the intention to produce a fully-electric light pickup at the 2019 Detroit Auto Show.[7]
Ford unveiled the truck, and released the model name on May 19, 2021,[9] with production planned for spring of 2022
The first pickup was manufactured on April 18, 2022, with first delivery on May 26.

----------
Production for the Cybertruck was originally planned to start in late 2021. It was later pushed back to begin sometime in 2022, before Musk kicked the can farther down the road to 2023. According to The Verge, Musk confirmed in January that the Cybertruck won't enter full volume production until sometime in 2024, but early manufacturing efforts were slated to begin this summer.

Tesla Cybertruck First Deliveries Now Slated for November 30

The company has announced that the first production versions of the Cybertruck will be delivered at its Gigafactory in Texas.

www.caranddriver.com

Design change from prototype to production is completely normal and expected.

CT is using 48 volt architecture, inhouse cells, stainless steel body, giant castings for the underbody, 1MW charging, and a whole lot more new tech. It's a blank slate , ground up design. They're not going to ramp until they're ready to accelerate production to 5k/wk, 250k/yr. CT is going to be profitable

Ford on the other hand has no intentions of reaching production #s like that on the current version of the Lightning. Lightning is an easier build as it's an EV on an ICE platform, rather than a blank slate design. And it's not like Ford hasn't seen it's share of design and production issues with the Lightning, so it could be argued they were hasty in their decision to ramp. 1+ year into production and Ford is still in the red on the Lightning. It's great they were 1st to market, but there's a lot more to the story

 

[mildone]

Design change from prototype to production is completely normal and expected.

CT is using 48 volt architecture, inhouse cells, stainless steel body, giant castings for the underbody, 1MW charging, and a whole lot more new tech. It's a blank slate , ground up design. They're not going to ramp until they're ready to accelerate production to 5k/wk, 250k/yr. CT is going to be profitable

Ford on the other hand has no intentions of reaching production #s like that on the current version of the Lightning. Lightning is an easier build as it's an EV on an ICE platform, rather than a blank slate design. And it's not like Ford hasn't seen it's share of design and production issues with the Lightning, so it could be argued they were hasty in their decision to ramp. 1+ year into production and Ford is still in the red on the Lightning. It's great they were 1st to market, but there's a lot more to the story

You really think the CT will sell 250K per year? Anything's possible, I suppose. But I'm skeptical.

Do we know the price yet? Or is there only speculation at this point?

 

[jtung230]

You really think the CT will sell 250K per year? Anything's possible, I suppose. But I'm skeptical.

Do we know the price yet? Or is there only speculation at this point?

It’ll be like the Ford Lighting. Entry model great value, but they’ll make those after they fill the expensive orders first.

 

[mildone]

It’ll be like the Ford Lighting. Entry model great value, but they’ll make those after they fill the expensive orders first.

I think they'd have to undercut the traditional truck companies by quite a bit to sell 250K per year. No?

And if you remove the expensive item cachet that appeals to certain people, what would motivate anybody to ignore the ugly styling and spartan interior, and buy one? Tesla appears to have claimed the top trim will have a range of 500 miles. So that might help, if they actually achieve that range.

I still don't see 250K sold per year, but who knows, stranger things have happened. We'll have to wait and see. Maybe they'd sell really well in China?

From what I've seen of them, inside and out, I wouldn't take one for free. But each to their own.

 

[jtung230]

I think they'd have to undercut the traditional truck companies by quite a bit to sell 250K per year. No?

And if you remove the expensive item cachet that appeals to certain people, what would motivate anybody to ignore the ugly styling and spartan interior, and buy one? Tesla appears to have claimed the top trim will have a range of 500 miles. So that might help, if they actually achieve that range.

I still don't see 250K sold per year, but who knows, stranger things have happened. We'll have to wait and see. Maybe they'd sell really well in China?

From what I've seen of them, inside and out, I wouldn't take one for free. But each to their own.

250k is not a year one goal (I hope). They’ll be lucky if they can roll out 50k this year.

 

[RU4Real]

250k is not a year one goal (I hope). They’ll be lucky if they can roll out 50k this year.

Ford delivered 12,000 Lightnings in 2022, with the first delivery on May 26.

They're on a pace to sell 60-70k in 2023, the first full production year, and are able to ramp up to 150k / year.

Seems more or less on par.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

250k is not a year one goal (I hope). They’ll be lucky if they can roll out 50k this year.

Nowhere close to 50k this year. Lucky to make 5k in Q4 if they ever announce the start of production. 12-18 months to reach peak run rate.

 

[mildone]

250k is not a year one goal (I hope). They’ll be lucky if they can roll out 50k this year.

No, of course not in the first year or so. But the reception of those first year vehicles will dictate how things go in future years. I'm pretty curious, actually.

The investor in me hopes Tesla sells them at a highly profitable price and sell gazillions of them. But the aesthete in me is, as I said earlier, skeptical that will happen. Here's to hoping I'm wrong to be so skeptical.

 

[fsg2]

You don't ac

I think they'd have to undercut the traditional truck companies by quite a bit to sell 250K per year. No?

And if you remove the expensive item cachet that appeals to certain people, what would motivate anybody to ignore the ugly styling and spartan interior, and buy one? Tesla appears to have claimed the top trim will have a range of 500 miles. So that might help, if they actually achieve that range.

I still don't see 250K sold per year, but who knows, stranger things have happened. We'll have to wait and see. Maybe they'd sell really well in China?

From what I've seen of them, inside and out, I wouldn't take one for free. But each to their own.

They certainly look like they belong in China.

And nowhere else, save maybe for Dubai.

 

[Knight Shift]

Boom. More pickup truck innovation from the leader in pickup truck manufacturing.

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2023/10/03/introducing-the-f-150-lightning-flash--a-new-tech-forward-model-.html

 

[RU4Real]

Boom. More pickup truck innovation from the leader in pickup truck manufacturing.

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2023/10/03/introducing-the-f-150-lightning-flash--a-new-tech-forward-model-.html

"The limited-edition F-150 Lightning Platinum Black with extended range will be available for order at $97,995."

Nah. I'll wait for the F-150 Lightning Platinum Black Carbon Special GT Performance Edition.

 

[fsg2]

"The limited-edition F-150 Lightning Platinum Black with extended range will be available for order at $97,995."

Nah. I'll wait for the F-150 Lightning Platinum Black Carbon Special GT Performance Edition.

A Lightning Raptor will be the sickness.

Useless for virtually everything, but want-isted nonetheless.

 

[RU4Real]

A Lightning Raptor will be the sickness.

Useless for virtually everything, but want-isted nonetheless.

I only know one person with a Raptor.

He would never buy an electric one, which is a shame because if he did then he could probably afford to actually drive it.

 

[mildone]

A Lightning Raptor will be the sickness.

Useless for virtually everything, but want-isted nonetheless.

I kind of feel like Raptor trims on different Ford models are like sports cars in that you want them to be an event every time you drive them. Even if just driving to the food store for a gallon of milk.

And, for me, an exhaust note and engine sounds are a big part of what makes both types of vehicles such an event. They contribute to the vehicle’s presence.

A Raptor Lightning would have the appearance side of the event-ness down. And the performance. But not the sounds.

 

[fsg2]

I only know one person with a Raptor.

He would never buy an electric one, which is a shame because if he did then he could probably afford to actually drive it.

I think I might know to whom you refer.

And if so ... seems like a raging poser.

 

[fsg2]

I kind of feel like Raptor trims on different Ford models are like sports cars in that you want them to be an event every time you drive them. Even if just driving to the food store for a gallon of milk.

And, for me, an exhaust note and engine sounds are a big part of what makes both types of vehicles such an event. They contribute to the vehicle’s presence.

A Raptor Lightning would have the appearance side of the event-ness down. And the performance. But not the sounds.

Yeah, but then you want something that handles better than a wannabe off-road racer.

So unless you have a big strip of open desert between you and the ShopRite ...

 

[jtung230]

Boom. More pickup truck innovation from the leader in pickup truck manufacturing.

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2023/10/03/introducing-the-f-150-lightning-flash--a-new-tech-forward-model-.html

The interesting thing in the link is that it said spring 2024 for 12k Tesla fast charging network.

 

[RU4Real]

I kind of feel like Raptor trims on different Ford models are like sports cars in that you want them to be an event every time you drive them. Even if just driving to the food store for a gallon of milk.

And, for me, an exhaust note and engine sounds are a big part of what makes both types of vehicles such an event. They contribute to the vehicle’s presence.

A Raptor Lightning would have the appearance side of the event-ness down. And the performance. But not the sounds.

I was asked to complete an owner experience survey the other day.

I complained about the exhaust note.

Still, respect to the Zoom Zoom folks for the fact that "exhaust note" was one of the choices of things to complain about.

 

[Knight Shift]

 

[jtung230]

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I’m always bother when they show a price that’s net of federal tax credit and gas savings.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

 

[RutgersNo1]

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

 

[mildone]

I think it's interesting how different people view the EV momentum. The above tweets paint a picture of accelerating EV adoption everywhere. While at the same time, there's a thread on Rennlist that shows EV adoption slowing down in the US.

I haven't attempted to validate the numbers being posted at either forum. Mostly because I'm not particularly interested in what type of car people are buying. EV adoption will continue to increase as a percentage of cars on the road for awhile. Kind of a given at this point.

However, I *am* interested in people and what makes them tick. Like most things, I think people tend to champion statistics that match their wishful thinking.

To me, much more interesting than sales numbers would be, how do scientists plan to measure the environmental impacts of EV adoption. The type of propulsion isn't very interesting. The benefit to the planet, to the life on that planet? That's very interesting, or should be, to all of us.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

 

[mildone]

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What was the change? I get that now people can just apply the credit at point of sale, which is how it ought to be. Did people have to pay up front with the dealer, then get reimbursed by the government?

If so, that's a really good change for consumers.

 

[WhichReligionIsRight]

What was the change? I get that now people can just apply the credit at point of sale, which is how it ought to be. Did people have to pay up front with the dealer, then get reimbursed by the government?

If so, that's a really good change for consumers.

Has been used when filing taxes.

 

[RU4Real]

Amazon launched its first satellites today, for its future internet service.

This is a good thing. It injects a little competition into Elon's StarLink realm. Also, Amazon has device integration.

It won't be long until my use case is realized - hands-off long-distance cruising.

 

[mildone]

Has been used when filing taxes.

Oh, I see. Yeah, this is a big improvement, I would think.

 

[fsg2]

Amazon launched its first satellites today, for its future internet service.

This is a good thing. It injects a little competition into Elon's StarLink realm. Also, Amazon has device integration.

It won't be long until my use case is realized - hands-off long-distance cruising.

I thought you were more a hands-on sailor?

Cool either way. I look forward to when glass pods can get swapped between self-driving skateboard chassis and EVTOLs for laid back grand tours. Add autonomous barges to that mix.

 

[RU4Real]

I thought you were more a hands-on sailor?

Cool either way. I look forward to when glass pods can get swapped between self-driving skateboard chassis and EVTOLs for laid back grand tours. Add autonomous barges to that mix.

Oh, I love to sail the boat. It's my favorite thing in the world.

But nobody wants to sail the boat for 3 weeks straight.

I don't necessarily expect the boat to handle the sails. I do expect it to advise me what the optimal sail plan is for the conditions.

But mostly I think the big advantages will be in route planning and ongoing route selection. High bandwidth at sea allows for data inputs as needed. The forecasts update every 4 hours but nobody recalculates their route that often because there's simply no time and often no bandwidth.

The other big advantages will be in systems monitoring and alerting and the ability to tell a box to turn various things on and off.

Generally it's about making things easier. If you're running a boat by yourself over a period of time, there's not much better than that.

 

[jtung230]

Oh, I see. Yeah, this is a big improvement, I would think.

But it’s a tax credit. How do they determine if they have 7500 tax liabilit?

 

[mildone]

But it’s a tax credit. How do they determine if they have 7500 tax liabilit?

I don't know. But I suppose, if some or all the tax credit isn't warranted, then that can be factored in when doing one's income taxes. Either the tax bill will increase or, if owed a refund, it'll get adjusted downwards to "repay" the unwarranted tax credit.

 

[Joey Bags]

I think it's interesting how different people view the EV momentum. The above tweets paint a picture of accelerating EV adoption everywhere. While at the same time, there's a thread on Rennlist that shows EV adoption slowing down in the US.

I haven't attempted to validate the numbers being posted at either forum. Mostly because I'm not particularly interested in what type of car people are buying. EV adoption will continue to increase as a percentage of cars on the road for awhile. Kind of a given at this point.

However, I *am* interested in people and what makes them tick. Like most things, I think people tend to champion statistics that match their wishful thinking.

To me, much more interesting than sales numbers would be, how do scientists plan to measure the environmental impacts of EV adoption. The type of propulsion isn't very interesting. The benefit to the planet, to the life on that planet? That's very interesting, or should be, to all of us.

Jalopnik had an article on this. Basically there has been little to no charging infrastructure investment for renters, so adoption will hit a plateau until this is resolved but in many locales its just too expensive for real estate companies to justify the spend. And putting 4 chargers in a 50 unit complex isn’t remotely enough.

 

[jtung230]

I don't know. But I suppose, if some or all the tax credit isn't warranted, then that can be factored in when doing one's income taxes. Either the tax bill will increase or, if owed a refund, it'll get adjusted downwards to "repay" the unwarranted tax credit.

That would be terrible.

 

[jtung230]

Wonder how the Taycan is doing vs model S? Tesla only report S/X sales.