OT: Electric vehicles

[fsg2]

Yeah, full-size pickup always seemed like a tough sales case for EV, in terms of market demo.

If the Cybertruck has one thing going for it, it's that it appeals directly to the tech geek crowd that wants to drive electric, anyway, and doesn't actually need real truck attributes (e.g. towing). An F-150, not so much.

 

[jtung230]

Yeah, full-size pickup always seemed like a tough sales case for EV, in terms of market demo.

If the Cybertruck has one thing going for it, it's that it appeals directly to the tech geek crowd that wants to drive electric, anyway, and doesn't actually need real truck attributes (e.g. towing). An F-150, not so much.

Agreed. My wife refuses to drive it because of the size. The only reason it works for me is the frunk. The truck bed is not a trunk and I need the back seats for kids. It’s a wanna be trucker’s truck. For people that use it for commercial purpose, it’s diesel engine.

ETA it’s the most practical EV truck in the market.

 

[Knight Shift]

Agreed. My wife refuses to drive it because of the size. The only reason it works for me is the frunk. The truck bed is not a trunk and I need the back seats for kids. It’s a wanna be trucker’s truck. For people that use it for commercial purpose, it’s diesel engine.

ETA it’s the most practical EV truck in the market.

We should get together with the wives. Mine is scared of the thing, especially the one pedal driving.
Funny, I don't use the frunk. I got a rollup bed cover, and throw summer stuff in the bed- beach chairs, boogie board, etc and leave it there. I guess I could use the frunk.
I like the height of the seating relative to the road. Had an SUV for as long as I could remember. The Lariat is a very comfortable ride with the ventilated and heated seats and heated steering wheel. Enjoy the power on the Parkway and Turnpike for passing.

 

[RC1991]

Agreed. My wife refuses to drive it because of the size. The only reason it works for me is the frunk. The truck bed is not a trunk and I need the back seats for kids. It’s a wanna be trucker’s truck. For people that use it for commercial purpose, it’s diesel engine.

ETA it’s the most practical EV truck in the market.

Yeah, we had a regular F150 but have a heavy 8000+ lb bumper pull travel trailer and ended up upgrading to an F350 diesel mainly for being able to tow and carry a lot of additional gear in the bed. The F150 was great though in terms of the ride. We ended up getting an Audi EV as didn’t need 2 trucks and the Lightning wouldn’t fit in our garage. We have a IC Suburu Outback as an additional car until it ends up with our daughter at school next year.

 

[Pils86]

Got behind this thread with the Rivals failures but a few comments. There have been recent studies on battery degradation and they show a loss of about 12% after 200,000 miles. As an EV owner I was happy to see this and it lines up with my inlaws that have S for about 10 years and feel their range is down 10% or maybe a little more, don't know their mileage.

Three years with the wife driving the Y and no complaints. Did tires at about 29K miles but part of it was one was flat and I couldn't plug it so just went new all around, probably would have gone another few thousand if not. Tesla wanted $1600 for the four installed OEM but the treadwear rating was not as high as I like so I upsized and got Nexen's with much higher treadwear rating for $900. Rides real nice and the sidewalls have a wet look, almost as if recently armoralled, hopefully that look stays. This was our first expense into the car besides washer fluid. Whole family still loves the car although the exclusivity has worn off a little as they have become more common. Y's can be had for less than $40K out the door in NJ now with the Fed credit and no sales tax, very good deal.

 

[Rutgers NJ]

What do all plants , trees, grasses require to survive and thrive?
Co2…
Where does Co2 come from? Decaying limestone and crustacean shells and … wait for it…. Fossil Fuel…!
Are greenhouses:
A. Warm
B. Cold
Yes! Warm! Good answer…
What gaseous compound do greenhouse operators purchase and pump into the air inside their greenhouses to make the flora grow and thrive?
Co2
What else do plants need to thrive?
If you guessed water you are

correct!
Where does fresh water come from ?
Hint (evaporation) but from what source? If you guessed Oceans you win the prize! There’s a name for this process - Hydrolysis… it requires warmth….
Since we are presently living in the Holocene period that began about 11,000 years ago - also referred to as the little ice age - the earth is actually cooler than necessary for carbon based life to thrive long term…. Avg temps go up and they go down… There is actually a deficit of Co2 in the atmosphere- fortunately human activity is stabilizing the levels by consumption of fossil fuels… albeit at a much lower PpM level than the plant life would like….
So why all the fake Climate Crisis hysteria??? Does any of this make any sense - why would we want to cut carbon emmisions??? We’re being sold a pile of dung…
Global Climate Change ideology is not based on science - it is a political movement designed to scare you into surrendering your Sovereignty, individuality, and separate you from your hard earned money to satisfy the power-lust of the political-corporate-media class

 

[Rutgers NJ]

 

[goru1869]

What do all plants , trees, grasses require to survive and thrive?
Co2…
Where does Co2 come from? Decaying limestone and crustacean shells and … wait for it…. Fossil Fuel…!
Are greenhouses:
A. Warm
B. Cold
Yes! Warm! Good answer…
What gaseous compound do greenhouse operators purchase and pump into the air inside their greenhouses to make the flora grow and thrive?
Co2
What else do plants need to thrive?
If you guessed water you are

correct!
Where does fresh water come from ?
Hint (evaporation) but from what source? If you guessed Oceans you win the prize! There’s a name for this process - Hydrolysis… it requires warmth….
Since we are presently living in the Holocene period that began about 11,000 years ago - also referred to as the little ice age - the earth is actually cooler than necessary for carbon based life to thrive long term…. Avg temps go up and they go down… There is actually a deficit of Co2 in the atmosphere- fortunately human activity is stabilizing the levels by consumption of fossil fuels… albeit at a much lower PpM level than the plant life would like….
So why all the fake Climate Crisis hysteria??? Does any of this make any sense - why would we want to cut carbon emmisions??? We’re being sold a pile of dung…
Global Climate Change ideology is not based on science - it is a political movement designed to scare you into surrendering your Sovereignty, individuality, and separate you from your hard earned money to satisfy the power-lust of the political-corporate-media class

Well done!

 

[goru1869]

Well done!

 

[RUAldo]

Was down in South Jersey for my kids sporting event. Not that I care about charging my hybrid when I’m traveling and on a tight schedule, but there were no charging stations within miles. And between the hotel stay and sports related activities I don’t even know when I would have time to charge it unless the charging station was at the hotel or venue. As I’ve said before, I know plenty of people figure out how/when to charge on trips but the charging infrastructure is a total disaster.

 

[Knight Shift]

Was down in South Jersey for my kids sporting event. Not that I care about charging my hybrid when I’m traveling and on a tight schedule, but there were no charging stations within miles. And between the hotel stay and sports related activities I don’t even know when I would have time to charge it unless the charging station was at the hotel or venue. As I’ve said before, I know plenty of people figure out how/when to charge on trips but the charging infrastructure is a total disaster.

Not trying to be mean in any way, but when you say "there were no charging stations within miles," how did you try to find them? Before or after your hotel stay?

There are numerous ways to locate charging stations for non-Tesla owners, but Tesla owners have an advantage in having the best charging network (soon to be available to EV owners).

As for hotels, there are numerous ways to look for hotels with EV charging stations through selection of amenities In Expedia or on Hilton's website.

With a minimal amount of effort and planning, it is possible to plan for charging with minimal inconvenience. Think A Better Route Planner was mentioned somewhere in this thread. More on hotels.

When we take our Volvo hybrid on trips we never look for charging. It is not a priority for us. But if we stay at a hotel or are at a mall or location that has charging, we may charge up to get some extra miles for a longer leg of the trip.

How to Find Hotels with EV Charging Stations - NerdWallet

Hotels with EV charging stations are becoming more common. Here's a look at how to find hotels with EV charging so you can save on gas during your next trip.

www.nerdwallet.com

 

[jtung230]

question on the charging in the cold issue. I plugged in my car to my level 2 charger at home (outside). The car sat all day outside yesterday. I plugged in around 9pm. It charged at 4.5 kw per hour. This is slower than usual (7kw/hr) but it was charging. Is the issue with superchargers in the extreme cold?

 

[jtung230]

She is pretty hot. I would role play with her.

 

[fg7321]

Charging at - 31 degrees

How This Guy Got Tesla Charging Right In -31 Degree Winter Weather

It turns out that if you know what you are doing, then a Tesla will fast charge without issue even at negative 31 degrees. What's the trick to getting it to charge in extreme cold?

insideevs.com

 

[jtung230]

Charging at - 31 degrees

How This Guy Got Tesla Charging Right In -31 Degree Winter Weather

It turns out that if you know what you are doing, then a Tesla will fast charge without issue even at negative 31 degrees. What's the trick to getting it to charge in extreme cold?

insideevs.com

The point is you can charge as long as you don’t need to charge. But if you need to charge, you’re eff’ed. 😀

 

[RUAldo]

Not trying to be mean in any way, but when you say "there were no charging stations within miles," how did you try to find them? Before or after your hotel stay?

The hotel was dictated by my son’s team. I’m not going to take him away from teammates so I can find a hotel with, or near, charging stations. Re: finding them, I tried a few apps including BMW and ChargeHub.

 

[RUAldo]

When we take our Volvo hybrid on trips we never look for charging. It is not a priority for us. But if we stay at a hotel or are at a mall or location that has charging, we may charge up to get some extra miles for a longer leg of the trip.

Agree - I do the same. But my point is if you are an EV owner it’s not nearly as easy as folks will have you believe. Though Not impossible by any means. But most of my travel revolves around kids sports so I don’t have a lot of flexibility and time to hunt for a charge. I’m definitely glad I went hybrid and pushed off the EV for a few years.

 

[Knight Shift]

The hotel was dictated by my son’s team. I’m not going to take him away from teammates so I can find a hotel with, or near, charging stations. Re: finding them, I tried a few apps including BMW and ChargeHub.

Well, your team's coach should be more green! 😂 (That is a joke, being totally facetious). The guy who started this thread totally disagrees with me and others on this, but this is why hybrid vehicles with decent range hybrid "motors" (35 miles are more) are a great bridge until all of the many kinks with EVs are worked out.

If we were in your situation, and we were required to stay at a hotel without charging, we would stage a protest and a sit in (ha, ha, just kidding again)--we would not take our full EV because I agree with you, it would be a total PITA to think about charging.

As far as BMW, not familiar with their app, but a lot of legacy OEM apps suck. I'm not familiar with ChargeHub, but PlugShare seems to be a big favorite, and I have heard really good things about A Better Route Planner.

With non-Teslas (and Teslas to a lesser extent), planning is key if you want to take your EV on a road trip. That is not something I plan to do any time soon, which is why we have an ICE/Hybrid for longer trips.

Agree - I do the same. But my point is if you are an EV owner it’s not nearly as easy as folks will have you believe. Though Not impossible by any means. But most of my travel revolves around kids sports so I don’t have a lot of flexibility and time to hunt for a charge. I’m definitely glad I went hybrid and pushed off the EV for a few years.

Totally agree about being an EV owner. If someone is single and an EV owner and does not have a second car, planning is absolutely key. If we had only one car in our house, it certainly would not be an EV. For daily driving on weekends and to work with home charging, it is fantastic.

 

[RUAldo]

Well, your team's coach should be more green! 😂 (That is a joke, being totally facetious). The guy who started this thread totally disagrees with me and others on this, but this is why hybrid vehicles with decent range hybrid "motors" (35 miles are more) are a great bridge until all of the many kinks with EVs are worked out.

If we were in your situation, and we were required to stay at a hotel without charging, we would stage a protest and a sit in (ha, ha, just kidding again)--we would not take our full EV because I agree with you, it would be a total PITA to think about charging.

As far as BMW, not familiar with their app, but a lot of legacy OEM apps suck. I'm not familiar with ChargeHub, but PlugShare seems to be a big favorite, and I have heard really good things about A Better Route Planner.

With non-Teslas (and Teslas to a lesser extent), planning is key if you want to take your EV on a road trip. That is not something I plan to do any time soon, which is why we have an ICE/Hybrid for longer trips.

Totally agree about being an EV owner. If someone is single and an EV owner and does not have a second car, planning is absolutely key. If we had only one car in our house, it certainly would not be an EV. For daily driving on weekends and to work with home charging, it is fantastic.

So I just found my first free charging station down at Princeton Stadium. Not bad although charging in the cold is definitely slower than usual and this is a super-charger. Up to this point I used standard public chargers in parking garages which don’t seem too cost efficient because I was getting like 6 KW so it not only took forever to charge but they were tacking on an hourly fee. If stations are charging hourly fees what’s the incentive to install superchargers? The slower the charge the more money ChargePoint makes - right?

 

[Rutgers Chris]

Was down in South Jersey for my kids sporting event. Not that I care about charging my hybrid when I’m traveling and on a tight schedule, but there were no charging stations within miles. And between the hotel stay and sports related activities I don’t even know when I would have time to charge it unless the charging station was at the hotel or venue. As I’ve said before, I know plenty of people figure out how/when to charge on trips but the charging infrastructure is a total disaster.

Are you able to use the Tesla network or is that not a thing yet? I found at least in the Camden and Burlington county areas, every new wawa had supercharging. Not sure about further south but assume it’s the case.

 

[RUAldo]

Are you able to use the Tesla network or is that not a thing yet? I found at least in the Camden and Burlington county areas, every new wawa had supercharging. Not sure about further south but assume it’s the case.

Haven’t tried Tesla not sure if my car is compatible. But, other than at AMC Theaters and few Wawas, I haven’t seen any Tesla chargers. The current state of the nationwide charging network is a total disaster. Most people don’t even realize it because they have no reason to care unless they have an EV. And the EV owners that act like it’s fine are simply delusional or rely almost exclusively on home charging.

 

[jtung230]

Haven’t tried Tesla not sure if my car is compatible. But, other than at AMC Theaters and few Wawas, I haven’t seen any Tesla chargers. The current state of the nationwide charging network is a total disaster. Most people don’t even realize it because they have no reason to care unless they have an EV. And the EV owners that act like it’s fine are simply delusional or rely almost exclusively on home charging.

I wouldn’t call it disaster but it’s inconvenient. You have to plan your trip and factor in 25% more time. The funny thing is the part I enjoy the most about EVs is not having to go to the gas station. But the downside of EVs is the lack of gas station convenience on road trips.

 

[Rutgers Chris]

Haven’t tried Tesla not sure if my car is compatible. But, other than at AMC Theaters and few Wawas, I haven’t seen any Tesla chargers. The current state of the nationwide charging network is a total disaster. Most people don’t even realize it because they have no reason to care unless they have an EV. And the EV owners that act like it’s fine are simply delusional or rely almost exclusively on home charging.

I’d check to see if it’s compatible. Not delusional at all, the Tesla network was very easy to navigate in New Jersey, they were all over the turnpike and 295 for my purposes when I didn’t have home charging and had one at a wawa a few miles away in Flemington. The one time I tried using ChargePoint charger in LBI just to see how it worked it was an absolute joke, so I’m with you there.

 

[mildone]

Ironic when one considers what kind of images the author of the captioned photo likes looking at.

 

[RUAldo]

I’d check to see if it’s compatible. Not delusional at all, the Tesla network was very easy to navigate in New Jersey, they were all over the turnpike and 295 for my purposes when I didn’t have home charging and had one at a wawa a few miles away in Flemington. The one time I tried using ChargePoint charger in LBI just to see how it worked it was an absolute joke, so I’m with you there.

I did ChargePoint recently and it was 2.5 hours for 14 miles and cost me $5.15. Makes zero sense especially when you tack on $3.50 for the garage parking fee.

 

[RC1991]

I did ChargePoint recently and it was 2.5 hours for 14 miles and cost me $5.15. Makes zero sense especially when you tack on $3.50 for the garage parking fee.

ChargePoint destination type chargers are pretty slow and expensive. Agree not really worth it. Have a ChargePoint home charger which works well and is actually much faster. On a recent road trip to BC we charged in the Vancouver area on a fast charger (BC Hydro) and it was about $8 for 41 kW and took about 24 minutes. That was about 140 miles of range and temps were in the teens. Charged up in Whistler as well and didn’t have any issues in below zero (Fahrenheit) temps.

 

[fsg2]

Ironic when one considers what kind of images the author of the captioned photo likes looking at.

I thought you weren't responding to those tools?

That guy was extra pathetic. Didn't hook anyone with his idiot ramble so, still desperate for the attention he wasn't receiving at home on a Sat night hours later, he followed up his own post with an even dumber meme.

 

[Knight Shift]

So I just found my first free charging station down at Princeton Stadium. Not bad although charging in the cold is definitely slower than usual and this is a super-charger. Up to this point I used standard public chargers in parking garages which don’t seem too cost efficient because I was getting like 6 KW so it not only took forever to charge but they were tacking on an hourly fee. If stations are charging hourly fees what’s the incentive to install superchargers? The slower the charge the more money ChargePoint makes - right?

I’d check to see if it’s compatible. Not delusional at all, the Tesla network was very easy to navigate in New Jersey, they were all over the turnpike and 295 for my purposes when I didn’t have home charging and had one at a wawa a few miles away in Flemington. The one time I tried using ChargePoint charger in LBI just to see how it worked it was an absolute joke, so I’m with you there.

I did ChargePoint recently and it was 2.5 hours for 14 miles and cost me $5.15. Makes zero sense especially when you tack on $3.50 for the garage parking fee.

ChargePoint is like an Amway scam or something. Should be called OverCharge Point.

Have said it multiple times--except for Tesla owners, the charging network for other EV owners is not ready for prime time for long distance drives. For daily driving to/from work and around town AND if you have home charging, it's great. As @jtung230 has said, no wasted time going a gas station once per week, and charging at home is cheap. But not everyone has that "luxury" if they live in an apartment, townhouse or a rental. The government forcing all vehicles to be EVs in 2035 in NJ is a delusional fantasy unless a functional charging network is in place.

 

[Rutgers NJ]

I thought you weren't responding to those tools?

That guy was extra pathetic. Didn't hook anyone with his idiot ramble so, still desperate for the attention he wasn't receiving at home on a Sat night hours later, he followed up his own post with an even dumber meme.

lmfao, seems to have hooked you Nancy. Now that was easy.

 

[RUAldo]

ChargePoint is like an Amway scam or something. Should be called OverCharge Point.

Have said it multiple times--except for Tesla owners, the charging network for other EV owners is not ready for prime time for long distance drives. For daily driving to/from work and around town AND if you have home charging, it's great. As @jtung230 has said, no wasted time going a gas station once per week, and charging at home is cheap. But not everyone has that "luxury" if they live in an apartment, townhouse or a rental. The government forcing all vehicles to be EVs in 2035 in NJ is a delusional fantasy unless a functional charging network is in place.

Yeah I’m completely baffled by the ChargePoint business model - I did it mainly because I am a newbie and trying to get an understanding of how all this charging network stuff works (or doesn’t work). ChargePoint is the equivalent of plugging my car into a regular 110 home outlet and on top of that I have to pay per hour. Total scam.

 

[Knight Shift]

Yeah I’m completely baffled by the ChargePoint business model - I did it mainly because I am a newbie and trying to get an understanding of how all this charging network stuff works (or doesn’t work). ChargePoint is the equivalent of plugging my car into a regular 110 home outlet and on top of that I have to pay per hour. Total scam.

I'm pretty naive on all the charging options and apps, except I have read in several places ABRP is great. Google maps is actually pretty good too if you search "EV chargers near me." I don't thnk I have ever charged my Lightning at a public charging station (work is kind of private and only for building tenants).

 

[mildone]

I thought you weren't responding to those tools?

That guy was extra pathetic. Didn't hook anyone with his idiot ramble so, still desperate for the attention he wasn't receiving at home on a Sat night hours later, he followed up his own post with an even dumber meme.

True, I really shouldn't. But you know how I like it when people destroy themselves with their own posts without realizing it. Might be something we all do now and then. But some folks really seem to specialize in it and that was one such case. 🙂

I know, I know. I'm a child. I'll try to do better.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

What do all plants , trees, grasses require to survive and thrive?
Co2…
Where does Co2 come from? Decaying limestone and crustacean shells and … wait for it…. Fossil Fuel…!
Are greenhouses:
A. Warm
B. Cold
Yes! Warm! Good answer…
What gaseous compound do greenhouse operators purchase and pump into the air inside their greenhouses to make the flora grow and thrive?
Co2
What else do plants need to thrive?
If you guessed water you are

correct!
Where does fresh water come from ?
Hint (evaporation) but from what source? If you guessed Oceans you win the prize! There’s a name for this process - Hydrolysis… it requires warmth….
Since we are presently living in the Holocene period that began about 11,000 years ago - also referred to as the little ice age - the earth is actually cooler than necessary for carbon based life to thrive long term…. Avg temps go up and they go down… There is actually a deficit of Co2 in the atmosphere- fortunately human activity is stabilizing the levels by consumption of fossil fuels… albeit at a much lower PpM level than the plant life would like….
So why all the fake Climate Crisis hysteria??? Does any of this make any sense - why would we want to cut carbon emmisions??? We’re being sold a pile of dung…
Global Climate Change ideology is not based on science - it is a political movement designed to scare you into surrendering your Sovereignty, individuality, and separate you from your hard earned money to satisfy the power-lust of the political-corporate-media class

I love the guys who failed middle school science telling us that plants need our CO2.
Plants make their own CO2 sport. It's produced within the mitochondria of every cell within the plant during cellular respiration. Plants are self-sufficient.

Taking trillions of tons of carbon out of the earth and putting into the oceans and atmosphere is a dumb experiment. It doesn't matter if one thinks humans are responsible for global warming. Changing the chemistry of our oceans and atmosphere is beyond stupid, especially when we now have the technology to ween off of fossil fuels, which are a finite resource anyway.

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

Yeah I’m completely baffled by the ChargePoint business model - I did it mainly because I am a newbie and trying to get an understanding of how all this charging network stuff works (or doesn’t work). ChargePoint is the equivalent of plugging my car into a regular 110 home outlet and on top of that I have to pay per hour. Total scam.

I'm completely baffled by you. You own a hybrid, right? So why the obsession about finding charging? If you're so paranoid about burning 1 drop of gasoline, why did you buy a hybrid in the first place? Isn't that the purpose?

Newsflash: You have range anxiety, because you purchased a vehicle that only gets 30 miles of electric range.

 

[mildone]

In keeping with the recent CE-style dumbing-down of the thread, I figured I'd post this...

Good Samaritan Saves Crashed Oil Tanker Driver In White-Out Conditions

The driver was covered in crude oil after his truck's tank burst during the crash

jalopnik.com

This never would have happened if we just rid the world of its dependence on oil. 😁

 

[mildone]

Non-breaking news. This new super-strong glass chemistry might help improve EV (and yes, hybrid and ICE) range a bit due to reduced weight. And might be even more crack resistant than Gorilla glass.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/corning-fusion5-glass-is-stronger-lighter-and-good-for-electric-and-autonomous-cars/

Considering Porsche has had spontaneous glass splintering issues w/some of its latest generation 911s (those that either come with lightweight glass or are ordered with it), one hopes they adopt this new glass tech as soon as it's ready.

 

[BIGRUBIGDBIGredmachine]

In keeping with the recent CE-style dumbing-down of the thread, I figured I'd post this...

Good Samaritan Saves Crashed Oil Tanker Driver In White-Out Conditions

The driver was covered in crude oil after his truck's tank burst during the crash

jalopnik.com

This never would have happened if we just rid the world of its dependence on oil. 😁

^^^so much CE butthurt lol

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

The point is you can charge as long as you don’t need to charge. But if you need to charge, you’re eff’ed. 😀

No, that's not the point at all
The real point is if you're going to spend thousands of dollars on a new tech vehicle, perhaps it's wise to spend 5-10 minutes to learn how it works.

 

[jtung230]

No, that's not the point at all
The real point is if you're going to spend thousands of dollars on a new tech vehicle, perhaps it's wise to spend 5-10 minutes to learn how it works.

Precondition if not plugged in uses the battery. If you are low on battery how do you precondition?

 

[CERU00]

Non-breaking news. This new super-strong glass chemistry might help improve EV (and yes, hybrid and ICE) range a bit due to reduced weight. And might be even more crack resistant than Gorilla glass.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/corning-fusion5-glass-is-stronger-lighter-and-good-for-electric-and-autonomous-cars/

Considering Porsche has had spontaneous glass splintering issues w/some of its latest generation 911s (those that either come with lightweight glass or are ordered with it), one hopes they adopt this new glass tech as soon as it's ready.

The article reads like a 1970 popular mechanics article touting aluminum residential wiring as a technological game changer.
This fusion5 is just a variety of well established borosilicate. I believe cost is the reason manufacturers haven't been using better glass. Until we see the cost comparison I'll remain unconvinced it will gain widespread use.