My original post had me hitting a line drive seed into the Ivy wall for a double off of Rick Sutcliffe, but I deleted it because I didn’t want to bore anyone
OT: Is Keith Hernandez right in supporting pitchers hitting batters
- Thread starter R1766U
- Start date
Never fails— A thread like this always reminds me of that time Numbers took that young, 30ish pitcher deep to CF in a softball game.
As I heard it, there was no fence; so he had to huff and puff all the way home — thought he might even need an ambulance as I recall.
As I heard it, there was no fence; so he had to huff and puff all the way home — thought he might even need an ambulance as I recall.
If you're referring to my post re: broadsiding a guy, throwing behind him & broadsiding him are two different things. You can avoid a pitch thrown behind you. You can't avoid a pitch thrown at your side. Only thing you can do is turn & take it. My apologies if you were not referring to that post.
Made my morning with your posts. Looking forward to your insights for a long time to come.Thanks.
In my experience, very, very, few "jocks" have the kind of knowledge and the ability to convey it that Zappaa does. I'm sure you can think of examples of ex-players who do not
RUdad02, I misunderstood your post, and have edited my post to omit any possible reference to you. What you say about a pitch toward the sid , surprises me; it seems to me that a pitch behind the batter would be much harder to dodge. When a ball is aimed at the side, the batter can just back out and take it. Backing out or turning doesn't help with a pitch behind the batter. But I respect your first-hand knowledge of this.
Well if they can’t they don’t stay on the air, right?
Would rather hear from somebody who has actually been there than those who watch those that do.
Camden, you can't avoid that broadside fast ball. All you can do is turn. If a guy wants to hit a batter that's one sure way he gets it done. A pitch behind you is unsettling to say the least, but can be avoided. No harm done or offence taken whatsoever by your earlier post
Speaking of guys who would play some chin music on occasion. I can remember some tussles he stirred up with the Mets in his Cub days.
As someone who doesn’t care for baseball much, the one thing I always admired about it is that the rules never changed. It’s the same game Satchel and the boys played. Every other sport has undergone major changes...
IMO the DH was major. And not for the better if you ask me.
Pitching inside and moving a batter off the plate is fine. Hitting a batter , and I totally disagree with the people who say there is a safe way to hit someone, is a totally different issue. To argue that a pitcher has a right to hit a batter because the batter is too comfortable, or that the batter has already hit two HRs, is nonsense. If a pitcher is throwing a great game and mowing guys down can a batter throw his bat at him to make him "uncomfortable"? Don't get me wrong, I am talking about deliberately hitting a batter, not pitching inside. If you think a pitcher should be able to hit a guy deliberately to send a message then a batter should be able to throw his bat at him. Batters are up there to hit. It is their job. Also, all the back in the day discussions must remember that a pitcher had to get up and hit and could be thrown at himself, but in the AL pitchers don't have to hit so they can be safe in the dugout.
What if a pitcher is getting knocked around and a guy tries to bunt for a base hit or steal a base with a ten run lead?
We get mad it that in 12 U girls softball
You talk pitching inside and moving the hitter off the plate, but not intentionally hitting the batter
The pitchers mindset is to do exactly that, but no pitcher can do that without thinking I don’t care if I hit him.
I am sorry but I miss your point completely. Running up a score or showing up your opponent are unsportsmanlike conduct. I have no idea how that compares to deliberately hitting a batter with no regard to potential injury simply because the batter is too comfortable at the plate. This thread started over a batter being hit deliberately with the opening pitch of the game because he had hit three HRs in three previous games. There was no ten run lead. Secondly, pitchers need to throw inside. And outside. If a pitch gets away and hits a batter that is unfortunate, but not intentional. This thread is about pitchers who intentionally drill hitters because the hitter is doing his job and hitting the ball. The defense is that the pitcher has the right to make the batter uncomfortable and get him off his game. My post was simply to turn it around. Why can't a batter throw his bat at a pitcher who is "on his game" to make him uncomfortable. Most people immediately say that can't or shouldn't be allowed. Well then why should hitting a batter deliberately be allowed or accepted as part of the pitcher's right to make a batter uncomfortable.
Bottom line Dpgru,
I don’t think it happens that often.
As I told you, the more common mindset is this guy is to comfortable (addressing your point)
I’m gonna knock has ass off the plate, I don’t care if I hit him.
IMO that’s the game, the outright intentional drilling of a batter is 99% always retaliation from perceived poor sportsmanship.
With all due respect, I think your scenario is so rare it’s not worth discussing...at the same time, I agree it’s happened...but not enough to worry about.
The typical discussion during your pre game meeting when going over the hitters is always, how the hell are we going to get this guy out, how do want to pitch him and defend him....NOT let’s hit him!
I think Dpgru has a point. Was playing in a semi pro league in New York's southern tier in the mid 60's. My first year in the league. We were playing St Stans, a Polish club, & the best team in the league. Bobby Klausner, a former scholarship pitcher was chucking--a big guy who could throw. I came up for a third time & we were leading 2-0. I had run both runs across & was driving him crazy on the bases. First pitch, he drilled me, broadsided me. People said you could hear the crack all over the stadium. Knew he threw at me. Could see him zero in on me. Took a couple of steps toward first, then turned & fogged my Jackie Robinson at him & went right after it & him. Big brawl. After the dust settled they threw me out of the game. I'm screaming " what about him", he threw at me. Next week at practice my manager Ralph Horard, a real good guy & a great baseball guy, tells me he had a hell of a time over me. They were going to throw me out of the league. I said what about Klausner, he threw at me. He said I knew he was going to.[my guy was in the 3rd base box when the festivities began]. He says their manager [who was playing 3rd] went over to the mound & told him to. I said, why didn't you tell me? He said I figured you could handle yourself. I said well I did.
Sorry for the personal story, but thought it was relevant to the post & discussion.
Sorry for the personal story, but thought it was relevant to the post & discussion.
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Minor league brawls and hitters getting drilled are legendary.
That stuff stays down there if you want to make it the big leagues.
In A ball they threw at you because you were a 1st round pick.
Semi Pro ball doesn’t apply, they know no better
You guys can take away anything you want from Keith.
But I’m telling you what he meant from the perspective of having thousands of big league at bats under my belt.
The old axiom you need to drill someone every now and then, is nothing more than not being afraid to pitch inside, hitting the guy is a byproduct.
No one was more feared than my dad, if anyone was going to get hit for being comfortable it was DiMaggio, Mantle and my dad, they never got hit, neither did Stargell
Do tell. It happened in the Bigs in my day. Just ask the old Dodgers & Giants. Also, I wouldn't be too dismissive of the semi-pro ball of the 50's & 60's. Lots of terrific ball players. Many of these modern bums couldn't have carried their jocks. Couple of the leagues I played in would be Triple A today. However you have one valid point. Those actions on my part in both college & semi-pro is why I wasn't in the leagues.
I’m not going to argue with you dad.
I’ll end my participation in this thread with a funny Yogi story.
He was so rarely hit by a pitch, one game some young pitcher hit him three consecutive at bats....after the third one while walking to first base he politely asked the pitcher “what are you doing, trying to hit me”
Old Dodgers, Giants beanball wars, Drysdale, Maglie and Gibson would hit there own mother. they make good books
I’ll end my participation in this thread with a funny Yogi story.
He was so rarely hit by a pitch, one game some young pitcher hit him three consecutive at bats....after the third one while walking to first base he politely asked the pitcher “what are you doing, trying to hit me”
Old Dodgers, Giants beanball wars, Drysdale, Maglie and Gibson would hit there own mother. they make good books
i can’t let this go, a couple of the leagues you played in wouldn’t be in the same stratosphere as AAA today...sorry my friend, pure craziness
With regard to retaliating after being hit, too bad Carl Furillo, Leo Durocher, Sal Maglie Jackie Robinson, Davey Williams, & Alvin Dark aren't around to tell about it. Dodgers were getting hit in one game & after one of his teammates was drilled Furillo raced across the diamond into the Giant dugout after Durocher, who he knew was order his pitchers to throw at the Dodgers. In the ensuing melee Furillo broke either his wrist or something in his hand. He missed the rest of the season. Was leading the league in hitting & just hung on to edge out Red Schoendinst by percentage points. Was able to play in the series, which the damn Yankees won again.
In another incident involving Leo's pitchers throwing at the Dodgers, Robinson pushed a bunt down toward 1st hoping tho be able to run over Maglie. Couldn't get to him, but Davey Williams, the Giant 2nd baseman covering got too much of the bag & Jackie ran over him. Williams never really played again. Latter that game Alvin Dark hit a double, & with no intention of stopping at 2nd. Came roaring into 3rd & Robinson, spikes at least belt high. Needless to say a little disagreement ensued.
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I am apparently not making myself clear. I am not talking about pitching inside and pushing a guy off the plate. I am not saying that is in the act of pushing a guy who is leaning over and taking the inside away you happen to hit him. I am talking about deliberately, intentionally hitting a batter simply because he is having a good day or a good series. I don't care what they did twenty, thirty or forty years ago. I am talking about now. It is the hitters job to hit. The pitcher to pitch. If the pitcher has the right to deliberately hurt a batter as happened in the game that prompted this thread. First pitch to the lead off batter gets hit and is removed from the game because he had hit three lead off HRs in a row. Why can't a batter do the same to the pitcher. If a pitcher throws a no hitter against a team does the lead off hitter have the right to throw the bat at him the next time they face each other? I just want consistency. If the pitcher can do it than the batter can do it, or, no one should be doing it. One or the other.
Don't know if you are aiming this at me or not, but I have essentially agreed with you. See my earlier post where I say so.
Apparently I’m not making myself clear.
The scenario you speak of where the hitter gets hit for hitting, happens so rarely it’s not worth discussing.
Hitters get hit for retaliation, not for hitting...99% of the time
I am not directing at you. I am directing it at several posters, which is why there was no direct quote cited, who have given examples of pitchers hitting batters and justifying it. My point is simple, regardless of the situation, hitting a batter in the course of pitching to him happens all the time and can not be avoided. I am only addressing situations, regardless of reason, where pitchers deliberately try to hit batters. There is no safe way to hit a guy without risking potentially serious injury (short of lobbing a pitch which can be easily evaded). Anyone who thinks pitchers have the right to do it should allow batters to do it back. Let's use your story as an example. Sop pose you were not hit by the pitch but it whistled under your chin just missing your head. On the next pitch you let go have the bat and it whistled by the pitchers knees. Missing him but shaking him up. You would have been ejected immediately for doing to him exactly what he did to you. Makes no sense to me.
Seem to remember Indians pitcher Early Wynn, who was a master at pitching high and tight, talking about pitching batting practice against his teen-age son, who was a good HS ballplayer. Early said, the kid laid two of my good curves against the fence. So I knocked him down. Occasionally there are casualties. Ray Chapman. Tony Conigliaro. These days, batters wear helmets and many have extra padding. But as Zap will attest, it is still dangerous out there.
TL
TL
Dude, we’re all friends here.
Respond to me with Zap and disagree, it’s all good and informal.
There’s no need to refer to me as some poster.
Zap I didn't say some poster, I said several posters, you were not the only one who gave examples of pitchers hitting batters. We have had many exchanges and I agree that, with the exception of the dirt bag trolls, we are all friends and fans here. I did not reply to you alone because I was including the several who made points similar to yours. But, if it will make you feel better "DAMN IT ZAP, YOU'RE WRONG!!!. That will teach you to argue with me. Go RU. Beat the hell put of everyone!
Go RU.
Exactly, whenever a pitcher hits a guy on purpose, his own team is pissed at him.
Our pitchers were afraid of Parker, Stargell and Madlock...before you hit a guy on the other team on purpose, you had to clear it with those guys.
Even if the manager wanted a guy drilled, he’d talk it over with those guys before ordering it.
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