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OT: NJ legal weed vote canceled

So Denver has a shady/crappy area where people smoke pot? Man, never seen that type of stuff in NJ. All our cities are clean and do not have shadier parts.

The thing in Denver is a lot of these degenerates congregate on the "16th Street Mall" which is a main tourist area that's all pedestrian (and tourist buses) with lots of nice hotels, restaurants, shops, bars, etc. I have been out there a few times in the last few years as I have a friend who works at one of the higher end hotels there. I've heard plenty of stories from him and a couple others I know in the area and you just see these useless people all bumming around, panhandling and ruining the experience for others.
 
like this???
16004252417_a106065913_b.jpg

I saw a guy with a sign on TV that said "Will Wrestle you for money". I'd kick that guy a $5 just for being funny.
 
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Should we ban painkillers because kids get into their parents' medicine cabinet?
I said this earlier about the pain pills. What about cough syrup or Vanilla Extract? Maybe Whipped cream too? I don't want anyone to mistake where I live, but at the senior prom, the girls were not allowed to bring tampons. This was 3years ago when it first surfaced about the soaking of tampons in alcohol. There were Police Officers checking bags. We are a very small, safe town, but still they wanted to be certain no one was drinking at this event. Now yes could you drink prior of course..
 
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I said this earlier about the pain pills. What about cough syrup or vanilla extract? Someone just posted about that the recently. I don't want anyone to mistake where I live, but at the senior prom, the girls were not allowed to bring tampons. This was 3years ago when it first surfaced about the soaking of tampons in alcohol. There were Police Officers checking bags. We are a very small, safe town, but still they wanted to be certain no one was drinking at this event. Now yes could you drink prior of course..

It's the same thing with anything. People abuse medicine, alcohol, food...I mean the list of things someone could get addicted to and hurt themselves and others is endless.

But yet, I've never heard any of dying of marijuana.

Taking too many pills? Yes

Drinking too much and choking to death on vomit? Yes

Obesity and heart disease? Yes
 
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So Denver has a shady/crappy area where people smoke pot? Man, never seen that type of stuff in NJ. All our cities are clean and do not have shadier parts.

Also, the main cities where New Jerseyans congregate- Newark, Jersey City, Asbury...have all welcomed the legislation.

Colorado, Washington State and California also have top 5 economies nationally. Could be other factors but sure hasn't slowed them down.
 
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The quick and easy answer is no, because those other drugs are much more potentially, and immediately, dangerous to the person taking them. But some arguments could be made for legalization of all such drugs:

1. Control the production and distribution so that fewer people die because their drugs contain fentanyl or carfentanil, or other unhealthy and/or deadly substances.

2. Raise revenue via sin taxes.

3. Reduce the DEA, LEO, court and prison system costs associated with those substances being illegal.

4. Invite those people with addictions to such substances to be more willing to seek help without fear of legal complications.

5. Cut back on the profits for drug cartels, gangs, etc.

Easy solution is do what Portugal has done.

Portugal has decriminalized all drugs. They have had addiction rates plummet across the board and are widely seen as a model.
 
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It's the same thing with anything. People abuse medicine, alcohol, food...I mean the list of things someone could get addicted to and hurt themselves and others is endless.

But yet, I've never heard any of dying of marijuana.

Taking too many pills? Yes

Drinking too much and choking to death on vomit? Yes

Obesity and heart disease? Yes

It’s the only reason tobacco is legal and marijuana illegal because:

tobacco is difficult to grow individually so big corporations are needed and can profit off of it

Marijuana is easy to grow individually so the corporations/government would be left out of the potential profits


Always heard that rumor.
 
Still waiting for a definition of “drug” and how marijuana, tobacco, alcohol, Advil, etc. are different from each other.
 
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The thing in Denver is a lot of these degenerates congregate on the "16th Street Mall" which is a main tourist area that's all pedestrian (and tourist buses) with lots of nice hotels, restaurants, shops, bars, etc. I have been out there a few times in the last few years as I have a friend who works at one of the higher end hotels there. I've heard plenty of stories from him and a couple others I know in the area and you just see these useless people all bumming around, panhandling and ruining the experience for others.


That stinks. Kinda like Philly? I was there for business last year and saw a bunch of bums in the business area of the city
 
That stinks. Kinda like Philly? I was there for business last year and saw a bunch of bums in the business area of the city
Are you sure? I dress like a bum and don't shower as often as I probably should. And it wouldn't be uncommon for me to be wandering about in business areas of various cities now and then. :)
 
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It’s the only reason tobacco is legal and marijuana illegal because:

tobacco is difficult to grow individually so big corporations are needed and can profit off of it

Marijuana is easy to grow individually so the corporations/government would be left out of the potential profits


Always heard that rumor.

There's a lot more than one factor but Big Tobacco and its lobbying role is one reason they have gotten away with so much. On weed, it's also Big Pharma, belief in Reefer Madness, and prejudice against those interpreted to be usual users (hippies and minorities) instead of recognizing old folks use it for pain.
 
Are you sure? I dress like a bum and don't shower as often as I probably should. And it wouldn't be uncommon for me to be wandering about in business areas of various cities now and then. :)
And you want to cuddle?:chairshot: You can read to me over the phone thank you very much..[jumpingsmile] BTW..There was a thread on the CE side started in your honor yesterday..not sure if you saw it?
 
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And you want to cuddle?:chairshot: You can read to me over the phone thank you very much..[jumpingsmile] BTW..There was a thread on the CE side started in your honor yesterday..not sure if you saw it?
LOL. I almost always shower before cuddling. Well, cuddling people, that is. Sheep don't like the smell of soap so much.

And yes, I saw it just now, thanks.
 
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It’s the only reason tobacco is legal and marijuana illegal because:

tobacco is difficult to grow individually so big corporations are needed and can profit off of it

Marijuana is easy to grow individually so the corporations/government would be left out of the potential profits


Always heard that rumor.
Tobacco is very easy to grow, and it grows just about anywhere in the US. Check your local laws before growing your own.
 
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There's a lot more than one factor but Big Tobacco and its lobbying role is one reason they have gotten away with so much. On weed, it's also Big Pharma, belief in Reefer Madness, and prejudice against those interpreted to be usual users (hippies and minorities) instead of recognizing old folks use it for pain.

Great point. The Pharma (industry in which I make my living, ha ha) $ pipeline is already in place, just have to add one more talking point when meeting with legislators. I never thought of that...
 
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Legalization is inevitable. They are only a few votes shy. Probably will happen within 12 months which is 12 months of missing out on tax revenues. The state is dumb and has always been late to the punch.
 
There's a lot more than one factor but Big Tobacco and its lobbying role is one reason they have gotten away with so much. On weed, it's also Big Pharma, belief in Reefer Madness, and prejudice against those interpreted to be usual users (hippies and minorities) instead of recognizing old folks use it for pain.

The one industry that makes the most off the drug war is law enforcement. The whole reason for Reefer madness was all the G-Men from the Bureau of Prohibition were going to lose their jobs when the 21st amendment was ratified.

The G-Men replaced the stereotype of the Italian mafiaso & drunk Irishmen shooting up Chicago and New York with this new narrative of Mexicans smoking hemp flower cigarettes & robbing the locals in Texas and Arizona. Hemp was a mid tier cash crop with some industrial uses that could be replaced. Nobody was getting rich off of it, and frankly those farmers would be better off growing corn or potatoes.

The head of the Bureau of Prohibition, Harry Anslinger, went to Congress and essentially asked for the funding to build a wall. And Congress agreed. And they put a tax on hemp to fund the wall. $100/oz which is $3800/oz in today’s money. (For any history buffs of this time period, Harry Anslinger is an interesting story)

Even today, you don’t see tobacco companies & pharmaceutical reps writing OpEds over marijuana smokers terrorizing people or worried about the dangers of drug use (legal or illegal) on a teen brain.
 
On the topic of “drugs”, what’s the deal with Kratom?

Heard some very good things (such as using it to get off heroin).
Also heard it can get out of hand quickly.
i take Kratom daily for my severe neuropathy in my legs.. recent law changes in my state make getting opiates(5mg oxycodone every 6 hours) a true pain in the ass.. kratom is very safe and it keeps my pain in check... here is a link for you

https://www.healthline.com/health/food-nutrition/is-kratom-safe#use
 
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The one industry that makes the most off the drug war is law enforcement. The whole reason for Reefer madness was all the G-Men from the Bureau of Prohibition were going to lose their jobs when the 21st amendment was ratified.

The G-Men replaced the stereotype of the Italian mafiaso & drunk Irishmen shooting up Chicago and New York with this new narrative of Mexicans smoking hemp flower cigarettes & robbing the locals in Texas and Arizona. Hemp was a mid tier cash crop with some industrial uses that could be replaced. Nobody was getting rich off of it, and frankly those farmers would be better off growing corn or potatoes.

The head of the Bureau of Prohibition, Harry Anslinger, went to Congress and essentially asked for the funding to build a wall. And Congress agreed. And they put a tax on hemp to fund the wall. $100/oz which is $3800/oz in today’s money. (For any history buffs of this time period, Harry Anslinger is an interesting story)

Even today, you don’t see tobacco companies & pharmaceutical reps writing OpEds over marijuana smokers terrorizing people or worried about the dangers of drug use (legal or illegal) on a teen brain.

This is definitely a big issue in NJ where you have 565 fiefdoms relying on these kind of revenue. Not sure about other states and how many have municipalities engaging in this behavior.

For Profit prisons are another one.
 
You don't even have to go into the private prisons argument. That's just a corrolary business that developed after all these police departments realized money is no object when you have a War on Drugs to fight.

Englishtown: population 1,979, 74 cannabis arrests in 2016 (3.7% of population)
Mendham: population 5,846, 171 cannabis arrests in 2016 (2.9% of population)
Flemington: population 4,654, 84 cannabis arrests in 2016 (1.8% of population)

I left out the shore towns with seasonal populations. You would think Mendham is a seedy town with drugs all over the streets. How much more money does this police department need for "Drug Recognition Experts" when they find someone every other day?
 
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You don't even have to go into the private prisons argument. That's just a corrolary business that developed after all these police departments realized money is no object when you have a War on Drugs to fight.

Englishtown: population 1,979, 74 cannabis arrests in 2016 (3.7% of population)
Mendham: population 5,846, 171 cannabis arrests in 2016 (2.9% of population)
Flemington: population 4,654, 84 cannabis arrests in 2016 (1.8% of population)

I left out the shore towns with seasonal populations. You would think Mendham is a seedy town with drugs all over the streets. How much more money does this police department need for "Drug Recognition Experts" when they find someone every other day?

To be fair, none of those 74 cannabis arrests in Englishtown were residents. :)
 
The one industry that makes the most off the drug war is law enforcement. The whole reason for Reefer madness was all the G-Men from the Bureau of Prohibition were going to lose their jobs when the 21st amendment was ratified.

The G-Men replaced the stereotype of the Italian mafiaso & drunk Irishmen shooting up Chicago and New York with this new narrative of Mexicans smoking hemp flower cigarettes & robbing the locals in Texas and Arizona. Hemp was a mid tier cash crop with some industrial uses that could be replaced. Nobody was getting rich off of it, and frankly those farmers would be better off growing corn or potatoes.

The head of the Bureau of Prohibition, Harry Anslinger, went to Congress and essentially asked for the funding to build a wall. And Congress agreed. And they put a tax on hemp to fund the wall. $100/oz which is $3800/oz in today’s money. (For any history buffs of this time period, Harry Anslinger is an interesting story)

Even today, you don’t see tobacco companies & pharmaceutical reps writing OpEds over marijuana smokers terrorizing people or worried about the dangers of drug use (legal or illegal) on a teen brain.

do you think the tobacco and pharma reps, or those representing them like the GOP for instance, sign their real names and job titles when they write those?

or when responding on social media.

Russia didn't invent misinformation or social media manipulation.

they just mimic the real pros.
 
do you think the tobacco and pharma reps, or those representing them like the GOP for instance, sign their real names and job titles when they write those?

or when responding on social media.

Russia didn't invent misinformation or social media manipulation.

they just mimic the real pros.
The only negative Op Eds I've seen are from LEOs and old men who still believe the government lie that cannabis is dangerous.

Altria (Marlboro) has been buying up patents on vape delivery technologies & has taken sizable positions in Cronus (a Canadian cannabis producer), Juul, & Pax (the cannabis version of Juul). They would love nothing more than to plow over those tobacco fields in VA & NC and market Marlboro Green.

Big Pharm is in the business to make money, and they would love nothing more than being able to sell proprietary blends of oil pens subsidized by insurance cos. Look at GW Pharm, they got FDA approval for a seizure treatment using cannabis based CBD. An annual supply retails for $32,000.
 
The only negative Op Eds I've seen are from LEOs and old men who still believe the government lie that cannabis is dangerous.

Altria (Marlboro) has been buying up patents on vape delivery technologies & has taken sizable positions in Cronus (a Canadian cannabis producer), Juul, & Pax (the cannabis version of Juul). They would love nothing more than to plow over those tobacco fields in VA & NC and market Marlboro Green.

Big Pharm is in the business to make money, and they would love nothing more than being able to sell proprietary blends of oil pens subsidized by insurance cos. Look at GW Pharm, they got FDA approval for a seizure treatment using cannabis based CBD. An annual supply retails for $32,000.
There's been talk that if growing Hemp becomes legal, tobacco road might get a new name .
Hemp Ave.
One of the products produced from hemp is CBD from the plant's flowers. and the oil from that is said to treat ills from arthritic pain to anxiety.
Big Pharma would love to have that cash crop and be able to produce the other every day products hemp can produce

Of course if marijuana growing becomes big business, I expect the Tobacco companies to get in on it like you're saying
 
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The only negative Op Eds I've seen are from LEOs and old men who still believe the government lie that cannabis is dangerous.

Altria (Marlboro) has been buying up patents on vape delivery technologies & has taken sizable positions in Cronus (a Canadian cannabis producer), Juul, & Pax (the cannabis version of Juul). They would love nothing more than to plow over those tobacco fields in VA & NC and market Marlboro Green.

Big Pharm is in the business to make money, and they would love nothing more than being able to sell proprietary blends of oil pens subsidized by insurance cos. Look at GW Pharm, they got FDA approval for a seizure treatment using cannabis based CBD. An annual supply retails for $32,000.

don't kid yourself. the prohibition forces are working every media they can, and they don't "out" who they really are while doing so.

as i've said before, i went to college in the late 60s early 70s.

we were all sure mj would be legal within a few yrs back then, yet it went the exact opposite direction.

don't underestimate the moneyed interests working against actual sanity on the subject.

after centuries of use, still nobody had ever been seriously harmed by it in 1970, or 1980, or 1990 or 2000.

don't just assume another 50, or 40, or 30, or 20 yrs of it not being harmful, is going to bring sanity to the issue now.

sanity and fairness mean absolutely nothing to moneyed interests opposed to legalization.. or the totally ignorant on the subject, who don't let their total ignorance get in the way of their politics.
 
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SIAP -- here's a piece from the front page of today's New York Times about the demise of the legalization proposal: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/27/nyregion/marijuana-legalization-new-jersey.html

after centuries of use, still nobody had ever been seriously harmed by it in 1970, or 1980, or 1990 or 2000.

Camden -- Thanks for linking that article. I didn't realize that Univ of Colorado published a study on Monday showing a three-fold increase in UCHealth emergency room visits related to marijuana after legalization in Colorado. The Times article doesn't indicate if the publication of the UC study influenced the NJ vote, or the timing of both on the same day was just coincidental.

Also, the sublink indicates the UC study was prompted after 3 marijuana related deaths at the hospital. I'm not sure how that reconciles with the claims of some that no one has been seriously harmed by marijuana.
 
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Camden -- Thanks for linking that article. I didn't realize that Univ of Colorado published a study on Monday showing a three-fold increase in UCHealth emergency room visits related to marijuana after legalization in Colorado. The Times article doesn't indicate if the publication of the UC study influenced the NJ vote, or the timing of both on the same day was just coincidental.

Also, the sublink indicates the UC study was prompted after 3 marijuana related deaths at the hospital. I'm not sure how that reconciles with the claims of some that no one has been seriously harmed by marijuana.

some of those numbers given look very suspicious to me, and saying there were 3 deaths related to edibles while giving absolutely no cause of death specifics, is just terrible journalism, and most likely fraudulent.

and strange how not one hospital was actually named, thus making the validity of the reporting impossible to verify.

also no mention what so ever as to what else was in their system, or their BAC.

as for all the corruption and other "roll out" hurdles, those are very convenient poison pill measures to defeat legalization, when they can't defeat it on it's face.

as i said above, don't underestimate how hard the moneyed interests, religious wackos, and the ignorant who love their booze, will fight this.
 
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some of those numbers given look very suspicious to me, and saying there were 3 deaths related to edibles while giving absolutely no cause of death specifics, is just terrible journalism, and most likely fraudulent.

and strange how not one hospital was actually named, thus making the validity of the reporting impossible to verify.

also no mention what so ever as to what else was in their system, or their BAC.

as for all the corruption and other "roll out" hurdles, those are very convenient poison pill measures to defeat legalization, when they can't defeat it on it's face.

as i said above, don't underestimate how hard the moneyed interests, religious wackos, and the ignorant who love their booze, will fight this.

I can't think of a single reason to think that the Times would somehow be biased against legalization. And I certainly wouldn't expect the Times, which is 2000 miles away from Colorado, to go into great detail on the cases.
 
I can't think of a single reason to think that the Times would somehow be biased against legalization. And I certainly wouldn't expect the Times, which is 2000 miles away from Colorado, to go into great detail on the cases.

"Three deaths in Colorado tied to edible products also prompted the study".

3 mj deaths would be a big enough story that one might want to at least pin down exactly what it was they actually died from.

if they actually died from mj, it would be a huge story all over the news, with 24/7 coverage on Fox News. (being the first ever in history and all).

not some obscure blurb with "tied to" but no actual specific connection notated.

and as for the vomiting victims, i wonder how many of those had a blood alcohol content close to 0.2.

there are literally tens of millions of people who have smoked mj regularly for decades.

if there was a real related medical issue, we would have known about it a long time ago.

and as so many of the Times' commenters pointed out, the set back in NJ is most likely about not enough palms being greased enough, or being greased by big pharma and other opponents to sanity on the issue.

would be hilarious if we had civics classes in school, on how laws are really passed or defeated.
 
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Camden -- Thanks for linking that article. I didn't realize that Univ of Colorado published a study on Monday showing a three-fold increase in UCHealth emergency room visits related to marijuana after legalization in Colorado. The Times article doesn't indicate if the publication of the UC study influenced the NJ vote, or the timing of both on the same day was just coincidental.

Also, the sublink indicates the UC study was prompted after 3 marijuana related deaths at the hospital. I'm not sure how that reconciles with the claims of some that no one has been seriously harmed by marijuana.
From the NYT article:

Marijuana ER Visits Climb in Denver Hospital Study
By The Associated Press
March 25, 2019

Five years after Colorado first legalized marijuana, a new study shows pot's bad effects are sending more people to the emergency room.

Inhaled marijuana caused the most severe problems at one large Denver area hospital. Marijuana-infused foods and candies, called edibles, also led to trouble. Patients came to the ER with symptoms such as repeated vomiting, racing hearts and psychotic episodes.

The study, published Monday in Annals of Internal Medicine, stemmed from tales of tourists needing emergency care after gobbling too many marijuana gummies.

"It was hard to know if these were just anecdotes or if there was a true phenomenon," said lead author Dr. Andrew Monte of UCHealth University of Colorado Hospital.

Three deaths in Colorado tied to edible products also prompted the study.

Emergency room records from Monte's hospital show a three-fold increase in marijuana cases since the state became the first to allow sales of recreational marijuana in January 2014. Nearly a third of patients were admitted to the hospital, evidence of severe symptoms, Monte said.

In 2012, the ER saw an average of one patient every other day with a marijuana-caused problem. By 2016, the count was two to three per day.

That's not enough to swamp the emergency department, Monte said, but it stresses an already burdened system.

Most people can use marijuana safely, Monte said, but with its increased availability and higher THC concentrations, "we may be seeing more adverse drug reactions," he said.

THC is the part of marijuana that gets people high.

A growing cannabis industry promotes the drug as a cure-all while downplaying dangers, said Dr. Erik Messamore, a psychiatrist at Northeast Ohio Medical University who wasn't involved in the research. More than 30 states now allow marijuana for at least medical use. New Jersey is debating becoming the 11th state to approve recreational pot. The U.S. government considers marijuana illegal.

"You can't trust the people who sell the drugs to be upfront with the risk," Messamore said, calling for warning labels similar to those on tobacco products.

The analysis confirmed edibles are trouble. Statewide, they made up less than 1 percent of total cannabis sales, measured by THC content. Yet 11 percent of ER visits were triggered by edibles.

Monte said edibles are too dangerous to be part of the recreational marketplace. Slow to kick in, their effects last too long for a good party drug, he said. They work better for those who want to use them as medicine.

Yet information on safe dosing is lacking, as Denver resident Arlene Galchinsky learned. She took a marijuana gummy for pain on top of a prescription narcotic, becoming so disoriented her husband called paramedics. Galchinsky, 79, didn't go to the ER, but the experience shook her up.

"It was extremely scary," she said of the feeling. "When was this going to go away? It was so frightening."

In the state-funded study , there were 2,567 emergency visits at the Denver hospital caused by marijuana from 2012-2016. It's not just tourists; 9 out of 10 cases were Colorado residents.

Seventeen percent of the visits were for uncontrolled bouts of vomiting. It was most often from inhaled marijuana, not edibles.

Twelve percent of the cases were for acute psychosis, where people without a history of mental disorders lose touch with reality. That was more frequently seen with edibles.

Intoxication and heart problems were other common complaints.

In an editorial, Dr. Nora Volkow, director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse, called for more research on the benefits and harms of marijuana. She and co-author Ruben Baler wrote there is an "urgent need" for greater oversight of manufacturing and labeling as marijuana use increases with state legalization.

Monte, an ER doctor who specializes in toxicology, doesn't use marijuana. "I'm too busy," he said. "I can't spend time being high."

___

The Associated Press Health & Science Department receives support from the Howard Hughes Medical Institute's Department of Science Education. The AP is solely responsible for all content.

___

Follow AP's complete marijuana coverage: https://apnews.com/Marijuana .
 
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She took a marijuana gummy for pain on top of a prescription narcotic, becoming so disoriented her husband called paramedics.

There's no law that can prevent "stupid".

A little perspective is called for, here, as well (perspective not offered by the Times). UCH Denver sees 54,000 ED patients annually. If they're getting "two to three" marijuana cases per day that means that 2% of their ED caseload is cannabis-related.
 
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